Your "return ethics"?

[cycleguy]

Cycleguy,may I ask: Do you feel that from what I described how I currently handle returns, am "one who abuses return policies" (honest question, and I can take any honest reply, no problem!) ?

Wartstein,

No, not at all. Admired that you are highly conscientious and respectful with it.

CG

[James Y]

I just returned 2 extra knives to Knifeworks. They had accidentally doubled up my order, but they hadn’t charged me for the extra knives. The knives in question were a G10 Manix 2 DLC, and a Salt 2 Wharncliffe. The only time I handled the two extra knives were to examine them and compare them to the ones I ultimately kept. I didn’t cut anything, or do anything else with them, only handled them for less than a minute each. I replaced them into their boxes, repacked them in the box they came in, along with the foam stuffing stuff, and contacted Knifeworks. They emailed me a return label a few days later, then I sent them back. Simple as that.

This was the only time I’ve ever returned a knife to a dealer. I haven’t experienced any flaws, because when ordering, I always do so over the phone, and request that before shipping, they examine the knife(s) to ensure it’s free of certain pre-listed flaws. So I’ve never gotten a knife that had any of those pre-listed flaws.

Jim

[cycleguy]

deleted .. duplicate post. Seem to be having some operator error troubles this morning. :o

CG

[dan31]

I have not returned a spyderco. Lately I have been ordering direct from spyderco. The Endela SE and Endura ZDP-189 are 2 of the best knives yet. Nice grind and tight out of the box.

[JonLeBlanc]

I just returned 2 extra knives to Knifeworks. They had accidentally doubled up my order, but they hadn’t charged me for the extra knives. The knives in question were a G10 Manix 2 DLC, and a Salt 2 Wharncliffe. The only time I handled the two extra knives were to examine them and compare them to the ones I ultimately kept. I didn’t cut anything, or do anything else with them, only handled them for less than a minute each. I replaced them into their boxes, repacked them in the box they came in, along with the foam stuffing stuff, and contacted Knifeworks. They emailed me a return label a few days later, then I sent them back. Simple as that.

This was the only time I’ve ever returned a knife to a dealer. I haven’t experienced any flaws, because when ordering, I always do so over the phone, and request that before shipping, they examine the knife(s) to ensure it’s free of certain pre-listed flaws. So I’ve never gotten a knife that had any of those pre-listed flaws.

Jim

That was quite decent of you!

[Wartstein]

I have not returned a spyderco. Lately I have been ordering direct from spyderco. The Endela SE and Endura ZDP-189 are 2 of the best knives yet. Nice grind and tight out of the box.

Don't want to derail the thread (which I started... :p ), but I just have to say: Those two in fact ARE among the best folders ever imho! You did choose very well, though I found the ZDP Endura a bit hard to sharpen, so I finally went with the HAP 40 model. Other than that: Perfect knife. As is the Endela in SE. :)

[Doeswhateveraspidercan]

Since I do not buy from manufacturers or distributors wholesale or direct if a return needs to be made it goes to the retailer I purchased from Always. My agreement of sale was with the retailers not the manufacturer, they are way down the supply chain before it gets to me and there are at-least 1 party away away and often more from the discounted price paid to the manufacturer.

All retailers assume risk of returns, it is not a one way middle man money grab just for selling a product.There are assumed risks in retail.

I have returned only one knife, it was an Elmax steel survival knife and it rusted so fast I thought it was carbon steel. Having Elmax in different knives I knew something was wrong with this one. Heat treat or something was really off.

I have purchased knives I just did not like. Those I sold on eBay.

To me returning a knife just because you do not like something is not acceptable, there must be a flaw otherwise I just suck it up take my losses and hope to recover most of my principal selling on eBay.

[Brackish]

In my personal opinion, ethics don’t enter into the equation. Purchasing an item from a seller is entering into a contract with that seller. If they include the option to return an item that is unwanted in the contract and I return that item because it’s unwanted, I’m still honoring that contract. So, I see zero issues with it.

The only time I see ethics being a factor would be a situation where someone carries a knife for a period of time, decides they don’t like it, and then try and return it as new. But again, that’s all subject to the specific terms agreed upon by the seller and the buyer at the time of purchase.

[The Meat man]

To me returning a knife just because you do not like something is not acceptable, there must be a flaw otherwise I just suck it up take my losses and hope to recover most of my principal selling on eBay.

If you bought something from Wal-Mart, and afterwards discovered that it didn't meet your needs or wants as you expected, would you not return it? (Of course assuming that you do not use or tinker with it, and that functionally there is nothing wrong with the product, just that it didn't meet your needs as you hoped it would've and wish to try something different.)

Honest question; I'm just curious if your principle applies only to knives or do you consider it universal across all transactions?

[The Meat man]

In my personal opinion, ethics don’t enter into the equation. Purchasing an item from a seller is entering into a contract with that seller. If they include the option to return an item that is unwanted in the contract and I return that item because it’s unwanted, I’m still honoring that contract. So, I see zero issues with it.

The only time I see ethics being a factor would be a situation where someone carries a knife for a period of time, decides they don’t like it, and then try and return it as new. But again, that’s all subject to the specific terms agreed upon by the seller and the buyer at the time of purchase.

Bingo! My opinion as well. If the seller offers the option, it's not wrong or disgraceful to invoke it.

[steelcity16]

I have purchased well over 100 Spyderco knives and never have returned a single one aside from an obvious fake. Most of my purchases were ultimately catch and release as I just wanted to check the knife out in person to see if I like it. I would just list it on bladeforums or ebay rather than return it. I'm also not super picky about my keepers/users. If I keep it, I am using it and using it hard, so I'm not concerned with looks enough to return a blade due to a blade being a little off center or a little unevenly ground or a smudge on the blade or scale or whatever.

[dan31]

I have not returned a spyderco. Lately I have been ordering direct from spyderco. The Endela SE and Endura ZDP-189 are 2 of the best knives yet. Nice grind and tight out of the box.

Don't want to derail the thread (which I started... :p ), but I just have to say: Those two in fact ARE among the best folders ever imho! You did choose very well, though I found the ZDP Endura a bit hard to sharpen, so I finally went with the HAP 40 model. Other than that: Perfect knife. As is the Endela in SE. :)

I bought the Endela SE based on your experience. I used a SE Mariner everyday for 4 years in the service. It’s the FFG SE that is so appealing. That and the Endela is a really nice knife.

ZDP-189 is great steel. Waiting for Endela in ZDP.

[Wartstein]

I have not returned a spyderco. Lately I have been ordering direct from spyderco. The Endela SE and Endura ZDP-189 are 2 of the best knives yet. Nice grind and tight out of the box.

Don't want to derail the thread (which I started... :p ), but I just have to say: Those two in fact ARE among the best folders ever imho! You did choose very well, though I found the ZDP Endura a bit hard to sharpen, so I finally went with the HAP 40 model. Other than that: Perfect knife. As is the Endela in SE. :)

I bought the Endela SE based on your experience. I use to use SE Mariner everyday for 4 years in the service. It’s the FFG SE that is so appealing. That and the Endela is a really nice knife.

ZDP-189 is great steel. Waiting for Endela in ZDP.

Based on my experience? : I am really glad you like it! :)
Yep, those rather shallow serrations in ffg are just amazing. Almost can't imagine that anyone who generally just likes a great cutting tool could feel differently, even if one does not like the Endela as a model particullary (I do, but would even more so an EndURa SE in ffg..)

Enjoy your knives! :)

[jpm2]

I just returned 2 extra knives to Knifeworks. They had accidentally doubled up my order, but they hadn’t charged me for the extra knives. The knives in question were a G10 Manix 2 DLC, and a Salt 2 Wharncliffe. The only time I handled the two extra knives were to examine them and compare them to the ones I ultimately kept. I didn’t cut anything, or do anything else with them, only handled them for less than a minute each. I replaced them into their boxes, repacked them in the box they came in, along with the foam stuffing stuff, and contacted Knifeworks. They emailed me a return label a few days later, then I sent them back. Simple as that.

This was the only time I’ve ever returned a knife to a dealer. I haven’t experienced any flaws, because when ordering, I always do so over the phone, and request that before shipping, they examine the knife(s) to ensure it’s free of certain pre-listed flaws. So I’ve never gotten a knife that had any of those pre-listed flaws.

Jim

Most honorable of you. [where's the thumbs up here]
What are your pre-listed flaws, and would you return if 1 or more was present?

[araneae]

I return if there's a legit issue on an unused knife. I'm currently sitting on a small pile I need to sell that I received and just didn't love for some reason. I don't return for buyers remorse. I generally know in seconds if the knife is going to be a keeper. Unfortunately I have almost no physical local Spyderco dealers and the one I have only carries about 5 models.

I've seen way too many posts here of people that buy a knife, aren't happy, tinker with said knife trying to "fix" it and then return it. Not cool. If it's not up to par upon opening, send it back. Buy from a dealer that has a clear and fair return policy and you have no worries.

May I ask: If you know "in seconds if a knife is going to be a keeper " (or not),so if you JUST hold it in hands for very short and do less than quality control does : Why do you 100 % NOT allow yourself to return it to the dealer, even if the dealer officially has the respective return policy and you pay for that service?

For a long time I did exactly like this/like you do, and it felt more like a "question of honor". But then I thought: Just to have the possibility of returning a Spyderco in the back of my mind atually makes me buy and support Spyderco MORE, and I´d never return a knife that would have been "used" by any means (again, not even touching the blade other than the opening hole) anyway...

Part of it is that I just don't feel the retailer is responsible for me not liking a knife I bought. Plus I am going to have to pack it up and ship it out, so I just hold on to them and sell eventually on BF or ebay. I know I could, in some cases send it back without the retailer hassling me, but now someone else is going to get an opened and returned knife that they may suspect was returned for a perceived flaw.

[Tucson Tom]

It sounds like you are asking if people on the forum feel it is ethical to order a model just so you can handle it and see if you like it.

I certainly would not do this. And most models I am interested are not available in any stores where I could go check them out either. The stores in my area only have a few mainstream Spyderco models and doggone few at that. And even then, you have to ask if it is ethical to go into a store to handle a knife and then go order it online. Which is another question altogether. I only handled a Shaman when I got the first one I ordered earlier this year.

But I only return things, online or otherwise if it is defective in some way.

[James Y]

That was quite decent of you!
[/quote]

Thanks! It wouldn’t have been right for me to keep them, and I’d rather they end up with owners who pay for and appreciate them. They would’ve just sat unused anyway.

Jim

[James Y]

Most honorable of you. [where's the thumbs up here]
What are your pre-listed flaws, and would you return if 1 or more was present?
[/quote]

Greetings! My pre-listed flaws (or things I ask them to check for) are:

Stripped Torx screw heads.
Vertical or horizontal blade play.
Edge contacting inside of handle.
Check to ensure smooth action opening and closing.
Check to ensure edge is sharp and evenly ground.
Check to ensure blade is centered in the closed position.
Check to ensure good retention (detent) in the closed position.

It looks like a lot, but in actuality, over the phone, it’s pretty quick, and I’ve never had anybody give me the impression it was a hassle for them to check. I have the list pre-written, so I don’t waste time trying to think and saying “Um” and “Uh”, etc. :). IMO, ordering over the phone beats just ordering by pressing a keyboard and blindly hoping everything will be okay. If someone ever considered it a hassle to check, I’d order elsewhere, as that can add up to a lot of money. But I’ve only ordered from about 4 different dealers, and it’s never been a bother to them.

Now, some people might think, “Why be so meticulous if you’re just gonna use it?” Because I want the best example I can get for my $$. If the tolerances eventually loosen or lessen over time, I want it to be through my own use and not already built into it.

Jim

[Wartstein]

Part of it is that I just don't feel the retailer is responsible for me not liking a knife I bought. Plus I am going to have to pack it up and ship it out, so I just hold on to them and sell eventually on BF or ebay. I know I could, in some cases send it back without the retailer hassling me, but now someone else is going to get an opened and returned knife that they may suspect was returned for a perceived flaw.

On the one hand that is a very honorable attitude, and I mean it (I was that 100% strict when it came to ordering knives myself for the longest time).

But on the other hand, logically and legally speaking: Why?
I mean, with all retailers I order from, it is just part of the fairly and squarely deal we make: I pay for the knife, the shipping, but also the totally official opportunity of returning the (unused) knife. So I literally pay for the service "you can return it, if you don´t like it".
Retailers often times even have boxes,where they ask (for their statistics) for what reason knives / items get returned.like "found better price"; "don´t like it anymore;"too big/small" and so on.

Furthermore,that is just how online trade and online shops work, returning itemsis totally legal, correct and done all the time. Customers KNOW that they might get an item somebody else has touched already (and I personally don´t care at all if that is the case or not).

But again, let me emphasize: After thinking about it and checking: I did send back a knife I just did not like immidiately when I held in hand only ONE single time: A Manix, which was just too heavy, exchanged it for a Manix LW (which I sold later on the secondary markte eventually)

It sounds like you are asking if people on the forum feel it is ethical to order a model just so you can handle it and see if you like it.

I certainly would not do this. And most models I am interested are not available in any stores where I could go check them out either. The stores in my area only have a few mainstream Spyderco models and doggone few at that. And even then, you have to ask if it is ethical to go into a store to handle a knife and then go order it online. Which is another question altogether. I only handled a Shaman when I got the first one I ordered earlier this year.

But I only return things, online or otherwise if it is defective in some way.

Thanks for your reply!

And not exactly. I´d never order a model to "just handle and [then] see if I like it" (so PLANNING on sending it back with some certainty)

I am always almost 100 % sure I will keep the model, and use and try it even if it turns out to be not my favorite when I first hold it.
What I am talking about is: Do I allow myself to make use of the totally fair and square possibility of returning a knife (or any item) if I really immidiately know that I´d just never carry it, and I return it totally unused (just held and opened/closed it, like any quality control would do and like I would not mind whatsoever if somebody did this already with a knife I receive from an online-retailer).

[Wartstein]

Part of it is that I just don't feel the retailer is responsible for me not liking a knife I bought. .....

It sounds like you are asking if people on the forum feel it is ethical to order a model just so you can handle it and see if you like it.

I certainly would not do this. .....

This discussion turns out to have many facets for me:

First: Are there maybe slight "cultural differences"'? For where I live, literally everybody orders stuff online all the time, and if you don´t like an item, it gets returned, also all the time. No one,even the most "ethical person" would ever even think about if that is "correct", if the returned item is unused.
Being able to return items is seen as just what online-retailers offer as part of the deal as an equivalent to have a look at items in an brick and mortar store (which you can´t do "in" an online-store). In retunr everybody is totally ok with potentially getting an item some other customer has had in hands already
Maybe that is different in the US?! Don´t know...

Second: I wish I would have done this thread in the form of an (anonymous) poll.... from a socio-psychological point of view, it is quite certain, that people who actually DO send back knives after holding them in hand for a short time, will have a tendency to NOT reply in this thread (cause this is not a discussoin about G10 vs FRN, or backlock vs comp.lock, which can get heated sometimes, but never contain kind of a "moral assessment". It is not more "right" or more "ethical" to prefer a backlock or a comp.lock, while returning a knife night be "less" ethical and "less" ok than keeping it at all costs)