Pros, cons and limitations of locktypes, solely referring to CONSTRUCTION and DESIGN of a folder

[Wartstein]

In this thread I´d like to discuss, what certain lock types mean concerning the design and overall construction of a knife.

! So NOT which lock type may be safer, better, faster, whatever IN USE!

I may give some examples, that should make clear what I mean (and please correct me, if I am wrong with some assumptions)

BACKLOCK:
- Probably the best for making the thinnest folder possible
- Limits the possible height of a blade due to the lockbar in the back (for example Sal stated, that the tall Shaman blade would not fit into a similarly shaped backlock model, but sure in a comp.lock model)
- Allows to design relatively solid linerless models, due to the closed back and the steel lockbar
- makes it harder, but not impossible to design a knife with the edge all the way back to the handle

COMP.LOCK:
- Allows for a very tall blade (Shaman...)
- Very easy to design a knife with edge all the way back to the handle
- Trickier to design really linerless models (BUT: Possible, enter Para 3 LW!)

CBBL:
- Requires some kind of choil (so edge all the way to the handle technically almost impossible?)
- Requires a somewhat taller handle probably? ("handle height")
- A very thin knife would not be possible probably

LINER LOCK:
- Pretty much the same regarding the topic as a comp.lock I guess
- Other than: Requires some cutout on the bottom of the handle, so that could make it a bit trickyier concerning ergonomics

Don´t know, but hope that there is more to say about this topic and that some would like to share their thoughts. Of course also concerning locktypes I did NOT list here!

[rangefinder]

CBBL:
- Requires some kind of choil (so edge all the way to the handle technically almost impossible?)

Not necessarily. The D'Allara 3 uses the ceramic BBL and the P'Kal uses the caged BBL and neither has a choil.

[Tims]

Liner, frame and comp’ lock CONS : Detent ball. Theres a better solution to detents, I just know it.

[BornIn1500]

Liner, frame and comp’ lock CONS : Detent ball. Theres a better solution to detents, I just know it.

I think that will be the next big breakthrough in knife designs. Someone will figure out a new cheap solution and it will sweep through all companies. We'll see it... in due time.

[The Deacon]

Liner, frame and comp’ lock CONS : Detent ball. Theres a better solution to detents, I just know it.

Some people would say the "better solution", at least for liner and frame locks, would be replacing the "Walker style" lock with the old school backspring liner lock style as used on the Victorinox Sentinel. Of course you add weight and give up open back construction and "flickability" if you go that route.

[Tims]

Liner, frame and comp’ lock CONS : Detent ball. Theres a better solution to detents, I just know it.

Some people would say the "better solution", at least for liner and frame locks, would be replacing the "Walker style" lock with the old school backspring liner lock style as used on the Victorinox Sentinel. Of course you add weight and give up open back construction and "flickability" if you go that route.

I think we can have our cake and eat it too. Larger diameter balls and ceramic as standard. I’d happily give away some flickability for better, more robust retention.

[JD Spydo]

I don't even know if we can go that far back or not. But when I joined this great Spyderco.com Forum back in September of 2004 there was a thread going at the time which I think it was "Sal" himself that started it. It was entitled "Let's Talk About Locks">> or something similar to that. It's been quite a long time. I actually printed it off and I have a hard copy of it in my storage unit that I've kept over the years.

I truly wish there was a way to pull that old thread about locking systems up to see what might have changed over the years. Because that thread really enticed me like few others have over the years.

Personally I've always been intrigued with the Ball Bearing Lock like the one on the Dodo model. But I've never had any of Spyderco's locking systems ever fail me. The compression lock on the old GUNTING model was one of the most impressive I've ever remembered.

[Bill1170]

Just last night I was over at a friend’s house and the question came up if the CBBL could be used in a design whose edge goes all the way to the handle.

It appears that the hump at the front of the blade choil on the Manix 2 acts as the stop for a closed blade, so that particular design can’t just remove the blade choil and still work properly.

The whole discussion arose because of us both loving the Manix 2 and the CBBL, and also enjoying edges that go right to the handle.

[Wartstein]

Just last night I was over at a friend’s house and the question came up if the CBBL could be used in a design whose edge goes all the way to the handle.

It appears that the hump at the front of the blade choil on the Manix 2 acts as the stop for a closed blade, so that particular design can’t just remove the blade choil and still work properly.

The whole discussion arose because of us both loving the Manix 2 and the CBBL, and also enjoying edges that go right to the handle.

I also was of the opinopn that the CBBL almost mandatory would require a choil in the blade, cause the mechansim would take up a lot of space in the handle.

But Rangefinder corrected me in the second post of this thread (I may quote him :"... The D'Allara 3 uses the ceramic BBL and the P'Kal uses the caged BBL and neither has a choil"

I post a pic of the D´Allara below: It looks a lot like a Manix with an edge all the way back to the handle (and has rather similar dimensions), so what you´d wish for the Manix (and I´d prefer too): With some tweaks it should be possible!

[Enactive]

I don't even know if we can go that far back or not. But when I joined this great Spyderco.com Forum back in September of 2004 there was a thread going at the time which I think it was "Sal" himself that started it. It was entitled "Let's Talk About Locks">> or something similar to that. It's been quite a long time. I actually printed it off and I have a hard copy of it in my storage unit that I've kept over the years.

I truly wish there was a way to pull that old thread about locking systems up to see what might have changed over the years. Because that thread really enticed me like few others have over the years.

Personally I've always been intrigued with the Ball Bearing Lock like the one on the Dodo model. But I've never had any of Spyderco's locking systems ever fail me. The compression lock on the old GUNTING model was one of the most impressive I've ever remembered.

JD, you just need to use the search tool. I found it right away. viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1603&p=1603&hilit=Lock+types#p1603

Edited to add, you can specify the author and keywords in the advanced search tools.

[Wartstein]

......
I truly wish there was a way to pull that old thread about locking systems up to see what might have changed over the years. Because that thread really enticed me like few others have over the years.

.....

Guess I found it for you?

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1603&p=1603&hilit=Lock+types#p1603

[Wartstein]

JD, you just need to use the search tool. I found it right away. viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1603&p=1603&hilit=Lock+types#p1603

Edited to add, you can specify the author and keywords in the advanced search tools.

Seems you beat me on finding the thread...

[Bill1170]

And the Caribbean is proof that a compression lock folder can be made with edge to the handle.

[JD Spydo]

JD, you just need to use the search tool. I found it right away. viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1603&p=1603&hilit=Lock+types#p1603

Edited to add, you can specify the author and keywords in the advanced search tools.

Seems you beat me on finding the thread...

Great I'm glad you guys found that old 2004 thread on "Locking Systems". I thought it might have even been deleted by now. But do check that thread out because there is a lot of input on that thread that would even still be considered timely for today. It was a most interesting discussion. I think they should consider that old "Lock" thread to be a "sticky". There wasn't a bad post on that entire thread IMO.

[Wartstein]

And the Caribbean is proof that a compression lock folder can be made with edge to the handle.

Sure, but that this is actually rather easy to design was one of the PROS of the comp locks I listed in my op anyway...

[Bill1170]

Just last night I was over at a friend’s house and the question came up if the CBBL could be used in a design whose edge goes all the way to the handle.

It appears that the hump at the front of the blade choil on the Manix 2 acts as the stop for a closed blade, so that particular design can’t just remove the blade choil and still work properly.

The whole discussion arose because of us both loving the Manix 2 and the CBBL, and also enjoying edges that go right to the handle.

I also was of the opinopn that the CBBL almost mandatory would require a choil in the blade, cause the mechansim would take up a lot of space in the handle.

But Rangefinder corrected me in the second post of this thread (I may quote him :"... The D'Allara 3 uses the ceramic BBL and the P'Kal uses the caged BBL and neither has a choil"

I post a pic of the D´Allara below: It looks a lot like a Manix with an edge all the way back to the handle (and has rather similar dimensions), so what you´d wish for the Manix (and I´d prefer too): With some tweaks it should be possible!

The D’Allara is a good find, proof of possibility. There’s always a way! I agree that a CBBL Manix variant (XL!) with edge to the handle would be an insta-buy purchase. I so rarely use the choil and the Manix handle is so great, that this would be a big upgrade for me.

[JuPaul]

Just last night I was over at a friend’s house and the question came up if the CBBL could be used in a design whose edge goes all the way to the handle.

It appears that the hump at the front of the blade choil on the Manix 2 acts as the stop for a closed blade, so that particular design can’t just remove the blade choil and still work properly.

The whole discussion arose because of us both loving the Manix 2 and the CBBL, and also enjoying edges that go right to the handle.

I also was of the opinopn that the CBBL almost mandatory would require a choil in the blade, cause the mechansim would take up a lot of space in the handle.

But Rangefinder corrected me in the second post of this thread (I may quote him :"... The D'Allara 3 uses the ceramic BBL and the P'Kal uses the caged BBL and neither has a choil"

I post a pic of the D´Allara below: It looks a lot like a Manix with an edge all the way back to the handle (and has rather similar dimensions), so what you´d wish for the Manix (and I´d prefer too): With some tweaks it should be possible!

Without a standard finger choil on the P'kal and the D'allara you get that wierd looking gap at the base of the blade when the knife is closed. On the manix, that gap is covered by the choil contouring on the handle. So it's my opinion that from a purely aesthetic standpoint, the cbbl needs a finger choil (or maybe some other handle contouring to cover that up).

[Wartstein]

I also was of the opinopn that the CBBL almost mandatory would require a choil in the blade, cause the mechansim would take up a lot of space in the handle.

But Rangefinder corrected me in the second post of this thread (I may quote him :"... The D'Allara 3 uses the ceramic BBL and the P'Kal uses the caged BBL and neither has a choil"

I post a pic of the D´Allara below: It looks a lot like a Manix with an edge all the way back to the handle (and has rather similar dimensions), so what you´d wish for the Manix (and I´d prefer too): With some tweaks it should be possible!

Without a standard finger choil on the P'kal and the D'allara you get that wierd looking gap at the base of the blade when the knife is closed. On the manix, that gap is covered by the choil contouring on the handle. So it's my opinion that from a purely aesthetic standpoint, the cbbl needs a finger choil (or maybe some other handle contouring to cover that up).

You mean a "gap" like the Endura /Endela /Delica have when closed?

[JuPaul]

I also was of the opinopn that the CBBL almost mandatory would require a choil in the blade, cause the mechansim would take up a lot of space in the handle.

But Rangefinder corrected me in the second post of this thread (I may quote him :"... The D'Allara 3 uses the ceramic BBL and the P'Kal uses the caged BBL and neither has a choil"

I post a pic of the D´Allara below: It looks a lot like a Manix with an edge all the way back to the handle (and has rather similar dimensions), so what you´d wish for the Manix (and I´d prefer too): With some tweaks it should be possible!

Without a standard finger choil on the P'kal and the D'allara you get that wierd looking gap at the base of the blade when the knife is closed. On the manix, that gap is covered by the choil contouring on the handle. So it's my opinion that from a purely aesthetic standpoint, the cbbl needs a finger choil (or maybe some other handle contouring to cover that up).

You mean a "gap" like the Endura /Endela /Delica have when closed?

Yes, but on those models the gap is so small I hardly notice it. On the P'kal it's huge and above the level of the scales. The d'allara's gap is below the level of the scales, so doesn't stick out and create a protusion, but it's still a fairly noticeable gap. Again, just my opinion, but it isn't as appealing of a design to me aesthetically (and does bug me a tiny bit on my delicas, now that you mention it). And as I said, I haven't held either, so this is just based on looking at pics.

Edit: anyhow, regardless of whether someone cares about "the gap" or not, it does strike me as a design limitation for the cbbl - which is what we're discussing, right?

Now that I think more about it, this would be a potential design limitation for any lock that doesn't allow the blade to nest deeply inside the handle, right? Having a choil allows the blade to sit more deeply with some of those locks (comp lock, cbbl) and/or creates handle contouring to cover the base of the blade (back lock native, for example). I'm sure a finger choil isn't the only way to address the design issue, but it seems like an easy way.

[Wartstein]

The D’Allara is a good find, proof of possibility. There’s always a way! I agree that a CBBL Manix variant (XL!) with edge to the handle would be an insta-buy purchase. I so rarely use the choil and the Manix handle is so great, that this would be a big upgrade for me.

"Rangefinder" was the "D´Allara-finder", not me..

A Manix with edge all the way to the handle would be great!! The main reason why I sold my Manix LW was the rather small amount of edge you get for the package in your pocket (and generally to0 short edge for my likings).
A choil-less Manix would solve that by offering more cutting edge and as you say: The handle behind the choil is great concernings ergos!