Micarta Shaman 2nd Sprint Run

[cycleguy]

In summary people don't want what they need, they want the object that reflects their perceived needs. People thought the base shaman was average (s30v is probably fine in most applications) - but the cru-carta is basically the Wrangler unlimited - people like the idea that their jeep has locking diffs and all the off roading goodies - the base model doesn't give Same with the Cru wear and micarta combo

I suspect many people want to feel better off than others as this makes them happy. Might explain why a base Shaman is a slow seller and a Cruwear Micarta Shaman is a strong seller.

CG

[JuPaul]

In summary people don't want what they need, they want the object that reflects their perceived needs. People thought the base shaman was average (s30v is probably fine in most applications) - but the cru-carta is basically the Wrangler unlimited - people like the idea that their jeep has locking diffs and all the off roading goodies - the base model doesn't give Same with the Cru wear and micarta combo

I suspect many people want to feel better off than others as this makes them happy. Might explain why a base Shaman is a slow seller and a Cruwear Micarta Shaman is a strong seller.

CG

That's maybe a little cynical...for me the shaman is an outdoor folder, not a daily edc, so a tough steel makes more sense to me. Plus I don't like black scales, and I love micarta. So why would I spend $180 on the base model when I can wait and spend $28 more and get the model that actually fits my intended use. And maybe some folks bought this model just for the micarta scales, but that makes sense, too. Base model + aftermarket micarta scales = $260-$280 knife. This one was $208. I'm sure fomo played some role in the sales of this knife, but I'm inclined to think it was just the perfect combo of steel and scales for this platform.

[Tucson Tom]

I passed on the original S30V version. Not because I thought there would be anything lacking in it, but because I knew I would appreciate a sprint or exclusive more and that once they came along the S30V would not get as much pocket time. It was very hard to resist and hold out -- but I did and am proud of myself. I had the backlock Manix to soothe my chaffed soul while I waited. And now I have no regrets. The S90V/CF sees the most pocket time so far by a long shot -- I am kind of guarding and treasuring the Cruwear Shaman for the time being.

Part of it is my effort this year to put the brakes on my spending, which I have done and also feel good about. Not that I am encouraging anyone else to go this route. I encourage anyone who asks me to buy every single thing that tickles them in the least way.

I feel a wee bit guilty about not buying an S30V Shaman, but if that starts to get to me, I suppose I know what to do.

[NickShabazz]

I know lots of folks like the hassle and chase of sprints, but why not just make the Micarta and [high end steel] Shaman a regular production knife, like the S110V/Blurple ones. Demand is clearly through the roof, and it seems silly to keep a great material and great tool away from people who might find it awesome.

[JuPaul]

By the way, since the Shaman has already been produced with two of the steels tested in this video by Michael Christy, it might be useful and thought provoking to revisit his take on the differences in toughness observed in a short test conducted on blades with 4V, M4 and S90V:

https://youtu.be/GgDOgLjSfD8

Interesting video. And the Shaman has been produced in all three of those steels: 4V on the St. Nick's, m4 on the BHQ exclusive, and s90v on the cf sprint. My one question about the video is that the steels he's testing are all run at different Rc, and it's my understanding that that can have a pretty big impact on toughness. So the video makes it seem like the 4v knife suffered almost as much edge damage as the s90v knife. But he says the 4v was run at 64 Rc, while the s90v was run at 61 Rc, so I'm not sure it's a fair comparison. Anyways, I'm certainly no expert - just a question I had while watching.

Here's a chart on Rc vs toughness that I often refer back to from one of Larrin's Knife Steel Nerds articles:

Edit: on the chart, the CruWear tested was ingot cruwear. If I remember correctly, the z-wear tested would be equivalent to the cpm cruwear on the shaman sprint. Like pd-1, z-wear is a cpm cruwear analogue.

[koenigsegg]

By the way, since the Shaman has already been produced with two of the steels tested in this video by Michael Christy, it might be useful and thought provoking to revisit his take on the differences in toughness observed in a short test conducted on blades with 4V, M4 and S90V:

https://youtu.be/GgDOgLjSfD8

Interesting video. And the Shaman has been produced in all three of those steels: 4V on the St. Nick's, m4 on the BHQ exclusive, and s90v on the cf sprint. My one question about the video is that the steels he's testing are all run at different Rc, and it's my understanding that that can have a pretty big impact on toughness. So the video makes it seem like the 4v knife suffered almost as much edge damage as the s90v knife. But he says the 4v was run at 64 Rc, while the s90v was run at 61 Rc, so I'm not sure it's a fair comparison. Anyways, I'm certainly no expert - just a question I had while watching.

Here's a chart on Rc vs toughness that I often refer back to from one of Larrin's Knife Steel Nerds articles:

Edit: on the chart, the CruWear tested was ingot cruwear. If I remember correctly, the z-wear tested would be equivalent to the cpm cruwear on the shaman sprint. Like pd-1, z-wear is a cpm cruwear analogue.

Both steels are probably at their toughest hrc. You max out the toughness of each steel on their own with the heat treat then compare best case against each. While it's true that s90v would be more brittle if it was at 64hrc, that's not a hardness that Spyderco felt comfortable producing it in nor does the manufacturer recommend this. S90v datasheet from aks says 59 hrc is recommended. Datasheet for 4v says 62hrc recommended.

[Fynnister]

I know lots of folks like the hassle and chase of sprints, but why not just make the Micarta and [high end steel] Shaman a regular production knife, like the S110V/Blurple ones. Demand is clearly through the roof, and it seems silly to keep a great material and great tool away from people who might find it awesome.

After being smacked on here for posing a similar question about the sprint run concept, I would like to thank you for coming forward with your thoughts on this idea.

Coming from you, a respected member with real clout on here, hopefully it will not fall on deaf ears.

[ugaarguy]

I know lots of folks like the hassle and chase of sprints, but why not just make the Micarta and [high end steel] Shaman a regular production knife, like the S110V/Blurple ones. Demand is clearly through the roof, and it seems silly to keep a great material and great tool away from people who might find it awesome.

There was the peel ply CF with full steel liners and S90V / 154CM laminate blade Native 5 Sprint. There's the sunburst pattern, liner-less, CF handle with straight S90V blade Native 5 that's standard production. Perhaps something similar could be done with a Micarta handle Shaman.

[TkoK83Spy]

^^^^^Give that man a cigar!

Totally agree!! So many Jeep's lifted, huge tires, snorkels, etc...yet are only highway driven. I suspect this knife falls in the same category for most.

[blues]

^^^^^Give that man a cigar!

Totally agree!! So many Jeep's lifted, huge tires, snorkels, etc...yet are only highway driven. I suspect this knife falls in the same category for most.

Not to mention that many folks, (myself included), got along for decades in the wilds, climbing, backpacking, paddling, x-c skiing with lightweight folders and fixed blades just fine. Sometimes a bit of technique, know-how and care go a long way. Not everything is manhandling your way through a task.

That said, who doesn't like a lifted off-road vehicle?

[cbrstar]

People don't understand how markets work. (They are like a pyramid.) and a products life cycle. (Introduction, growth, maturity, and decline.)

No matter how awesome a knife is, eventually you reach 100% of your target market. Meaning most people who can have bought it, and you see a huge drop in sales.

Companies usually have two options.

1) Make it cheaper. Spyderco does this with it's lightweight versions. Other good recent example is Al-Mar now being made in China.
This puts the product on a lower and bigger rung of the pyramid and brings in more customers.

2) Discontinue it and replace it with something new. Which seems to be the option that Cold Steel usually takes.

But there is a rare and much harder 3rd option...Go up a tier on the pyramid, and make it more expensive and exclusive!!!!

Spyderco sprints are a perfect example of a company going up a tier and reselling a product to already existing customers and creating new demand. Which IMHO is extremely hard to do and who ever does the marketing deserves a raise. One of the other few companies to do this is Rolex. Instead of getting cheaper they get more expensive every year and the wait list gets longer.

[TkoK83Spy]

^^^^^Give that man a cigar!

Totally agree!! So many Jeep's lifted, huge tires, snorkels, etc...yet are only highway driven. I suspect this knife falls in the same category for most.

Not to mention that many folks, (myself included), got along for decades in the wilds, climbing, backpacking, paddling, x-c skiing with lightweight folders and fixed blades just fine. Sometimes a bit of technique, know-how and care go a long way. Not everything is manhandling your way through a task.

That said, who doesn't like a lifted off-road vehicle?

I love the way they look, but have a few friends that have them and risk comfort, gas mileage, etc...just for the cool factor. I find it funny. They don't utilize what they have and paid for, just want to look cool and play like they do.

[blues]

^^^^^Give that man a cigar!

Totally agree!! So many Jeep's lifted, huge tires, snorkels, etc...yet are only highway driven. I suspect this knife falls in the same category for most.

Not to mention that many folks, (myself included), got along for decades in the wilds, climbing, backpacking, paddling, x-c skiing with lightweight folders and fixed blades just fine. Sometimes a bit of technique, know-how and care go a long way. Not everything is manhandling your way through a task.

That said, who doesn't like a lifted off-road vehicle?

I love the way they look, but have a few friends that have them and risk comfort, gas mileage, etc...just for the cool factor. I find it funny. They don't utilize what they have and paid for, just want to look cool and play like they do.

Rest easy, friend. I live in the mountains of western NC and my 4Runner, (Trail Edition Premium), is stock. (Our roads are steep, gravel, clay and often muddy, or snowy in winter.)

[cbrstar]

I know lots of folks like the hassle and chase of sprints, but why not just make the Micarta and [high end steel] Shaman a regular production knife, like the S110V/Blurple ones. Demand is clearly through the roof, and it seems silly to keep a great material and great tool away from people who might find it awesome.

There is a lot of psychology behind how exclusivity creates even more demand. IMHO The worse thing Spyderco could do is make it a regular production knife as it would greatly lower the demand. When is the last time you saw people get this excited for a blurple anything?

[Tucson Tom]

Not to mention that many folks, (myself included), got along for decades in the wilds, climbing, backpacking, paddling, x-c skiing with lightweight folders and fixed blades just fine. Sometimes a bit of technique, know-how and care go a long way. Not everything is manhandling your way through a task.

That said, who doesn't like a lifted off-road vehicle?

I did those things for many years and never carried a knife of any kind -- and did just fine frankly.
I had my stock Tacoma in 4WD just yesterday and made it over a nasty patch where I risked hearing a scrape. It is all about knowing limitations. Being lifted would have added a factor of safety or allowed something even nastier -- but I am not into things that nasty.

So no, I am not into lifted vehicles. As was said, most of those are just for show. It is usually obvious those that aren't (scratches, dents, missing paint along with the lift are indicators). But back to the topic of knives -- I am more than happy to have more than I need. That is why I bought the Province Bowie.

[Tucson Tom]

I know lots of folks like the hassle and chase of sprints, but why not just make the Micarta and [high end steel] Shaman a regular production knife, like the S110V/Blurple ones. Demand is clearly through the roof, and it seems silly to keep a great material and great tool away from people who might find it awesome.

I think this is right on. Spyderco ought to think about this quickly so they don't eliminate the option with their promise not to offer something in the "exact form" as a sprint. Make a blue denim cruwear a regular production knife or a PD1 version with the brown denim. That would make me truly happy, seeing PD1 used in a production knife.

Of course you might ask why I a am pleading for a production version when I have the sprint. (I'm asking that). I am just agreeing that this would seem to make sense for Spyderco to do -- unless some weird psychology kicks in of "well, it's a production knife, so I can pick one up anytime" and leads to procrastination and a drop in sales.

[Sharp Guy]

I know lots of folks like the hassle and chase of sprints, but why not just make the Micarta and [high end steel] Shaman a regular production knife, like the S110V/Blurple ones. Demand is clearly through the roof, and it seems silly to keep a great material and great tool away from people who might find it awesome.

After being smacked on here for posing a similar question about the sprint run concept, I would like to thank you for coming forward with your thoughts on this idea.

Coming from you, a respected member with real clout on here, hopefully it will not fall on deaf ears.

This is not the first time this has been suggested.

A while back Sal had said that they had issues working with Micarta in the past. Then he decided to go ahead and do this sprint run. So it might be that they're using this as a test run to see how it goes. Don't think they don't evaluate how these sprints do and consider whether or not it would do well as a regular production item. Any company in a similar situation would be foolish not to.

And Nick's just regular guy like the rest of us.

[Mzen]

Since others have chimed in already with their stories, I will provide my own anecdotal evidence as to why the standard Shaman didn't sell more than it did. My personal example is the Spyderco price hike from last year.

When the S30V version came out at 140$, it was an amazing deal and I was fully committed on getting one. Unfortunately, 140$ isn't a trivial amount of money that I can just splurge on a folder, so I was unable to get one at that (to me) ideal price before the increase. Now the cheapest I can get it is 190$ (without shipping, and keep in mind I'm in Europe).

For that amount of money, I just don't find it to be a good proposition anymore, so if I am going to spend that much on a Shaman, I would much rather wait and try to get a Sprint in a steel that I personally see as more useful for my purposes.

Either way, much respect to you Sal for trying to solve this situation in such short notice, between the micarta production and juggling different steel manufacturers to obtain materials, this must have been a nightmare and a half to try and get sorted out. Keep up the good work

[Sumdumguy]

I know lots of folks like the hassle and chase of sprints, but why not just make the Micarta and [high end steel] Shaman a regular production knife, like the S110V/Blurple ones. Demand is clearly through the roof, and it seems silly to keep a great material and great tool away from people who might find it awesome.

What's silly is that you dont understand the economics of this. There may be huge demand for this particular item right now. But it will not last forever. The market for this specification is limited.

Don't get me wrong I like this knife, but it shouldn't be a production piece. If anything, just keep the micarta handle and change up the color and steel like they would normally.

[Larry_Mott]

I know lots of folks like the hassle and chase of sprints, but why not just make the Micarta and [high end steel] Shaman a regular production knife, like the S110V/Blurple ones. Demand is clearly through the roof, and it seems silly to keep a great material and great tool away from people who might find it awesome.

What's silly is that you dont understand the economics of this. There may be huge demand for this particular item right now. But it will not last forever. The market for this specification is limited.

Don't get me wrong I like this knife, but it shouldn't be a production piece. If anything, just keep the micarta handle and change up the color and steel like they would normally.

Exactly. The demand is through the roof - but for how many pcs.? The loud irate people on internet forums doesn't add up to much in the grand scheme of things. I am quite convinced making the Crucarta regular production would have resulted in shelf warmers evenutally going at discount.