M390 CTS-204P 20CV :) Hype Steel

Discuss Spyderco's products and history.
Banter 247
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Re: M390 CTS-204P 20CV :) Hype Steel

Postby Banter 247 » Thu Jun 13, 2019 6:39 am

shunsui wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 3:56 pm
Banter 247 wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 1:59 am
...
The working hardness from the data sheet is in the context of use in the plastics industry, for which these steels were developed. The condition sets, structural and edge geometry, etc for that use is vastly different than folding cutlery application, for which you’ll generally hear an ideal range of 62-64hrc from makers who experiment with it.
Which is how custom makers market their work. But that's the business. I think we all agree that we don't appreciate soft knives made by the lazy, the greedy, or the incompetent.
Indeeeeeed. BTW, I should have prefaced my reply by pointing out that I sometimes comment to clarify for third parties. I didn’t want anyone to see the data sheet listing for working hardness and walk away with the badly mistaken impression that the optimal range for these steels in cutlery is 57-59 🤙🏻

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shunsui
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Re: M390 CTS-204P 20CV :) Hype Steel

Postby shunsui » Thu Jun 13, 2019 6:29 pm

Banter 247 wrote:
Thu Jun 13, 2019 6:39 am

Indeeeeeed. BTW, I should have prefaced my reply by pointing out that I sometimes comment to clarify for third parties. I didn’t want anyone to see the data sheet listing for working hardness and walk away with the badly mistaken impression that the optimal range for these steels in cutlery is 57-59 🤙🏻
I'd imagine optimal would depend on what qualities you want and how many knives you make at once. If all you want to do is cut rope, there's better steels.

Flippers don't like it, but a full line of S110V knives is in current production at Spyderco.

In fact, Spyderco has both S110V and ZDP-189 lines in regular production.

I think even the Maxamet knives are supposed to be regular production. If you want a brittle, rusty, knife that cuts a LOT of rope....

https://www.bladehq.com/item--Spyderco- ... -10--24678

There's something for everyone in the market.

Doeswhateveraspidercan
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Re: M390 CTS-204P 20CV :) Hype Steel

Postby Doeswhateveraspidercan » Thu Jun 13, 2019 6:54 pm

Have no experience with Maxamet but it has all the characteristics I am not looking for at an inflated price.

Pass thank you.
:)

Banter 247
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Re: M390 CTS-204P 20CV :) Hype Steel

Postby Banter 247 » Thu Jun 13, 2019 7:06 pm

shunsui wrote:
Thu Jun 13, 2019 6:29 pm
Banter 247 wrote:
Thu Jun 13, 2019 6:39 am

Indeeeeeed. BTW, I should have prefaced my reply by pointing out that I sometimes comment to clarify for third parties. I didn’t want anyone to see the data sheet listing for working hardness and walk away with the badly mistaken impression that the optimal range for these steels in cutlery is 57-59 🤙🏻
I'd imagine optimal would depend on what qualities you want and how many knives you make at once. If all you want to do is cut rope, there's better steels.

Flippers don't like it, but a full line of S110V knives is in current production at Spyderco.

In fact, Spyderco has both S110V and ZDP-189 lines in regular production.

I think even the Maxamet knives are supposed to be regular production. If you want a brittle, rusty, knife that cuts a LOT of rope....

https://www.bladehq.com/item--Spyderco- ... -10--24678

There's something for everyone in the market.
Am I reading correctly that you’re saying a maker might run M390 at 58-59 hrc to target specific properties, in the context of a folding knife, and that this might be a desirable choice for a consumer?

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shunsui
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Re: M390 CTS-204P 20CV :) Hype Steel

Postby shunsui » Thu Jun 13, 2019 11:45 pm

Banter 247 wrote:
Thu Jun 13, 2019 7:06 pm

Am I reading correctly that you’re saying a maker might run M390 at 58-59 hrc to target specific properties, in the context of a folding knife, and that this might be a desirable choice for a consumer?

Am I reading correctly that the sky will fall or the user would die if M390 was made into a knife at 58-59 HRC ?

If cutting lots of rope is so important to you, buy the Maxamet knife.

That would be reading correctly. But by all means, go save the world with my blessings.

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ZrowsN1s
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Re: M390 CTS-204P 20CV :) Hype Steel

Postby ZrowsN1s » Fri Jun 14, 2019 1:11 am

Hey if you guys are ok with 58-59 hrc M390 the market abounds with some great choices for you :D

I'll take Maxamet over M390 at any HRC all day. To each their own.
Carrying 3 knives is perfectly normal :D
-Matt

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shunsui
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Re: M390 CTS-204P 20CV :) Hype Steel

Postby shunsui » Fri Jun 14, 2019 2:15 am

Oddly enough, Rockwell hardness was never really a consideration.
Image

Gonna buy one of those Manix 2's one of these days, unless Spyderco suddenly floods the market with Para2's.

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Re: M390 CTS-204P 20CV :) Hype Steel

Postby Spook410 » Fri Jun 14, 2019 2:24 am

I've had a M390 mule for awhile. It's a good knife.

I've had CTS-204P Para 2's for awhile as well as a Bradley flipper. Also good knives.

I've had a Maxamet mule since it came out. Followed by a Para 3 and Native. Absolutely amazing stuff. Of course, I use my knives to cut things. Not as a pry bar. And while none of mine have even discolored, if stainless is needed, there are plenty of stainless steels available. Of course, some of the best kitchen knives in the world are made of Aogami Super Blue which is far from stainless. And somehow folks get by. Don't care what people use, but I cannot imagine not liking Maxamet. Have never had anything hold an edge like this. It costs what it costs. And at current rates, I see it as a screaming bargain.

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Re: M390 CTS-204P 20CV :) Hype Steel

Postby Pelagic » Fri Jun 14, 2019 2:59 am

shunsui wrote:
Thu Jun 13, 2019 11:45 pm
Banter 247 wrote:
Thu Jun 13, 2019 7:06 pm

Am I reading correctly that you’re saying a maker might run M390 at 58-59 hrc to target specific properties, in the context of a folding knife, and that this might be a desirable choice for a consumer?

Am I reading correctly that the sky will fall or the user would die if M390 was made into a knife at 58-59 HRC ?

If cutting lots of rope is so important to you, buy the Maxamet knife.

That would be reading correctly. But by all means, go save the world with my blessings.
He's merely shedding more light on an important and recently more prominent (popularity-wise) issue. The existence of Maxamet and the fact that it's ran at high hardness shouldn't be a legit excuse for other premium steels being so soft.
Pancake wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 10:20 pm
Are you a magician? :eek:
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Thu Apr 04, 2019 4:32 pm
You're the lone wolf of truth howling into the winds of ignorance
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Sat Jun 15, 2019 9:17 pm
You are a nobody got it?

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shunsui
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Re: M390 CTS-204P 20CV :) Hype Steel

Postby shunsui » Fri Jun 14, 2019 4:11 am

Pelagic wrote:
Fri Jun 14, 2019 2:59 am
He's merely shedding more light on an important and recently more prominent (popularity-wise) issue. The existence of Maxamet and the fact that it's ran at high hardness shouldn't be a legit excuse for other premium steels being so soft.
Far be it for me to throw myself in front of the uber hard M390 jihad, but you CAN sharpen a knife. You can't make it more corrosion resistant or tougher once it's out of the box.

If you don't like a knife, don't feel like you HAVE to buy it.

HARD EARNED MONEY...yadayadayada.

I've been remarkably happy with my Cruwear Para2 lately. The Mastiff was right.

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Pelagic
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Re: M390 CTS-204P 20CV :) Hype Steel

Postby Pelagic » Fri Jun 14, 2019 6:42 am

shunsui wrote:
Fri Jun 14, 2019 4:11 am
Pelagic wrote:
Fri Jun 14, 2019 2:59 am
He's merely shedding more light on an important and recently more prominent (popularity-wise) issue. The existence of Maxamet and the fact that it's ran at high hardness shouldn't be a legit excuse for other premium steels being so soft.
Far be it for me to throw myself in front of the uber hard M390 jihad, but you CAN sharpen a knife. You can't make it more corrosion resistant or tougher once it's out of the box.

If you don't like a knife, don't feel like you HAVE to buy it.

HARD EARNED MONEY...yadayadayada.

I've been remarkably happy with my Cruwear Para2 lately. The Mastiff was right.
That cruwear Para 2 is probably 61hrc, lol.
Pancake wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 10:20 pm
Are you a magician? :eek:
Nate wrote:
Thu Apr 04, 2019 4:32 pm
You're the lone wolf of truth howling into the winds of ignorance
Doeswhateveraspidercan wrote:
Sat Jun 15, 2019 9:17 pm
You are a nobody got it?

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A.S.O.K.A
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Re: M390 CTS-204P 20CV :) Hype Steel

Postby A.S.O.K.A » Fri Jun 14, 2019 11:37 am

shunsui wrote:
Fri Jun 14, 2019 4:11 am
You can't make it more corrosion resistant once it's out of the box.
Most folks cant, but I can, with a black oxide coat :D
Every Steel Has Its Appeal :cool:

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Tucson Tom
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Re: M390 CTS-204P 20CV :) Hype Steel

Postby Tucson Tom » Fri Jun 14, 2019 12:16 pm

Something that ought to be mentioned, but hasn't is that these steels can have different grain structure when made by different processes by different manufacturers. Even for steels with the same chemistry or ratios of elements as these are. The recent article by Larrin on knife steel nerds entitled "New Micrographs of 42 Knife Steels" showed 20CV versus M390 (I didn't see CTS204P in the photo collection, but I certainly might have missed it).

I am hardly enough of an expert to evaluate this, and heat treat would modify the grain structure as well. It is worth thinking about. I am not sure which steel of this trio would come out the winner and what would make it so and which attributes we would want to relate to grain structure.

After pointing this out, I'll still say that I am a champ of 20CV -- just because I am. My bet is that it would take some pretty closely controlled testing to see differences among these steels and heat treat is likely to still be the dominant factor.

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Re: M390 CTS-204P 20CV :) Hype Steel

Postby bearfacedkiller » Fri Jun 14, 2019 12:21 pm

The hardness of Maxamet has nothing to do with what we are talking about and liking Cruwear at 61-63 has nothing to do with M390 at 59 performing like S30V when it isn't supposed to. I have been underwhelmed with the M390/CTS-204P/CPM-20CV steels so far and this information explains why. It isn’t a bad steel and it performs fine at 59 but I wasn’t seeing any improvement over S30V so I just didn’t understand the hype. Folks acted like it was the greatest stainless ever and i didn’t understand why. It just seemed to be another S30V,XHP,Elmax class steel when it was marketed as a step up.

I am a skeptic of "influencers" myself and in a way sort of detest that they have the pull they have. They are the ones who started the S30V is crap and ZT’s Elmax is bad stuff years ago and “influencers” weren’t even a big thing then. You obviously have to be cautious around folks who stand to benefit from making bold claims. I am on Instagram and I watch a lot of YouTube and I cannot even understand half of what they seem to care about. Anyway, these folks here are hrc testing steels in quality production knives that cost a premium. That is science and I can hate social media all I want, science is science and data is data. We all benefit from their efforts to provide this data.

We can get defensive about Spyderco’s M390 all we want but the truth is that these folks are actually proving that Spyderco has maybe the best heat treat of the production companies. With the exception of this family of steels being maybe 2-3 points lower than they would like most of the rest of Spyderco’s knives have tested out very well. It is other companies who are being exposed for having very sub par heat treats.

I am still indifferent though and do not even have very many knives in these steels. If I want a balanced stainless I will take XHP, S30V or S35V and if I want a extremely wear resistant stainless I will go with S90V or S110V.
-Darby
sal wrote:Knife afi's are pretty far out, steel junky's more so, but "edge junky's" are just nuts. :p
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Re: M390 CTS-204P 20CV :) Hype Steel

Postby ZrowsN1s » Fri Jun 14, 2019 12:28 pm

I should point out that in the in the heat treat 'scandal' that's riling some of the knife community up, Spyderco has some of the best numbers. What's really making some people lose their mind are companies that are putting out knives in the 48-57 range, which again is NOT Spyderco. Their softest knife tested came in just shy of 60 their hardest 62, their numbers are above average.


*edit, just saw your post Darby. Well said.

I would also add that over the last year or so I've picked up 3 or 4 spydercos in S30V. I honestly don't know why I ever complained about that steel. Perhaps because I wanted variety and something 'new'. But in using it, it's a great steel, and Spyderco does it very well. Something to be said for the good 'old' steels that are tried, tested, and perfected.
Carrying 3 knives is perfectly normal :D
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Banter 247
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Re: M390 CTS-204P 20CV :) Hype Steel

Postby Banter 247 » Fri Jun 14, 2019 1:28 pm

shunsui wrote:
Fri Jun 14, 2019 4:11 am
Pelagic wrote:
Fri Jun 14, 2019 2:59 am
He's merely shedding more light on an important and recently more prominent (popularity-wise) issue. The existence of Maxamet and the fact that it's ran at high hardness shouldn't be a legit excuse for other premium steels being so soft.
Far be it for me to throw myself in front of the uber hard M390 jihad, but you CAN sharpen a knife. You can't make it more corrosion resistant or tougher once it's out of the box.

If you don't like a knife, don't feel like you HAVE to buy it.

HARD EARNED MONEY...yadayadayada.

I've been remarkably happy with my Cruwear Para2 lately. The Mastiff was right.
I’m not OK buying a product presented one way, only to have it delivered another.

I respect your right to not care, and I say that sincerely and without derision. Similarly, I ask that you consider that other people may prefer to get what they pay for.

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Re: M390 CTS-204P 20CV :) Hype Steel

Postby Spook410 » Fri Jun 14, 2019 1:48 pm

Double.. delete..

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shunsui
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Re: M390 CTS-204P 20CV :) Hype Steel

Postby shunsui » Fri Jun 14, 2019 7:24 pm

Banter 247 wrote:
Fri Jun 14, 2019 1:28 pm

I’m not OK buying a product presented one way, only to have it delivered another.

I respect your right to not care, and I say that sincerely and without derision. Similarly, I ask that you consider that other people may prefer to get what they pay for.
Tell me about it, I've got a ZDP-189 Mule around here somewhere. Hey, it may be valuable some day to a collector.

I think barefacedkiller wrote a great comment up above ^. Sums the situation up better than my posts. Oddly enough, I always liked S30V and I never thought M-390 was supposed to be "all that". I think marketing phrases like super steel and tactical must have a wild effect on susceptible minds.

When Sal puts out an uber high hardness M-390 Para2, I'll buy one and try it.

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Re: M390 CTS-204P 20CV :) Hype Steel

Postby Doeswhateveraspidercan » Fri Jun 14, 2019 8:23 pm

shunsui wrote:
Fri Jun 14, 2019 7:24 pm
Banter 247 wrote:
Fri Jun 14, 2019 1:28 pm

I’m not OK buying a product presented one way, only to have it delivered another.

I respect your right to not care, and I say that sincerely and without derision. Similarly, I ask that you consider that other people may prefer to get what they pay for.
Tell me about it, I've got a ZDP-189 Mule around here somewhere. Hey, it may be valuable some day to a collector.

I think barefacedkiller wrote a great comment up above ^. Sums the situation up better than my posts. Oddly enough, I always liked S30V and I never thought M-390 was supposed to be "all that". I think marketing phrases like super steel and tactical must have a wild effect on susceptible minds.

When Sal puts out an uber high hardness M-390 Para2, I'll buy one and try it.
No need to wait from what I can tell the Recent DLT release has got ya covered and the flippers are not getting price for them due to public ignorance of the steel used in it. Close on paper but nicer in real use.
:)

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shunsui
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Re: M390 CTS-204P 20CV :) Hype Steel

Postby shunsui » Fri Jun 14, 2019 11:52 pm

Doeswhateveraspidercan wrote:
Fri Jun 14, 2019 8:23 pm
No need to wait from what I can tell the Recent DLT release has got ya covered and the flippers are not getting price for them due to public ignorance of the steel used in it. Close on paper but nicer in real use.
That's enthusiastic, might be possible, but I haven't been chasing the DLT releases.

I'll wait for Sal's verification (if any) and product at the dealer when I'm shopping.

And I'll leave you with this tidbit on Rockwell testing.

https://www.azom.com/article.aspx?ArticleID=15116

"Specimen support is also very critical in Rockwell testing because of the fact that the method involves depth measurement. Any specimen movement is transferred to the indenter and the measurement system, leading to an error being introduced into the test. With the precise nature of the test (bearing in mind that one Rockwell point on the regular scale equals 0.002 mm or 0.00008 of an inch) a movement of only 0.001 of an inch could cause an error of over 10 Rockwell points. The supporting anvil should be selected to match the specimen geometry and to provide full and uncompromised support and it is essential that the anvil is rigid enough to prevent any deformation during use."

Ever hear of a knife tested at say 50 HRC ?
Last edited by shunsui on Sat Jun 15, 2019 2:04 am, edited 1 time in total.


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