s30v spyderco's acceptable

Discuss Spyderco's products and history.
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Wartstein
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Re: s30v spyderco's acceptable

#81

Post by Wartstein »

Woodpuppy wrote:
Sat Apr 13, 2019 2:12 pm
Wartstein wrote:
Sat Apr 13, 2019 11:50 am
Hi Wartstein,

I think the key message of my (admittedly long winded) post is that I developed a grudge against s30v, that my sharpening skills have since improved such that my former nemesis has been vanquished, and having beaten it, am done with it. After all, grudges are slightly irrational. I’m good with that :D
Thanks for your reply! Btw, I just learned a new English word through it :) : "Grudge", really had to look that one up in a dictionary... (and I think it sounds like what it should express, in English as well as in German (there it would be "Groll" ;) )
Top three going by pocket-time (update March 24):
- EDC: Endura thin red line ffg combo edge (VG10); Wayne Goddard PE (4V), Endela SE (VG10)
-Mountains/outdoors: Pac.Salt 1 SE (H1), Salt 2 SE (LC200N), and also Wayne Goddard PE (4V)
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Woodpuppy
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Re: s30v spyderco's acceptable

#82

Post by Woodpuppy »

I like words that sound like their meanings!
koenigsegg
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Re: s30v spyderco's acceptable

#83

Post by koenigsegg »

p_atrick wrote:
Sat Apr 13, 2019 2:20 pm
Cost is more than just the price you pay. If 20CV takes longer to grind, then you have an opportunity cost in producing 20CV over S30V. Also, you probably have to go through more/different types of abrasives. I don't do any amateur knife making myself, so I can say how much longer it takes or how much better abrasives cost. Perhaps somebody else could chime in, but I think the cost goes beyond the price of the steel itself.
I was talking about final asking price not just the price of the steel
S30V, VG10, M4, XHP, BD1, Cruwear, Elmax, Maxamet, 204P, H1, K390, A11, Rex45, LC200N, M390, 20CV, BD1N, S45VN waiting to afford MagnaCut
Doeswhateveraspidercan
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Re: s30v spyderco's acceptable

#84

Post by Doeswhateveraspidercan »

Vivi wrote:
Sat Apr 13, 2019 1:37 pm
Albatross wrote:
Sat Apr 13, 2019 1:33 pm
Vivi wrote:
Sat Apr 13, 2019 1:21 pm

...Either way you want a clean apex with no detectable bur and at least shaving sharpness, regardless of grit...
Exactly.

I forget who said it, but you should be able to shave with the most coarse stone you use, before progressing. If you can do that, you'll have a great edge, no matter the steel.
Absolutely. If I can get a clean shave off my reprofiling stone I don't progress.
Oh now this is good information!

So ok let me get this straight let’s say I use my Wicked edge pro at 100 Grit reprofiling a Military to 15 degrees or lower if at this very coarse level shaving arm hair is possible?

Or is that too coarse?

Once achieved then proceed with Grit progression correct?
Doeswhateveraspidercan
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Re: s30v spyderco's acceptable

#85

Post by Doeswhateveraspidercan »

Doeswhateveraspidercan wrote:
Sat Apr 13, 2019 2:32 pm
Vivi wrote:
Sat Apr 13, 2019 1:37 pm
Albatross wrote:
Sat Apr 13, 2019 1:33 pm
Vivi wrote:
Sat Apr 13, 2019 1:21 pm

...Either way you want a clean apex with no detectable bur and at least shaving sharpness, regardless of grit...
Exactly.

I forget who said it, but you should be able to shave with the most coarse stone you use, before progressing. If you can do that, you'll have a great edge, no matter the steel.
Absolutely. If I can get a clean shave off my reprofiling stone I don't progress.
Oh now this is good information!

So ok let me get this straight let’s say I use my Wicked edge pro at 100 Grit reprofiling a Military to 15 degrees or lower at this very coarse level shaving arm hair is possible?

Or is that too coarse?

Once achieved then proceed with Grit progression correct?
Doeswhateveraspidercan
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Re: s30v spyderco's acceptable

#86

Post by Doeswhateveraspidercan »

Albatross wrote:
Sat Apr 13, 2019 1:33 pm
Vivi wrote:
Sat Apr 13, 2019 1:21 pm

...Either way you want a clean apex with no detectable bur and at least shaving sharpness, regardless of grit...
Exactly.

I forget who said it, but you should be able to shave with the most coarse stone you use, before progressing. If you can do that, you'll have a great edge, no matter the steel.
Thanks for bringing that out great to know always thought it only possible around 1000 Grit an higher
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Re: s30v spyderco's acceptable

#87

Post by Woodpuppy »

The key for shaving sharp off coarse stones is a very light touch. For example, if using the sharpmaker, don’t hold the base and if you move the unit you’re pressing too hard.
Doeswhateveraspidercan
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Re: s30v spyderco's acceptable

#88

Post by Doeswhateveraspidercan »

youmakemehole wrote:
Sat Apr 13, 2019 2:06 pm
Doeswhateveraspidercan wrote:
Sat Apr 13, 2019 1:04 pm
Thanks for the informative reply. I already own and use both a Hapstone 7 and Wicked edge pro3 with diamond stones, Silicone carbide strops etc.

Things I would think might help would be bevel angle, degree of finished polish, thinning behind the blade, bur removal, wire blade removal hints and tips and other things.

For example single 15 degree bevel no micro bevel finish at what Grit? 600, 800, 1000 sub micron stropping?

Should one strop to get rid of bur or wire edge with S30V ?

Things like this.
Finishing at 600 grit and 1000 grit diamond will be great for S30V. I'm currently trying out a 4k almost-mirror polished edge from ruby stones on muy Ikuchi, so i will likely report back here some time int eh near future on how that went. Also if you strop, make sure you are using diamond compounds ONLY.
Missed seeing a link for these ruby stones please send PM or paste here the serrations they may service are of interest.
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Re: s30v spyderco's acceptable

#89

Post by BigKenbo »

youmakemehole wrote:
Sat Apr 13, 2019 12:04 pm
Doeswhateveraspidercan wrote:
Sat Apr 13, 2019 9:27 am
what is your recommended way of brining our the best in S30V.
All steels with a lot of vanadium carbide will require diamonds or cbn to get a good edge. A sharpening platform like the Spyderco triangle or Lansky is necessary for keeping the stones at the right angles. Diamond and cbn can be expensive, esespecially for those sharpening systems, you may feel like you arent getting substantial diamond/cbn for the price you pay. However for someone just starting out with sharpening, its probably the only way you can get a very professional edge with very little experience.

If you have a little practice with ceramic rods or small pocketstones, I would highly recommend you check out amazon for rods and pocket stones made out of something called sintered ruby. It is almost as hard as CBN and diamond, it will cut vanadium carbides and even leave it with a very polished finish. Only thing is sintered ruby comes at around 4k grit and nothing else, so it can be both your start and finish if your edge needs a touch up, but if you need to remove more material or want a finer edge you will have to find those in other sharpening mediums. If you are creative enough you can take those sintered ruby stones from amazon and fashion something that works in your Lansky or other sharpening system you decide to get. On a side note, finishing S30V at 4k is more than enough, you won't need S30V any finer than that usually.

If you are willing to spend a few extra bucks to get something proper and capable for everything you will need to sharpen supersteels, I'd suggest the KME system that comes with diamond stones, or the Spyderco Sharpmaker with the diamond and CBN rods on top as well. Let me know if you still have any questions!
I just replied to give everyone another chance to read this post again. Because its dead on point, very helpful, clear, and concise.
Native 5 S110V G10 and LW. S90V LW. Salt LC200N. Maxamet. S30V G10 and LW. Endura 4 ZDP-189. HAP40. VG10.
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Albatross
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Re: s30v spyderco's acceptable

#90

Post by Albatross »

youmakemehole wrote:
Sat Apr 13, 2019 2:19 pm
Albatross wrote:
Sat Apr 13, 2019 2:04 pm
youmakemehole wrote:
Sat Apr 13, 2019 1:51 pm
Are you sure you get the same edge? I couldve sworn ive seen pictures of 2 side by side edges, one sharpened with diamond and one without - the one without had an apex that was rougher, less clean, and you could see the bumps very visibly where carbides stuck out of the steel where the softer surroundings have been eroded. The edge made with diamond was clean and crisp with straight lines, the vanadium carbides were cut on the same lines as everything else, and each side of the apex was flat like it should be. I don't think its accurate to make judgements based on one youtuber's single experiment.. is your opinion based off your own experiences as well? Cause i can promise you that mine are! Supersteel steve also just has this bias where he is bent on disproving every established bit of commonly accepted steel understanding, which, props to him, some of them are wrong indeed and should be challenged, but some are ridiculously and incorrectly "busted" so to speak, one I can remember off the top of my head was where he somehow interpreted the results of 3 different knives in 3 different steels in 3 different tests to imply that heat treats to a lower HRC for the same given steel never in any cases produce higher toughness, and therefore a higher HRC is always better, that was just completely wrong from the start and I don't know if he ever corrected himself after. Either way, if you already have a preconceived bias for a certain something, your experiment and resulting data will likely be biased and at the very least the interpretation of the data will be biased for sure.
I did not say you will get the same edge, I said Steve showed no difference in edge retention. His other tests and theories are a separate topic. In my experience with S30V, using diamond and alumina, I haven't seen a difference. Maybe with something like S110V I would see a difference, but I'm only speculating there. If you notice a difference, it could be the material(s) you cut vs what I cut. Honestly, if we need to look under a microscope to find differences, I'm not convinced that translates well into noticable real world results.
Well, see thats kinda my point. If we get a different edge one that is not defined/formed as cleanly, that also breaks down faster, it would seem strange to have the same retention. This is where any bias could've influenced the data - there are other factors Steve is in control of that could influence those numbers in addition to just the edge. Also, I am not accusing him of this btw, but there is always a chance somebody is just straight up lying to save face or not to look stupid in front of their audience aka source of income. Knowing that there are many ways a single source can be fallible means an objective person is not going to base their own personal opinions 100% on a single source, but rather multiple sources, and ideally do their best to create their own opinions based off of their own experiences as well. I believe Michael Christy has a differing opinion on this topic, one that is more closely aligned with mine. My opinion is what it is after I felt like I have collected enough information from separate sources, as well as the context behind those opinions, and try to get some first hand exposure as well before I go around and tell people what I think is fact. I would highly encourage many people on this forum to strive to be collectors of perspective as well, the more perspectives you have, the more superior yours will be which is formed from aggregating all those perspectives.
If my own experiences, prior to Steve's testing, show no difference in retention, I'm not sure what else to say. I could easily shave off sub 300 grit finishes, so it's not a matter of how sharp the knife was. Beyond Steve's test, I'm not aware of any others, and have only heard theories, opinions, and anecdotes. If other tests exist, I would be willing to check them out. For me to change my mind, I would need to personally experience different results, or see video evidence of a faster wearing edge, that became dull as a result of tearout.

As for the edge finish, breakdown, and retention, the material(s) cut would have to be the only explanation for our differing results. This should be tested. If it comes down to the relative strength of the matrix vs the abrasive properties and hardness of the material(s) being cut, why would you discount that variable? What would you say is the difference in retention you have seen? What percentage would you suggest?

I had no biases(and still don't), and truly never gave a thought to any of this, until I had already established my own rough data and heard plenty of talk about tearout.

Michael Christy does disagree with me, but again, my reference point is S30V. I use diamond stones almost exclusively now, opposed to a few years ago, using alumina. I can't personally speak for other steels and refuse to take anecdotes as truth. I don't expect anyone to take my anecdotes as truth either.

You also said S30V would be fine with Sharpmaker stones, which is this whole topic. When I disagreed with carbide tearout, it was on this very same steel. I just don't see it happening.
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Re: s30v spyderco's acceptable

#91

Post by BigKenbo »

p_atrick wrote:
Sat Apr 13, 2019 2:20 pm
koenigsegg wrote:
Sat Apr 13, 2019 2:14 pm
It could be an availability issue but I don't think it's cost. I've seen as little as $7 difference in retail price between S30V and 20CV. I just don't wanna pay scalpers prices for a knife and I never have the money when it comes for sale at a retailer.
Cost is more than just the price you pay. If 20CV takes longer to grind, then you have an opportunity cost in producing 20CV over S30V. Also, you probably have to go through more/different types of abrasives. I don't do any amateur knife making myself, so I can say how much longer it takes or how much better abrasives cost. Perhaps somebody else could chime in, but I think the cost goes beyond the price of the steel itself.
I was basically doing a dirt poor job of saying this when i used the term processes. Thanks for clarifying my ham fisted comment. :)
Native 5 S110V G10 and LW. S90V LW. Salt LC200N. Maxamet. S30V G10 and LW. Endura 4 ZDP-189. HAP40. VG10.
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Re: s30v spyderco's acceptable

#92

Post by youmakemehole »

Theres costs of raw materials, costs of labor, costs of running the business itself, and then yes theres a thing called opportunity cost with is more like the value you would gain or lose had you used the labor or materials in a different way.

edit: @albatross I usually start to form new opinions after I have experienced something relevant myself, and then if I feel my experience was objective enoguh, I'll go and compare opinions that echo from something similar that I've experienced and the opinions that are in direct opposition of that, then if my own diligence beforehand and while comparing was good enough I likely build on my opinion with other ones that are similar and consistent to my own initial understandings. In this case, I had trouble with high carbide steels and S30V long before I watched Supersteel Steve and Michael Christy. I'd get edges that would seem to finish very sharp but then lose the edge faster than D2 or VG10 in my other knives. After watching some youtube videos, the understanding that most of the knife and steel community goes with as well as Michael Christies explanation was enough for me to get the rest of the picture and close out my need to discover any more info about that topic. Supersteel steve's opinion sounds very similar to what I think is fact, but he changes a few key components so he can feed his own ego and also go "look guys, I busted this stupid myth that everyone believes in" and gain whatever recognition he gets from that. But all he does is feed people half truths, and his goal and intent as you can tell by his attitude is to be recognized as some hero that finds truth by defying and questioning the status quo. Michael Christy on the other hand, just wants to be as objective as possible and produce objective information for his viewers. There is nothing in his attitude that suggests he is doing it for his own glory and ego. These attitudes alone can tell you a lot about what the right way to view the ideas and opinions they produce. Intention, principles, and attitudes are everything as far as context goes, just imagine if your mom/gf asked you a question like "where are your car keys?" as opposed to a stranger asking you the same thing on the street, it could be the exact same question but because you have the intuition you do now and not one of a 3 year old, you will understand those two situations should be viewed as extremely different circumstances. S30V is just a less hardcore version of S90V. Whatever S90V does, S30V will probably very likely do as well, just to a lesser extent. Knowing what to believe in isnt just picking the more charismatic or compelling character you see on youtube. There is deception, confusion, and misinformation everywhere you look these days.. no human is perfect and so therefore we all can be compromised, bought out or corrupted at some point, if you are not developing your own decision making system and continuously building your intuition on how to determine between truth and lies or trustworthy and untrustworthy, and think you can take everything at face value or just follow the status quo without doing any work yourself to make accurate judgements, one day you will suddenly find yourself trapped in a horrifying place. Anyways, if you have never had experience with using and sharpening s30v or s90v on both normal and diamond plates, and just want me to somehow disprove Supersteel steve's statements, I dont have anything quantitative for you. I dont feel that I have a need to either, I know clearly what I believe in, nobody will change it at this point unless they provide compelling evidence, and I am just going to share what I believe in and why so people who have not yet been exposed to my perspective can add it to their collections. Sorry if I sounded like I was ranting, its just that knives and steels are great and all, but I care much more about the things I was talking about since right now it is more crucial a time as ever for us as humans, guardians and keepers of our troubled planet Earth to make sure we are being diligent when deciding what to believe in, and that we hone our intuitions and not just our knives, so that we can collectively wake up from our mass complacency and ignorance to recognize how close we are to collapse and disaster on many and multiple fronts, and hopefully start to reverse from sorry state of affairs we have gotten ourselves into. Starting with how to watch youtubers in the right context, yes. a joke but actually really not a joke :(
Last edited by youmakemehole on Sat Apr 13, 2019 4:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Sometimes I think that we're all little kids trying to act like grown ups, in our parents clothes. ;) "

-sal
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dreadpirate
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Re: s30v spyderco's acceptable

#93

Post by dreadpirate »

Heck - VG-10 is good enough for me. I buy "super" steels to collect, not because they are required. One exception would be H1 for for more caustic environments.
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Albatross
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Re: s30v spyderco's acceptable

#94

Post by Albatross »

youmakemehole wrote:
Sat Apr 13, 2019 3:33 pm
Theres costs of raw materials, costs of labor, costs of running the business itself, and then yes theres a thing called opportunity cost with is more like the value you would gain or lose had you used the labor or materials in a different way.

edit: @albatross I usually start to form new opinions after I have experienced something relevant myself, and then if I feel my experience was objective enoguh, I'll go and compare opinions that echo from something similar that I've experienced and the opinions that are in direct opposition of that, then if my own diligence beforehand and while comparing was good enough I likely build on my opinion with other ones that are similar and consistent to my own initial understandings. In this case, I had trouble with high carbide steels and S30V long before I watched Supersteel Steve and Michael Christy. I'd get edges that would seem to finish very sharp but then lose the edge faster than D2 or VG10 in my other knives. After watching some youtube videos, the understanding that most of the knife and steel community goes with as well as Michael Christies explanation was enough for me to get the rest of the picture and close out my need to discover any more info about that topic. Supersteel steve's opinion sounds very similar to what I think is fact, but he changes a few key components so he can feed his own ego and also go "look guys, I busted this stupid myth that everyone believes in" and gain whatever recognition he gets from that. But all he does is feed people half truths, and his goal and intent as you can tell by his attitude is to be recognized as some hero that finds truth by defying and questioning the status quo. Michael Christy on the other hand, just wants to be as objective as possible and produce objective information for his viewers. There is nothing in his attitude that suggests he is doing it for his own glory and ego. These attitudes alone can tell you a lot about what the right way to view the ideas and opinions they produce. Intention, principles, and attitudes are everything as far as context goes, just imagine if your mom/gf asked you a question like "where are your car keys?" as opposed to a stranger asking you the same thing on the street, it could be the exact same question but because you have the intuition you do now and not one of a 3 year old, you will understand those two situations should be viewed as extremely different circumstances. S30V is just a less hardcore version of S90V. Whatever S90V does, S30V will probably very likely do as well, just to a lesser extent. Knowing what to believe in isnt just picking the more charismatic or compelling character you see on youtube. There is deception, confusion, and misinformation everywhere you look these days.. no human is perfect and so therefore we all can be compromised, bought out or corrupted at some point, if you are not developing your own decision making system and continuously building your intuition on how to determine between truth and lies or trustworthy and untrustworthy, and think you can take everything at face value or just follow the status quo without doing any work yourself to make accurate judgements, one day you will suddenly find yourself trapped in a horrifying place. Anyways, if you have never had experience with using and sharpening s30v or s90v on both normal and diamond plates, and just want me to somehow disprove Supersteel steve's statements, I dont have anything quantitative for you. I dont feel that I have a need to either, I know clearly what I believe in, nobody will change it at this point unless they provide compelling evidence, and I am just going to share what I believe in and why so people who have not yet been exposed to my perspective can add it to their collections. Sorry if I sounded like I was ranting, its just that knives and steels are great and all, but I care much more about the things I was talking about since right now it is more crucial a time as ever for us as humans, guardians and keepers of our troubled planet Earth to make sure we are being diligent when deciding what to believe in, and that we hone our intuitions and not just our knives, so that we can collectively wake up from our mass complacency and ignorance to recognize how close we are to collapse and disaster on many and multiple fronts, and hopefully start to reverse from sorry state of affairs we have gotten ourselves into. Starting with how to watch youtubers in the right context, yes. a joke but actually really not a joke :(
Now you're just being offensive. I said I had my own experiences, prior to seeing the video. I said I had experience with both types of stones on S30V. You either missed the multiple times I mentioned those things, or are choosing to ignore them. Insisting that I formed an opinion, based on someone you clearly dislike, goes directly against what I have said. Anecdotes don't equal proof, so it's hardly a strong starting point. You ignored the questions I had about your experiences and skirted around the issue, then questioned my intentions, with your assumptions. I stopped reading about 3/4 through.

It's best we leave it here, before this thread goes any further south.
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Re: s30v spyderco's acceptable

#95

Post by koenigsegg »

BigKenbo wrote:
Sat Apr 13, 2019 3:21 pm
p_atrick wrote:
Sat Apr 13, 2019 2:20 pm
koenigsegg wrote:
Sat Apr 13, 2019 2:14 pm
It could be an availability issue but I don't think it's cost. I've seen as little as $7 difference in retail price between S30V and 20CV. I just don't wanna pay scalpers prices for a knife and I never have the money when it comes for sale at a retailer.
Cost is more than just the price you pay. If 20CV takes longer to grind, then you have an opportunity cost in producing 20CV over S30V. Also, you probably have to go through more/different types of abrasives. I don't do any amateur knife making myself, so I can say how much longer it takes or how much better abrasives cost. Perhaps somebody else could chime in, but I think the cost goes beyond the price of the steel itself.
I was basically doing a dirt poor job of saying this when i used the term processes. Thanks for clarifying my ham fisted comment. :)
Well from the way I've heard Sal talk he would have taken cost of abrasives and labor into account when pricing his knives. Last year the DLC 20CV PM2 was $142 when a PM2 S30V was $135. I would gladly pay $7 more all day for a 20CV version. Not saying S30V isn't great I just want the option.
S30V, VG10, M4, XHP, BD1, Cruwear, Elmax, Maxamet, 204P, H1, K390, A11, Rex45, LC200N, M390, 20CV, BD1N, S45VN waiting to afford MagnaCut
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Re: s30v spyderco's acceptable

#96

Post by Doeswhateveraspidercan »

Woodpuppy wrote:
Sat Apr 13, 2019 2:38 pm
The key for shaving sharp off coarse stones is a very light touch. For example, if using the sharpmaker, don’t hold the base and if you move the unit you’re pressing too hard.
Thanks for that I admit I have to remind myself constantly easy does it light touch on the sharpmaker
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Re: s30v spyderco's acceptable

#97

Post by youmakemehole »

btw guys, sorry Does i had missed your post earlier:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07JDJ61DM/
"Sometimes I think that we're all little kids trying to act like grown ups, in our parents clothes. ;) "

-sal
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Re: s30v spyderco's acceptable

#98

Post by Woodpuppy »

Doeswhateveraspidercan wrote:
Sat Apr 13, 2019 5:25 pm
Woodpuppy wrote:
Sat Apr 13, 2019 2:38 pm
The key for shaving sharp off coarse stones is a very light touch. For example, if using the sharpmaker, don’t hold the base and if you move the unit you’re pressing too hard.
Thanks for that I admit I have to remind myself constantly easy does it light touch on the sharpmaker
It helps me to write it down :) seriously this little tidbit was a big part of the journey in improving my skills. Combined with the sharpie marker and using a hand lens to be able to actually see where you’re removing steel.
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Re: s30v spyderco's acceptable

#99

Post by Doeswhateveraspidercan »

youmakemehole wrote:
Sat Apr 13, 2019 5:49 pm
btw guys, sorry Does i had missed your post earlier:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07JDJ61DM/
Thank you.
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Re: s30v spyderco's acceptable

#100

Post by p_atrick »

koenigsegg wrote:
Sat Apr 13, 2019 5:15 pm
Well from the way I've heard Sal talk he would have taken cost of abrasives and labor into account when pricing his knives. Last year the DLC 20CV PM2 was $142 when a PM2 S30V was $135. I would gladly pay $7 more all day for a 20CV version. Not saying S30V isn't great I just want the option.
I misunderstood. When you said a $7 difference, I assumed you were talking the price of steel from some place like Alpha Knife Supply. Apologies.
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