Byrd with high-end steel

Discuss Spyderco's byrd knives.
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ferider
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Byrd with high-end steel

Postby ferider » Mon Feb 25, 2019 9:31 am

Forgive me if that's been asked before. On and off I am attracted to several Byrd knives, but never push the button due to being a steel snob :o .

In particular the Resilience, Tenacious and Cara Cara 2 seem attractive (love the CC2 choil when compared to the Endura).

Now, I understand that moving knife production to a different site is a major investment. On the other hand, we know S35VN and M390 are readily available in China. So how about a CC2 in M390 ? :)

Roland.

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Re: Byrd with high-end steel

Postby Larry_Mott » Mon Feb 25, 2019 9:40 am

I think it kind of defeats the purpose of having a "value line" (By the way, Resilience and Tenacious are Spyderco, not Byrd)
Kinda like buying a Dacia Duster with the same specs as a Porsche Cayenne, and inevitably very close to the same price. I don't think a lot of people would go for the Dacia..
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Re: Byrd with high-end steel

Postby sal » Mon Feb 25, 2019 10:17 am

Hi Ferider,

It's more complicated than it might appear. First of all, I don't know that S35VN and M390 are readily available in China. I have heard that some of the Chinese makers are using the steels, but I've not personally tested any of them. I heard that they were buying directly from the foundries, but again, I have no verification of that.

sal

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Re: Byrd with high-end steel

Postby MichaelScott » Mon Feb 25, 2019 10:26 am

The more I learn about knives, the more there is to learn. The more I learn about the business the more layered and complicated it becomes. A deep well indeed.
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Re: Byrd with high-end steel

Postby cbrstar » Mon Feb 25, 2019 1:33 pm

What about D2? Plenty of Chinese companies are using that steel.

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Re: Byrd with high-end steel

Postby anagarika » Tue Feb 26, 2019 5:56 am

cbrstar wrote:
Mon Feb 25, 2019 1:33 pm
What about D2? Plenty of Chinese companies are using that steel.
Hope this helps about Chinese D2
viewtopic.php?f=14&t=77258&p=1253878&hi ... 2#p1253878
Chris :spyder:

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Re: Byrd with high-end steel

Postby sal » Tue Feb 26, 2019 8:04 am

Thanx Anagarika.

sal

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Re: Byrd with high-end steel

Postby ferider » Tue Feb 26, 2019 10:41 am

sal wrote:
Mon Feb 25, 2019 10:17 am
Hi Ferider,

It's more complicated than it might appear. First of all, I don't know that S35VN and M390 are readily available in China. I have heard that some of the Chinese makers are using the steels, but I've not personally tested any of them. I heard that they were buying directly from the foundries, but again, I have no verification of that.

sal
Hi Sal,

per Bob Shabala (https://knifeinformer.com/interview-wit ... lty-metals), NSM sells at least S35VN to Kizer in China. I have a couple of these knives and the steel feels good. Not as nice as Spyderco's S35VN, and I'm not trying to brown-nose you :) My S35VN PM2 is amazing when it comes to compromise between edge holding, corrosion resistance and ease of sharpening (on a wet-stone). Would be great to have that steel in the Cara Cara 2 :)

Thanks for your answer anyways, Sal.

Roland.

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Re: Byrd with high-end steel

Postby cbrstar » Tue Feb 26, 2019 9:11 pm

anagarika wrote:
Tue Feb 26, 2019 5:56 am
cbrstar wrote:
Mon Feb 25, 2019 1:33 pm
What about D2? Plenty of Chinese companies are using that steel.
Hope this helps about Chinese D2
viewtopic.php?f=14&t=77258&p=1253878&hi ... 2#p1253878
Fair enough a company that fakes a knife is likely going to fake steel as well. But there has been some more reputable companies in China that have been making knives from D2 or CR12mov (lack of 1% 1% Vanadium) for a while now. Then there's also companies like Kershaw who make very popular models like the Copper Natrix in D2.

These two vids you might find interesting the Knife reviewer had a few Chinese knifes tested with XRF Analyzer. The results may surprise you.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YGeKHMztk0A

2nd Batch

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cqsvN3XtYEQ

I can understand how a higher end steel like D2 might not fit in the Spyderco line up with byrd. But at the same I think a limited run of D2 with the new factory would generate some excitement and maybe give byrd a shot in the arm.

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Re: Byrd with high-end steel

Postby sal » Wed Feb 27, 2019 9:00 am

Hi Cbrstar,

Thanx for your references. We've watched them on the past. We have tested their D2 and we've elected not to use it, at least not for Spyderco. I'll present your case for byrd.

We have no problem with using higher end steels on byrd brand. But we have to know that the steel is good (clean) and that the maker can work with it. We are trying this with the Polestar and the Alcyone (CTS-BD1). The maker has his own modern heat treating ovens and he's a knife afi. But sales results have not shown that the market is responding to the higher end steel, we think because of the price difference.

Kizer has their own heat treating facility. We've met with them a few times and they want to work with us. We've not moved forward. However, working with Kizer will be more expensive than byrd brand prices.

sal

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Re: Byrd with high-end steel

Postby carrot » Wed Feb 27, 2019 10:05 am

sal wrote:
Wed Feb 27, 2019 9:00 am
Kizer has their own heat treating facility. We've met with them a few times and they want to work with us. We've not moved forward. However, working with Kizer will be more expensive than byrd brand prices.
The Kizer knives I've handled (and owned) are beautifully made but could really use some Spyderco design. Anything coming out of this potential partnership would easily become my favorite EDCs. I really, really hope things work out!

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Re: Byrd with high-end steel

Postby cbrstar » Wed Feb 27, 2019 9:10 pm

sal wrote:
Wed Feb 27, 2019 9:00 am
Hi Cbrstar,

Thanx for your references. We've watched them on the past. We have tested their D2 and we've elected not to use it, at least not for Spyderco. I'll present your case for byrd.
Hi Sal,

I understand what you are saying as Spyderco's commitment to quality and excellence is amazing. The guy in the video even chose to use your knives as a test consistent due to the purity of your steel's
We have no problem with using higher end steels on byrd brand. But we have to know that the steel is good (clean) and that the maker can work with it. We are trying this with the Polestar and the Alcyone (CTS-BD1). The maker has his own modern heat treating ovens and he's a knife afi. But sales results have not shown that the market is responding to the higher end steel, we think because of the price difference.
IMHO, I think why people are not responding is due to many consider CTS-BD1 a good steel but not a premium steel, so sadly it's become passe. Ironically if you were making it from CTS-BD1N, there would be many people who would be going crazy for it not because it's better but because it's new to them.
I think the other problem is people especially new knife buyers are not going to understand the difference between CTS-BD1 and 8cr13mov. And I think this is where D2 shines. Despite being a old from the 1940's, and somewhat inexpensive, even new knife buyers perceive D2 as being night and day better then 8cr13mov. D2 almost seems mythical and people feel more value when purchasing it.

I've noticed here in Canada value budget knives like the Ontario RAT are often out of stock in D2 compared to the Aus8 version. I've yet to hear a bad review on D2.

I also think the price point might also be hurting sales a little bit. Since CTS-BD1 is an American made steel does the price increase due to having to import it to China first? This might also be a selling point for D2 if it's more readily available to China at a cheaper cost.

But I know for myself when I bought my Alcyone the price was right at that "hmm I'm not sure mark". The problem was for me for only a extra $10. I could buy the Delica where I got a proven design, Vg-10 which in my eyes was an upgrade to CTS-BD1, and made in Japan (Growing up in the 80's has made me slightly a Japanophile). Go onto any forum and 9/10 people will tell you to get the Delica because that's what they know as some have owned one since the beginning. I bought the Alcyone only after getting the chance to hold it and realizing how amazing it actually is.

I just wanted to thank you Sal for taking the time to read all this. I appreciate it.

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Re: Byrd with high-end steel

Postby sal » Thu Feb 28, 2019 2:05 pm

We'll be discussing the D2 option. Most will be out for the next month for series of shows.

sal

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Re: Byrd with high-end steel

Postby sal » Thu Feb 28, 2019 4:27 pm

Hi Cbr,

Is that a Honda Cbr?

One of the things for many to grasp is that not all "XYZ" is the same. This became very apparent when we introduced serrations to the industry. Most companies followed with their own "style of serrations. We spent a long time developing serrations for performance and so our "teeth" performed very differently than the others on the market. This actually gave serrations a bad rap. The same is true of steel. Different foundry's make the "same chemistry" but they are not all the same.

sal

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Re: Byrd with high-end steel

Postby cbrstar » Fri Mar 01, 2019 12:22 am

sal wrote:
Thu Feb 28, 2019 4:27 pm
Hi Cbr,

Is that a Honda Cbr?

One of the things for many to grasp is that not all "XYZ" is the same. This became very apparent when we introduced serrations to the industry. Most companies followed with their own "style of serrations. We spent a long time developing serrations for performance and so our "teeth" performed very differently than the others on the market. This actually gave serrations a bad rap. The same is true of steel. Different foundry's make the "same chemistry" but they are not all the same.

sal

Hi Sal,

Yes it is I have a couple older Honda CBR's that I enjoy traveling around on in the summer.

Over the years the more I learn about knives the more I realize it's all about the heat treatment. So I understand with complicated modern heat treatments a manufacture like yourself needs both purity and consistency of the steel to put out a great knife. Hopefully you will be able to source some suitable D2 for the byrd line.

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Re: Byrd with high-end steel

Postby sal » Fri Mar 01, 2019 8:36 am

Hi CBR,

My last bike was a Honda VTR 1000. Great scooter. Used to ride fast over the canyons, until I turned 65. Then Doctors and wife objected. Mr. Soichiro Honda is one of my mentors. I've got a picture of him on my office wall.

We've got some Chinese D2. Early testing showed cracks and flaws. We're making up some Mules to test on the CATRA. Our customers would expect no less of us.

sal

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Re: Byrd with high-end steel

Postby araneae » Sat Mar 02, 2019 7:30 am

Sal, i will second the thoughts on the cts-bd1. Many people probably aren`t seeing it as a big upgrade from 8Cr. Bd1 isn't widely known and from my experience using it isn't dramatically better then 8Cr.
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Re: Byrd with high-end steel

Postby Larry_Mott » Sat Mar 02, 2019 9:42 am

Sal: I just missed a mint VTR last fall, although i found a mint 1200 Bandit so pretty happy

Image
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Re: Byrd with high-end steel

Postby ferider » Sat Mar 02, 2019 10:15 am

Nice and shiny, Larry. Just a little on the small side if you ask me :)

Image

Back on subject:
carrot wrote:
Wed Feb 27, 2019 10:05 am
sal wrote:
Wed Feb 27, 2019 9:00 am
Kizer has their own heat treating facility. We've met with them a few times and they want to work with us. We've not moved forward. However, working with Kizer will be more expensive than byrd brand prices.
The Kizer knives I've handled (and owned) are beautifully made but could really use some Spyderco design. Anything coming out of this potential partnership would easily become my favorite EDCs. I really, really hope things work out!
I second that !

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Re: Byrd with high-end steel

Postby willc » Sun Mar 03, 2019 2:08 pm

I like to carry my Cara Cara and Meadowlark hawkbill at work and I find the steel to be very good for the price.

Using high end steel on the Byrd line doesn’t make much sense to me.
I would be happy with any steel as long as it is treated well.


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