Mule Team

[cycleguy]

The idea is releasing a new steel in a limited run for steel junkies to test before putting it into production blades. And having them all be the same model so they can be compared apples to apples. Ideally they would have all been folders from the beginning, so you have many steels in the same blade shape to compare. A Para 3 LW would be a good choice now though because you can compare to all of the Para 3 exclusives in all of the many steels.

I would like to see the purpose of this project expanded for those of us that are late comers in getting the knife passion/sickness. I can't be the only one that falls into this group. Although the prior mules may no longer be new metals to the knife world and long time steel junkies; they are new metals and new experiences for a beginner. I would love to see an occasional re-run of a prior released mule just for people like myself and for those that missed out the first go round. A less expensive FRN handle option (think enuff or jumpmaster) would work for me too. Prefer that this project remain a fixed blade and not a folder.

CG

[steelcity16]

A Para 3 LW would be a good choice now though because you can compare to all of the Para 3 exclusives in all of the many steels.

They would essentially be Para 3 sprints then. No difference, really.

You could call the original mules "fixed model x" and then they were essentially all "fixed model x" sprints. i dont get your point.

There would be the difference of they would only be sold through Spyderco and I would suggest they all have white FRN scales to differentiate them as mules.

[JonLeBlanc]

I would love to see an occasional re-run of a prior released mule just for people like myself and for those that missed out the first go round.

Absolutely, I would jump all over a 52100 mule!

[TomAiello]

The existing fixed mule can do every cutting task that a folding one could do, but cheaper.

Yes, but it can't be EDC'd by a large number of forum members, who live in restrictive jurisdictions.

Exactly! Or even for people who don't live in restrictive areas who just want to be able to carry a mule all day for real world testing. Most people, regardless of profession, aren't carrying fixed blade while on the job. And your arent going to carry a fixed blade while running errands, eating at restaurants, out in public, etc

Depends on where you live, actually. I carry a fixed blade everywhere for more than half the days of the year. Grocery stores, restaurants, bars...no big deal around here.

Still, I totally agree with you on the Mule. I think one of the reasons the original Mule Team program foundered was that it got hijacked by flippers, collectors and "afi's". A folding slip joint "mule" would expand the reach of the program, bringing in a bunch of other people who previously weren't able to participate (regardless of whether they were interested). And it would also grow interest in new steels in another segment of the knife buying public (still on the high end, but definitely less restricted a group than previously).

That's also why I think it should be a slip joint with a blade under 3". Widest possible appeal means the possibility for larger production runs as the program progresses and grows, and that means less chance it will get hijacked by flippers or that entire runs will sell out to collectors.

[sal]

There are many factors that affected the Mule Team project.

1. They were all sold consumer direct at low margins to keep the cost low to the Steel Junky's. This meant fairly low volumes.
2. They were sold without sheaths or handles for the most part which also kept the cost low and our inventory issues simple.
3. If they are sold through dealer networks, the price increases considerably.
4. If we use a folder such as the UK, much higher volumes would have to be made due to minimum quantities the foundries require. I question of the market is large enough. Also the cost of a folder is considerably great to produce.

We can discuss potential options, but remember, the first time I introduced the idea, it was shot down. The second time there was more interest, so I decided to try it. I'm not sure what format could/would work. I'll keep a "drafty brain" (open mind) in the discussion.

sal

[ZrowsN1s]

Sal, am I wrong in assuming a Golden made folder in FRN sold directly through the SFO would be the most feasible/cost-effective option for a folding Mule? If not what would you say the best option?

I'd prefer the para 3 lw, Native lw, or Lil Native lw (if that becomes a thing) as a platform. And prefer to buy direct to keep cost down. But if it needs to be a UK or some other model to either be more marketable or cheaper, I'm open to it. You would know what is best better than we would though. What would you suggest?

[Doc Dan]

I am fine with fixed Mules (mad at myself that I did not buy a K390!). But, a folder like the UKPK, Urban LW, or even an Endela length back lock would work for me. If you were to go with a new fixed blade design, I would rather have something with a 4" blade in the same profile style as the Waterway or the Junction. To me this is more useful for the kinds of things I do with a knife.

I have enjoyed being able to buy the Urban LW's in different steels to try out, BTW. Thanks.

[fixall]

I think the UKPK would be an absolutely amazing package to test new steels with. I think the popularity of the Calyspo Jr Super Blue sprint showed us just how hot of an item a reasonably priced, small folder with a nice slab of steel can be.

The Calypso Jr. is already well regarded and other than the lack of a backlock, the UKPK only improves upon the platform. Deep carry clip, jimping, and a Torx construction. The fact that the UKPK is made in Golden is the icing on the cake. It might just be me, but it seems like the Golden crew has stepped their game up recently. The last two Golden knives I've received (BD1N UKPK and 20CV Manix 2) have had some of the best fit and finish I've seen on a Spyderco.




I have a Mule Team in PD#1 that should be in later today (I need to go to bed). Projects like the Mule Team (and UKPK for that matter) are just one of the many reasons Spyderco is my favorite knife company. I'm super glad I was able to snag one before the Mule Team goes the way of the dinosaurs.

[steelcity16]

Sal, am I wrong in assuming a Golden made folder in FRN sold directly through the SFO would be the most feasible/cost-effective option for a folding Mule?

I'd prefer the para 3 lw, Native lw, or Lil Native lw (if that becomes a thing) as a platform. And prefer to buy direct to keep cost down.

I'm with you here. Here are my thoughts.

Para 3 LW (pretty much guarantees that these won't sit on the shelf for long and is big enough and stout enough for thorough testing...I wouldnt want a non locking folder personally)

White FRN (distinguishes mules and lets users Rit dye)

Engraved Mule logo instead of the Spydie logo (another way to distinguish from "just another sprint")

Sell direct through Spyderco only again

[fixall]

Sal, am I wrong in assuming a Golden made folder in FRN sold directly through the SFO would be the most feasible/cost-effective option for a folding Mule?

I'd prefer the para 3 lw, Native lw, or Lil Native lw (if that becomes a thing) as a platform. And prefer to buy direct to keep cost down.

I'm with you here. Here are my thoughts.

Para 3 LW (pretty much guarantees that these won't sit on the shelf for long and is big enough and stout enough for thorough testing...I wouldnt want a non locking folder personally)

White FRN (distinguishes mules and lets users Rit dye)

Engraved Mule logo instead of the Spydie logo (another way to distinguish from "just another sprint")

Sell direct through Spyderco only again

Man... We are in opposite worlds, lol.

I love the Para 3. I wouldn't be a huge fan of it at a platform to try out new steels for a few reasons. The FRN Para 3 is nearly twice the cost of the UKPK and the new steels will only increase the cost. With a new version coming out every few months or so, I worry that would hinder too many people from purchasing them. I also find the blade stock on the Para 3 to be a bit thick to show off the aspects of the steel that would interest me and others.

I'm very against white FRN as Rit dye is easily scratched and I don't want dye the handle every few months, or at all for that matter.

I love the engraved Mule logo and keeping it direct from Spyderco though, lol. :D

[Albatross]

It's already been said, but anything with a lock will mean UK residents will be excluded from this, due to their ridiculous laws. UKPK would allow them to purchase "mules", which would open up a portion of the market that sees very little in the way of special steels. Unless we see a Para 3 slip joint, it probably isn't the best candidate. I would love to see the PM2, Manix 2, Military, or Endura, but my favorites aren't exactly going to be worthwhile for Spyderco to make mules out of. Fixed blade options seem the most logical, with slip joints as a close 2nd.

One of the problems I see with some of these folders is that there's just not enough blade to truly test some of the steels we will want. Maybe it's just me, but if I'm going to buy a knife to test a new steel, I want a large handle and large blade. Thick stock at 3" doesn't allow for the same kind of testing as something in the 3.5-4.5" range. This is what made the mules so great.

The other problem I see is the low likelihood of us all agreeing. Some want one model, some want another. Some want one lock, some want another. Maybe a separate thread, with a poll about locking vs non-locking vs fixed? Maybe even a 2nd thread afterward, with a 2nd poll, for which model people would be interested in. A good thing to gauge as well, would be what price range people might be comfortable with. All this info would help Sal and the gang see what kind of demand there is and what amount people will pay.

[steelcity16]

The other problem I see is the low likelihood of us all agreeing. Some want one model, some want another. Some want one lock, some want another. Maybe a separate thread, with a poll about locking vs non-locking vs fixed? Maybe even a 2nd thread afterward, with a 2nd poll, for which model people would be interested in. A good thing to gauge as well, would be what price range people might be comfortable with. All this info would help Sal and the gang see what kind of demand there is and what amount people will pay.

Hot Wheels does "selections" cars each year for their collectors club which is a result of multiple polls. First a poll for model, then color, then wheels. I like the idea of multiple polls.

1. Folder vs Fixed
2. Model (UKPK, Para 3 LW, Manix LW, Native LW, etc)
3. Scale color (white, clear FRCP, smoke FRCP, etc)

[Albatross]

The other problem I see is the low likelihood of us all agreeing. Some want one model, some want another. Some want one lock, some want another. Maybe a separate thread, with a poll about locking vs non-locking vs fixed? Maybe even a 2nd thread afterward, with a 2nd poll, for which model people would be interested in. A good thing to gauge as well, would be what price range people might be comfortable with. All this info would help Sal and the gang see what kind of demand there is and what amount people will pay.

Hot Wheels does "selections" cars each year for their collectors club which is a result of multiple polls. First a poll for model, then color, then wheels. I like the idea of multiple polls.

1. Folder vs Fixed
2. Model (UKPK, Para 3 LW, Manix LW, Native LW, etc)
3. Scale color (white, clear FRCP, smoke FRCP, etc)

I would add...

4. Price range ($75-100, $100-125, $125-150, $150-200) or even simpler, (less than $100, less than $200)

This way, if production costs are higher than the price we are willing to pay for the model we request, we could maybe alter the model or (hopefully not) accept our fate.

[Bill1170]

I own a few Mules. A simple fixed blade without handle scales seems like the best way to do them.

-just the essence, a steel blade and tang
-spartan design limited initial market to steel junkies
-lower cost for a given blade
-customizable!

I carry folders, seldom fixed blades. Nevertheless it made sense to me for the MT blades to be fixed blades without scales. In testing things you want to eliminate unnecessary variables, and a folding mechanism introduces many of them, along with higher cost.

[David R]

Interesting discussion. Not sure I'm quite getting the point of considering a folder platform for a "Mule" knife for the reasons Sal discussed. I would be thrilled if Spyderco did more Mules and sold them directly. This may not be a viable option financially.

For me the whole point of a Mule knife is try out the steel. It doesn't have to be a carryable knife, which is one of the reasons the price is lower. If future Mules are folders and go through the regular Sales channels, I would expect them to be a $130+ knife. For testing steel I would also prefer at 3" blade and a good handle. Not a requirement, but a preference.

Maybe a stupid question, but how would this be any different from what Spyderco does now? They've released the PM2 with 15+ different steels. If they just keep going, is this not the same thing people are asking for?

I own a few Mules. A simple fixed blade without handle scales seems like the best way to do them.

-just the essence, a steel blade and tang
-spartan design limited initial market to steel junkies
-lower cost for a given blade
-customizable!

I carry folders, seldom fixed blades. Nevertheless it made sense to me for the MT blades to be fixed blades without scales. In testing things you want to eliminate unnecessary variables, and a folding mechanism introduces many of them, along with higher cost.

Same here. I have over a dozen different Mules and appreciate the consistency between them. There are differences, but they're minor. Not having handles or sheaths included keeps the price down. My vote is to keep the Mule as is, if possible. If not, more Para 3s or PM2s with different steels works just fine. If it's a folder I'd prefer locking. I get that this excludes some people. Safety issue for me.

[steelcity16]

Maybe a stupid question, but how would this be any different from what Spyderco does now? They've released the PM2 with 15+ different steels. If they just keep going, is this not the same thing people are asking for?

My interpretation would be that it allows users to test the steel in an "unofficial release" before they invest in a large order of the steel for a full round of sprints in steels like Rex45. That way if the steel ends up a "poor performer" in the minds of the users, it isn't as big of a deal because it was part of a testing program and not an official Spyderco production release. So a Para 3 LW mule sold directly through Spyderco only, as a designated mule (mule-only unique FRN color, mule logo instead of spydie, etc) would actually be different then them just releasing a brand new steel as an official sprint that is sold throughout their distribution network.

For me the whole point of a Mule knife is try out the steel. It doesn't have to be a carryable knife, which is one of the reasons the price is lower.

The problem for me is time. I don't have the time to try out the steel in a fixed blade format because I would only have access to it at home, and I don't have the time to sit and cut rope or cardboard for an hour a day. The test for me is real world use and the ability to tackle whatever life throws at it by having it on me 24/7, which for me would need be a locking folder like the Para/Native/Manix LWs. So for me to participate in the mule program, it would indeed have to be a carryable knife. Otherwise it would rarely get used...hence why I still haven't bought a PD-1 mule, or any mule for that matter.

[TomAiello]

4. If we use a folder such as the UK, much higher volumes would have to be made due to minimum quantities the foundries require. I question of the market is large enough. Also the cost of a folder is considerably great to produce.

Is that because of the size of the blade itself (much smaller, so more blades from the same quantity of steel)?

I wonder if that could be helped by slowing down the release interval a lot? If you were only running one mule per year, for example, that would give enough time to sell a larger inventory before the next shiny thing rolled down the pike. Plus, it would eliminate the "sold out to flippers" problem that happened with some of the more popular models.

I wonder if you could get distributors or retailers to partner in runs? For example, if the 20cv mule were a knifeworks exclusive, the Z-wear was a DLT exclusive, etc. That way you could spread the risk out to a partner, and they'd also get a cool exclusive. I guess the problem would be that they would fight over the ones that were more likely to be faster sellers.

[ZrowsN1s]

A few observations....

1. We will HAVE to compromise. There is no make everyone happy scenario here.

2. We should go with what will get most the steels in the hands of most people.

3. The purpose of the folder is because..
a. The fixed mules weren't selling enough.
b. Carry restrictions both domestic and
international for fixed blades.

So, dependent on my assumption that Golden Made FRN Knives sold direct from SFO is the best option. And assuming that our international spydie brethern can order and have shipped through SFO....

It would seem the UKPK is the best option.

My reasoning:
For shipping to Canada, UK, EU and other places and Legal Carry in those places. (Being able to carry a knife is essential for real world testing) I'd love a locking blade, but don't want to cut out people who can't carry those. So I'm willing to compromise. That model would also keep costs down. It also has a thin blade, and should be able to handle 'cutting' even without a lock (it's got a choil so your fingers are safe anyways) :D

As for handle color I'd prefer white. Customization is fun, and I don't want 20 knives all the same. For those that don't want to customize, compromise and live with the white (like I do with yellow for salt knives). We could vote on color though, and if it came down to it I'd live with 20 blue or black or whatever knives to try the steels.

If we don't compromise this will never happen. We all have our preferences for locks, blade size, color, model..... So the question is, can you compromise to get the STEEL?

[steelcity16]

If we don't compromise this will never happen. We all have our preferences for locks, blade size, color, model..... So the question is, can you compromise to get the STEEL?

I agree with all of this. Folding, Golden Made, SFO sales channel, White FRN, etc. My compromise would be the UKPK over a locking folder like the Para 3 LW or Native LW. I would REALLY prefer locking, but maybe I could live with a UKPK for the good of the program. I would need to order a current UKPK for a trial run first before committing to the program though. To see if my slipjoint fears are unfounded. :)

[fixall]

The UKPK may not have a lock, but it takes quite a bit of force to release it once it is open. It also has a half stop... It's not going to snap shut on you. I really think people need to try the UKPK before ruling it out. I never had much interest in one until I got the urge to try BD1N, and it's completely blown me away.