DLC and rust.

Discuss Spyderco's products and history.

How effective is DLC, in your experience, at preventing corrosion?

DLC seems to be impervious to rust
13
34%
DLC seems to do very little to prevent rust
4
11%
DLC helps decently, but is far from rust proof
9
24%
I've had mixed experiences with DLC
1
3%
It completely depends on the steel
3
8%
I haven't exposed my knives to a corrosive environment yet
8
21%
 
Total votes: 38

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Pelagic
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Re: DLC and rust.

Postby Pelagic » Wed Nov 27, 2019 1:15 am

Chris P Bacon, no I have done nothing to the blade. I'm going to attempt to clean it when I have time and go from there. Like I said previously I may ospho it then lube it or use tuff glide. Not sure yet.
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Wed Aug 14, 2019 10:20 pm
Are you a magician? :eek:
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Thu Apr 04, 2019 4:32 pm
You're the lone wolf of truth howling into the winds of ignorance
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Sat Jun 15, 2019 9:17 pm
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Re: DLC and rust.

Postby AccountDeletedUserRequest » Wed Nov 27, 2019 2:53 am

Chris_P_Bacon wrote:
Tue Nov 26, 2019 8:22 pm
Sal himself stated in a post (that I cannot be bothered to hunt down) that DLC was NOT to prevent rust, that in fact could actually hide it, till it became a problem (or something to that effect).

I was always under the impression from various posts, that DLC's benefit was to help hold oil in place, and that any added corrosion resistance (verses naked steel) was simply from the oil itself.

I'd been meaning to ask you Pelagic, had you oiled that 4v DLC blade, ever since you posted about it rusting a week or so ago.

I'm glad emanual brought that up here, and reminded everyone.

But Meatman, just throwing this out there, you down to repeat that exact same test, this time with an oiled blade so we can see if it actually helps, and to what extent?
I have never oiled a DLC blade, but have still experienced unparalleled levels of corrosion resistance on my DLC knives.

Imagine running Meat Man's salt experiment over 200 times on a DLC Manix XL. That's what I've done. Flawless to this day.

Unfortunately I don't have any uncoated S30V in my collection right now or I'd salt test the bare and DLC blades side by side, confident in the outcome I'd get.

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emanuel
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Re: DLC and rust.

Postby emanuel » Wed Nov 27, 2019 3:13 am

For anyone interested, Wikipedia cover the basics of this material pretty nicely for once: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diamond-like_carbon , the sources at the end will go more in dept about it, mostly manufacturing methods.

This really sticks out: "For example a coating of only 2 μm thickness of ta-C increases the resistance of common (e.g., type 304) stainless steel against abrasive wear, changing its lifetime in such service from one week to 85 years." - what a massive change in surface wear resistance.

I'm not sure Spyderco uses the pure form of DLC with SP3 bonds (which seems to be by far the hardest and less porous, but can only get a glassy, reflective, smooth finish), but maybe Sal could tell us what variant it is and based on that it's actual properties could be better laid out. Either way, I'm a big fan of this stuff on some knives. Imagine a spring run in Maxamet with a glossy DLC that provides true corrosion immunity and perfect surface protection against scratches and wear. That would be one step closer towards Sal's vision of a diamond edge. :D

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Pelagic
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Re: DLC and rust.

Postby Pelagic » Wed Nov 27, 2019 6:53 am

Vivi wrote:
Wed Nov 27, 2019 2:53 am
Chris_P_Bacon wrote:
Tue Nov 26, 2019 8:22 pm
Sal himself stated in a post (that I cannot be bothered to hunt down) that DLC was NOT to prevent rust, that in fact could actually hide it, till it became a problem (or something to that effect).

I was always under the impression from various posts, that DLC's benefit was to help hold oil in place, and that any added corrosion resistance (verses naked steel) was simply from the oil itself.

I'd been meaning to ask you Pelagic, had you oiled that 4v DLC blade, ever since you posted about it rusting a week or so ago.

I'm glad emanual brought that up here, and reminded everyone.

But Meatman, just throwing this out there, you down to repeat that exact same test, this time with an oiled blade so we can see if it actually helps, and to what extent?
I have never oiled a DLC blade, but have still experienced unparalleled levels of corrosion resistance on my DLC knives.

Imagine running Meat Man's salt experiment over 200 times on a DLC Manix XL. That's what I've done. Flawless to this day.

Unfortunately I don't have any uncoated S30V in my collection right now or I'd salt test the bare and DLC blades side by side, confident in the outcome I'd get.
Trust me, uncoated s30v rusts. And I haven't had a spot yet on my DLC manix XL. I should probably make a video of me tossing it in the discharge of the dredge and picking back up again, and then showing those results.
Pancake wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 10:20 pm
Are you a magician? :eek:
Nate wrote:
Thu Apr 04, 2019 4:32 pm
You're the lone wolf of truth howling into the winds of ignorance
Doeswhateveraspidercan wrote:
Sat Jun 15, 2019 9:17 pm
You are a nobody got it?

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Pelagic
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Re: DLC and rust.

Postby Pelagic » Wed Nov 27, 2019 6:55 am

emanuel wrote:
Wed Nov 27, 2019 3:13 am
For anyone interested, Wikipedia cover the basics of this material pretty nicely for once: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diamond-like_carbon , the sources at the end will go more in dept about it, mostly manufacturing methods.

This really sticks out: "For example a coating of only 2 μm thickness of ta-C increases the resistance of common (e.g., type 304) stainless steel against abrasive wear, changing its lifetime in such service from one week to 85 years." - what a massive change in surface wear resistance.

I'm not sure Spyderco uses the pure form of DLC with SP3 bonds (which seems to be by far the hardest and less porous, but can only get a glassy, reflective, smooth finish), but maybe Sal could tell us what variant it is and based on that it's actual properties could be better laid out. Either way, I'm a big fan of this stuff on some knives. Imagine a spring run in Maxamet with a glossy DLC that provides true corrosion immunity and perfect surface protection against scratches and wear. That would be one step closer towards Sal's vision of a diamond edge. :D
Why do I feel like a thin later of A/B epoxy paint is better than DLC?
Pancake wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 10:20 pm
Are you a magician? :eek:
Nate wrote:
Thu Apr 04, 2019 4:32 pm
You're the lone wolf of truth howling into the winds of ignorance
Doeswhateveraspidercan wrote:
Sat Jun 15, 2019 9:17 pm
You are a nobody got it?

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Re: DLC and rust.

Postby The Deacon » Wed Nov 27, 2019 7:42 am

Pelagic wrote:
Wed Nov 27, 2019 6:55 am
Why do I feel like a thin later of A/B epoxy paint is better than DLC?

No matter what type of coating you use, the edge grind will still be bare steel, and rust that begins there can creep under the coating and remain undetected there until it's severe.
Paul
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Re: DLC and rust.

Postby The Meat man » Wed Nov 27, 2019 9:02 am

Alright here is round two of the experiment. This time prior to the water and salt treatment, I heavily coated the blade in mineral oil, let sit for several minutes, then wiped off the excess. Here are the results about 10 hours later:

Image

The oil didn't seem to help a whole lot. Perhaps Bloke is right; the previous rust spots created points vulnerable to the formation of new rust. Regardless, as with the first test, one wipe with a paper towel cleaned everything off:

Image

I might try the same experiment (with oil) but on the other side of the blade.
- Connor

Jesus said, "I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me." (John 14:6)

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Re: DLC and rust.

Postby Monty » Wed Nov 27, 2019 9:08 am

The Meat man wrote:
Wed Nov 27, 2019 9:02 am
Alright here is round two of the experiment. This time prior to the water and salt treatment, I heavily coated the blade in mineral oil, let sit for several minutes, then wiped off the excess. Here are the results about 10 hours later:


The oil didn't seem to help a whole lot. Perhaps Bloke is right; the previous rust spots created points vulnerable to the formation of new rust. Regardless, as with the first test, one wipe with a paper towel cleaned everything off:


I might try the same experiment (with oil) but on the other side of the blade.
I'll mail you a jar of seawater, this test is getting interesting.

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Re: DLC and rust.

Postby AccountDeletedUserRequest » Wed Nov 27, 2019 12:09 pm

The Meat man wrote:
Wed Nov 27, 2019 9:02 am
Alright here is round two of the experiment. This time prior to the water and salt treatment, I heavily coated the blade in mineral oil, let sit for several minutes, then wiped off the excess. Here are the results about 10 hours later:

Image

The oil didn't seem to help a whole lot. Perhaps Bloke is right; the previous rust spots created points vulnerable to the formation of new rust. Regardless, as with the first test, one wipe with a paper towel cleaned everything off:

Image

I might try the same experiment (with oil) but on the other side of the blade.
I don't have any 4V on hand at the moment, but I know uncoated 4V would look worse after ten hours in salt water.

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Re: DLC and rust.

Postby The Meat man » Wed Nov 27, 2019 3:10 pm

Vivi wrote:
Wed Nov 27, 2019 12:09 pm

I don't have any 4V on hand at the moment, but I know uncoated 4V would look worse after ten hours in salt water.
That's what I figured. It seems to indicate that the DLC coating does help, but can't make a rust-prone steel completely rust-proof. As Pelagic said, perhaps the best way to think about it is that the DLC just adds points to a steel's corrosion resistance. That would explain too why you don't have any rust issues with coated S30V. It's already a pretty stainless steel; add the DLC and it just bumps it up to the point where it isn't a problem for you.

I'd really be curious what your experiences would be if you were to summertime EDC a DLC, non-stainless steel for awhile.
- Connor

Jesus said, "I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me." (John 14:6)

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Re: DLC and rust.

Postby AccountDeletedUserRequest » Wed Nov 27, 2019 3:19 pm

The Meat man wrote:
Wed Nov 27, 2019 3:10 pm
Vivi wrote:
Wed Nov 27, 2019 12:09 pm

I don't have any 4V on hand at the moment, but I know uncoated 4V would look worse after ten hours in salt water.
That's what I figured. It seems to indicate that the DLC coating does help, but can't make a rust-prone steel completely rust-proof. As Pelagic said, perhaps the best way to think about it is that the DLC just adds points to a steel's corrosion resistance. That would explain too why you don't have any rust issues with coated S30V. It's already a pretty stainless steel; add the DLC and it just bumps it up to the point where it isn't a problem for you.

I'd really be curious what your experiences would be if you were to summertime EDC a DLC, non-stainless steel for awhile.
My experience is a little different.

I'll rust uncoated S30V during one day of summer IWB carry. I did it to my first Manix XL, which was satin finish.

I have been unable to rust my Manix XL anywhere after at least 200 days of IWB summer carry.

I never rusted a DLC PM2 blade after 5 years of IWB summers, even though the liners had rust over 2mm thick built up.

My experience has not been that DLC increases the corrosion resistance. My experience has been that it makes the blades impervious to rust.

I'd be very interested in IWB carrying a DLC tool steel knife this summer, because that would give me more information about what DLC can do for corrosion resistance. I don't expect Spyderco to run any of the models I like in that configuration unfortunately.

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Re: DLC and rust.

Postby rycen » Wed Nov 27, 2019 6:57 pm

rycen, post: 12835737, member: 121839 wrote:This is very interesting and I appreciate information.

Could you also speak to DLC as a relates to helping rust resistance?
Ionbond, post: 12835892, member: 205043 wrote:NONE/ZERO/ZIP of the Family of Vacuum Deposited Coatings ARE GOOD Corrosion Barriers, That being said, these coatings can’t rust because these is no presents of Iron/Ferrite in the coating itself.. It’s a coating only 2-4 Microns in thickness with microscopic pin holes, corrosion can start there and on the cutting edge migrating under the coating causing rust…

The Benefit of coatings for corrosion is they absorb oil like a sponge, Maintain your knife, rinse it off from time to time and reapply a coat of oil, wipe dry and you’ll have Great Corrosion Protection…

We all want a knife that, Won't Rust, Light Weight, Stays Sharp forever, with the latest materials.. It doesn't exist, But were working on it... almost forgot.. For Under $100.00 Made in the USA...

Darrell

Full thread here

https://www.bladeforums.com/threads/dlc ... n.1122962/

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Re: DLC and rust.

Postby Bloke » Wed Nov 27, 2019 7:17 pm

The Deacon wrote:
Wed Nov 27, 2019 7:42 am
No matter what type of coating you use, the edge grind will still be bare steel, and rust that begins there can creep under the coating and remain undetected there until it's severe.
My view exactly, Paul! ;)

I can't help but think once you see signs of rust on the surface of any coating it's all over and rust is bubbling away underneath doing it's thing unseen.
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Re: DLC and rust.

Postby ladybug93 » Wed Nov 27, 2019 8:04 pm

this is why we need a blacked-out dlc manix 2 salt. ;)

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Re: DLC and rust.

Postby Chumango » Wed Nov 27, 2019 8:35 pm

emanuel wrote:
Tue Nov 26, 2019 12:07 pm

If you take the DLC by itself only, yes, you are correct. But thanks to surface tension, oil will infiltrate and bond to do sides of those "pinholes", cracks or any other microscopic imperfections, sealing them (of course, not forever, the oil can be displaced with other materials, react chemically with the material being cut or simply evaporate). Also, the analogy with a hole isn't exactly correct, you need to understand that at a microscopic level that layer of DLC is actually surprisingly thick in regard to its molecular constituents, and no imperfection goes straight down towards the metal, but instead its more like a 3D labyrinth of small cracks and cavities, explaining why oil is so effective at transforming a flawed coating into something that can withstand substantially more corrosive exposure than just an oiled satin blade, without the annoying friction from paint or other rubbery coatings.
True, but going from the simple example I gave to illustrate the mechanism to the real, complex geometry of an imperfect surface does not prevent corrosion, it only slows down initiation of the corrosion. The bare surface still has exposure, and corrosion may occur much more quickly than the oil-in-the-matrix inhibitor theory would predict, as evidenced by Meatman's subsequent test. The chemistry of corrosion in the pores protected from the outside conditions becomes autocatalytic, and corrosion accelerates over time.
This is the mechanism of pitting and crevice corrosion.

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Re: DLC and rust.

Postby Evil D » Thu Nov 28, 2019 6:24 am

ladybug93 wrote:
Wed Nov 27, 2019 8:04 pm
this is why we need a blacked-out dlc manix 2 salt. ;)

Image
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Re: DLC and rust.

Postby The Meat man » Thu Nov 28, 2019 8:46 am

^ Ha ha! :D

Okay one more test. This time I oiled the other side of the blade, that hasn't been tested before. After sitting overnight with salt and water:

Image

Not quite as bad. And again, it cleaned up like a charm.
- Connor

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Re: DLC and rust.

Postby AccountDeletedUserRequest » Thu Nov 28, 2019 9:39 am

So who here that thinks DLC doesn't aid corrosion resistance also owns some satin finished 4V? ;) :D

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Re: DLC and rust.

Postby Bill1170 » Thu Nov 28, 2019 10:25 am

Evil D wrote:
Thu Nov 28, 2019 6:24 am
ladybug93 wrote:
Wed Nov 27, 2019 8:04 pm
this is why we need a blacked-out dlc manix 2 salt. ;)

Image
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Re: DLC and rust.

Postby ladybug93 » Thu Nov 28, 2019 10:55 am

Evil D wrote:
Thu Nov 28, 2019 6:24 am
ladybug93 wrote:
Wed Nov 27, 2019 8:04 pm
this is why we need a blacked-out dlc manix 2 salt. ;)

Image
yeah... it was tongue in cheek. i don’t think dlc really does a lot to prevent rust. as i stated earlier in this thread, i’ve seen aus8 rust through dlc, so it’s effectiveness is questionable. i just happen to want a black manix salt because that would match my favorite knife with my favorite steel and you wouldn’t have to worry about lc200n rusting under dlc like you do with these tool steels.


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