AEB-L Urban Performance Reviews

[Larrin]

Don't confuse hardness with wear resistance, the harder the steel is to a point the less the apex will deform in comparison to the same steel at lower hardness. The less the apex deforms the longer it will cut (Stay sharp) in retrospect than the same steel at lower hardness.

That has more to do with compression strength than anything else, the harder the steel is the higher the compression strength is.

There is a direct relationship.

Wear resistance or resistance to wear is directly related to carbide volume and the type of carbides they are.

There is a huge difference.

They both matter in the end however as they work together, but they aren't the same thing.

Hardness also controls wear resistance. Softer materials wear more easily.

[Ankerson]

Don't confuse hardness with wear resistance, the harder the steel is to a point the less the apex will deform in comparison to the same steel at lower hardness. The less the apex deforms the longer it will cut (Stay sharp) in retrospect than the same steel at lower hardness.

That has more to do with compression strength than anything else, the harder the steel is the higher the compression strength is.

There is a direct relationship.

Wear resistance or resistance to wear is directly related to carbide volume and the type of carbides they are.

There is a huge difference.

They both matter in the end however as they work together, but they aren't the same thing.

Hardness also controls wear resistance. Softer materials wear more easily.

Yes, you are correct.

But they aren't the same thing, they do work together however as I said.

High compression strength slows it down, so does the hard carbides.

However if the steel is soft even with the hard carbides the apex will still deform faster than the same steel at higher hardness.

Everything works together to give the main objective in the end.

The longer we can keep the apex straight or from deforming and or wearing down the longer it will stay sharp. :)

[TomAiello]

It out cuts 1095 and 52100 in my experience.

AEBL is not the same as 420hc.

I hate to jump into the middle of a perfectly good internet argument here, but is your comparison with 52100 a specific testing, or a general conclusion from EDCing both steels?

My experience has been better with 52100 (KW Manix) than AEB-L (urban and leek--under 13c26 name). I wonder if that's the platform though? It seems like the geometry/platform edge ought to go to the thinner blades, but it's also possible that the Manix ergonomics just make it feel "easier" for me to keep cutting with a duller blade.

It's so hard to compare things without identical platforms.

[Deadboxhero]

Of all people Jim, I'm not confused with hardness and wear resistance.

I don't understand what that has to do with what I presented.

I shared that the AEB-L has MORE carbide volume than 1095. That Chromium makes a harder carbide and that AEBL can operate at 64-65rc.

I've made no claims about AEB-L being the world's greatest steel.

Never said that it smokes vg10, Elmax etc.

However, it is clearly more wear resistant than 1095 with all things being equal.

I've taken the time to share how that works as well.

That's a picture of AEB-L, the little white dots are the carbides

I agree that it's not a highly wear resistant steel.

But it is clearly more wear resistant than 1095.

I make knives with all three of these steels.

I'm no stranger to using them either

No, these Micrographs are new, I also just added the carbide volumes and types to them as well.

It's pretty straight forward.

Anything with harder carbides at simliar size with more volume and higher matrix hardness will cut longer.

The issue is that AEB-L doesn't have those carbides to begin with, that's the issue.

The actual carbide volume is so low when compared to the other steels the wear resistance is the result.

But then it's low on all of the simple basic steels, as I said they are all very close performance wise.

They designed the steel just to get hard and be stainless, not for edge retention.

Don't confuse hardness with wear resistance, the harder the steel is to a point the less the apex will deform in comparison to the same steel at lower hardness. The less the apex deforms the longer it will cut (Stay sharp) in retrospect than the same steel at lower hardness.

That has more to do with compression strength than anything else, the harder the steel is the higher the compression strength is.

There is a direct relationship.

Wear resistance or resistance to wear is directly related to carbide volume and the type of carbides they are.

There is a huge difference.

They both matter in the end however as they work together, but they aren't the same thing.

[Ankerson]

Of all people Jim, I'm not confused with hardness and wear resistance.

I don't understand what that has to do with what I presented.

I shared that the AEB-L has MORE carbide volume than 1095. That Chromium makes a harder carbide and that AEBL can operate at 64-65rc.

I've made no claims about AEB-L being the world's greatest steel.

Never said that it smokes vg10, Elmax etc.

However, it is clearly more wear resistant than 1095 with all things being equal.

I've taken the time to share how that works as well.

The problem is the steel was designed in the 1st place NOT to make any Chromium carbides so you aren't getting any.

Which is the point that keeps getting missed here.

If there are any at all due to some HT it won't be enough to make any difference one way or another because there isn't enough carbon in the steel.

That's part of the hype that's been pushed over the years, that AEB-L makes all of these carbides and it doesn't.... It's impossible because the alloys just aren't there in enough quantity for it to happen.

It was designed that way from the start and there is no way around it.

[Deadboxhero]

Those are carbides in the picture.

If you read my posts I explained how primary and secondary carbides work.

Of all people Jim, I'm not confused with hardness and wear resistance.

I don't understand what that has to do with what I presented.

I shared that the AEB-L has MORE carbide volume than 1095. That Chromium makes a harder carbide and that AEBL can operate at 64-65rc.

I've made no claims about AEB-L being the world's greatest steel.

Never said that it smokes vg10, Elmax etc.

However, it is clearly more wear resistant than 1095 with all things being equal.

I've taken the time to share how that works as well.

The problem is the steel was designed in the 1st place NOT to make any Chromium carbides so you aren't getting any.

Which is the point that keeps getting missed here.

If there are any at all due to some HT it won't be enough to make any difference one way or another because there isn't enough carbon in the steel.

That's part of the hype that's been pushed over the years, that AEB-L makes all of these carbides and it doesn't.... It's impossible because the alloys just aren't there in enough quantity for it to happen.

It was designed that way from the start and there is no way around it.

[ZrowsN1s]

.........

What's your cutting board made of?? You shouldn't ever see edge damage from just one cutting session on a wood or plastic board... slight dulling sure, but not a flat spot.
....

:D It's just a regular white plastic cutting board you can see the edge of it in the foreground of the pic.

This was not a 'flat spot' so much as a spot that reflected light. Before I started I could shine my 300 lumen flahlight at the edge and see no reflection. The cutting board session, which wasn't just pure slicing mind you, the edge was gently hitting the board, but it was still hitting the board with very light force (enough to make a sound). Afterwards, it was still razor sharp, but shining the light on the edge I could see the smallest spot that reflected light back. It wasn't dull or really even flat, but the edge had taken some wear. Easy fix with a few passes on the fine rods.

[Marulaghost]

I'm no expert at any of this stuff and won't claim to be.
****, I'm the guy considering V toku2 a super steel while the actual steel nerds scoff at me.
I'm a total novice.
But so far i have no regrets with my urban. I can make it sharp and I can keep it sharp. I don't need any super expensive gear to maintain that edge either.
I'm happy with it.
Those are my two cents.
Good job spyderco!

[The Meat man]

Seems pretty cut and dried to me. I don't know why this is so difficult to understand.

[ZrowsN1s]

Sorry guys didn't realize this would be such a contentious topic. Just wanted to share my experiences with the AEB-L Urban and hear what others experience with it was as well.

Jim, Shawn, Larrin, there aren't many people on this forum who's opinion I value more than yours on the subject of steel. I appreciate you all weighing in on the subject.

[bearfacedkiller]

Some info.

http://www.devinthomas.com/faq.html

Few know what AEB-L steel is, and those that do, only have heard that it is similar to 440B or 440A. The only similarities between AEB-L and 440B or 440A is the amount of carbon. The fact that AEB-L has only 12.8% chromium by weight compared to the 16-17% in 440A and 440B makes the steels quite different. AEB-L is more similar to a stainless 52100 than 440A. A copy of AEB-L called 13C26 is made by Sandvik.

AEB-L naturally forms what is called the K2 carbide, the harder of the two chromium carbides, compared to the K1 carbide, which is formed in steels such as 440C. The K2 carbide is about 79 on the Rockwell C scale, compared to 72 for the K1 carbide. Through proper heat treatment, AEB-L has fine, evenly distributed K2 carbides. AEB-L lies almost perfectly on what is called the "Carbon Saturation Line", which means that all of the carbides formed are precipitated carbides, not primary carbides like are formed in 440C, and there is more carbon and a similar amount chromium in solution as compared to 440C. Primary carbides are very large. So, through a balanced composition, AEB-L has excellent toughness, edge retention, workability, ease of sharpening, and ease of polishing.

[bearfacedkiller]

Look, folks liked the Super Blue so we asked for an American carbon steel and got the 52100 knives. Jim was very outspoken against that too. Now folks want AEB-L so Spyderco gave it to us. Jim is again outspoken about it. I understand wanting folks to have realistic expectations of what the steel is but sometimes we need to just agree to disagree in regards to what we think makes sense.

Sounds like everyone has made their case so lets just let the user feedback roll in.

[Ankerson]

Those are carbides in the picture.

If you read my posts I explained how primary and secondary carbides work.

Of all people Jim, I'm not confused with hardness and wear resistance.

I don't understand what that has to do with what I presented.

I shared that the AEB-L has MORE carbide volume than 1095. That Chromium makes a harder carbide and that AEBL can operate at 64-65rc.

I've made no claims about AEB-L being the world's greatest steel.

Never said that it smokes vg10, Elmax etc.

However, it is clearly more wear resistant than 1095 with all things being equal.

I've taken the time to share how that works as well.

The problem is the steel was designed in the 1st place NOT to make any Chromium carbides so you aren't getting any.

Which is the point that keeps getting missed here.

If there are any at all due to some HT it won't be enough to make any difference one way or another because there isn't enough carbon in the steel.

That's part of the hype that's been pushed over the years, that AEB-L makes all of these carbides and it doesn't.... It's impossible because the alloys just aren't there in enough quantity for it to happen.

It was designed that way from the start and there is no way around it.

They are NOT Chromium carbides however, this has always been the same discussion as some of us had way back.

The information doesn't change, the steel is still the same as it was when it was designed to do what it does.

Sure there will be some carbide in all steels, it just in AEB-L the way it was designed you aren't getting any Chromium carbides out of it.

Anyone that tells you different is pulling your chain.

That doesn't make it bad, it does what it was developed for and has for a long time and that's really all one can ask from it.

It sharpens easy, it's pretty stainless and takes a nice edge.

[Larrin]

They are NOT Chromium carbides however, this has always been the same discussion as some of us had way back.

The information doesn't change, the steel is still the same as it was when it was designed to do what it does.

Sure there will be some carbide in all steels, it just in AEB-L the way it was designed you aren't getting any Chromium carbides out of it.

Anyone that tells you different is pulling your chain.

That doesn't make it bad, it does what it was developed for and has for a long time and that's really all one can ask from it.

Please stop spreading misinformation on the forum.

[TomAiello]

I'm totally going to start carrying AEB-L now just to see how my experiences line up with this thread.

I wish there was a 52100 Urban so I could do some direct comparisons...

[ZrowsN1s]

I'm totally going to start carrying AEB-L now just to see how my experiences line up with this thread.

I wish there was a 52100 Urban so I could do some direct comparisons...

I'm trying to get a good idea of how this steel is at the Urbans geometry and 15dps, then I plan on going perhaps as accute as 10 degrees per side.

[The Meat man]

I'm totally going to start carrying AEB-L now just to see how my experiences line up with this thread.

I wish there was a 52100 Urban so I could do some direct comparisons...

I'm trying to get a good idea of how this steel is at the Urbans geometry and 15dps, then I plan on going perhaps as accute as 10 degrees per side.

Matt, do you know if anyone has Rockwell tested the AEB-L Urban?

[ZrowsN1s]

I'm totally going to start carrying AEB-L now just to see how my experiences line up with this thread.

I wish there was a 52100 Urban so I could do some direct comparisons...

I'm trying to get a good idea of how this steel is at the Urbans geometry and 15dps, then I plan on going perhaps as accute as 10 degrees per side.

Matt, do you know if anyone has Rockwell tested the AEB-L Urban?

I do not. I'll post in the database if I see any numbers.
Maybe Sal can answer that one.

[Doc Dan]

Good discussion.

Like I said when AEB-L/13c26 was being discussed for the Urban, it is no super steel, but it is a good steel for a pocket knife. I rolls rather than chips, will take A fine edge, But it will have to be sharpened more often than some steals it we are used to. Over all I would expect Dailey users to be happy.

[vivi]

Lots of subjective opinions here. There's nothing wrong with that at all; just keep in mind that they are subjective.

It all depends on what the user wants out of the steel. Killer edge retention? Obviously, AEB-L is not the best bet, but no one here is claiming that it can hold against REX 121 in that regard. That's comparing apples to oranges.

Not everyone wants or needs extreme wear resistance. Lots of people value other steel attributes above wear resistance. Just because AEB-L falls short in wear resistance compared to REX 121 does not mean it is a junk steel.

Exactly.

AEBL doesn't suck. But it isn't the best steel if you cut cardboard 8 hours a day for a living.

For someone like me that values raw sharpness, ease of obtaining raw sharpness, good corrosion resistance and the ability to be stable at low edge angles, it's a great choice. I'm a fan of BD1 for similar reasons.

I would buy a Police lightweight or Native Chief in AEBL. I like the steel. I also like K390. They both have their pros and cons, neither suck, neither is the best steel ever, they're two different arrows in my quiver of steels to choose from for the day.