Hard truths and observations

Discuss Spyderco's products and history.
Doeswhateveraspidercan
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Re: Hard truths and observations

Postby Doeswhateveraspidercan » Wed Jan 09, 2019 2:18 pm

I have owned and own knives and multi tools from several different companies like Chris Reeve, Case, Victoronix, Buck, Leatherman Ka-Bar Esee & TRC just to name a few but by and large Spyderco is simply the best. I do not buy based on which country they come from if that was what you were driving at.

I could describe the merits of Lithuania based TRC bush craft knives and how wonderfully the Elmax in them compares to lets say to the USA First edge companies blades but it seems out of place here does it not? So yeah not into the whole your a nationalist argument. Everyone with any common sense already knows the Multi National Corporations run everything right down to who is in the Congress, so Globalism is already a fact long in place if one really wants to go there.

Bottom lining it I buy and collect according to taste not country. Thank you very much.

Also well aware Spyderco has knives produced in other countries to include China. When it comes to countries China is synonymous with cheap and low quality. Does that mean Chinese manufacturers can not manufacture to higher specs? No not at all. China is the king of cheap goods so to meet price points companies have them manufacture certain items.

Are Spyderco Chinese made knives cheap? I doubt it, but can not say for certain as the models coming from China are not really my taste.

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Evil D
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Re: Hard truths and observations

Postby Evil D » Wed Jan 09, 2019 2:19 pm

Vivi wrote:
Wed Jan 09, 2019 2:10 pm
https://www.bladehq.com/item--Kershaw-L ... ack--75307

USA made knife with M390 blade steel for under $80.

Sal states the dollar to yuan rate is 6 to 1.

How many M390 knives coming out of China sell for $13?

How about we quadruple that price to account for Ti VS Aluminum?

Ok, so how many Ti/M390 knives sell for $52, regardless of where they are made?

Do they have good warranties?

Do they actually use M390? Did you do any testing do determine it's not actually 9Cr "rebranded" as the steel of the day? How many people buying these Ti flippers use them enough to know?

Folks are being ripped off, plain as day. You guys are paying 2-4x what a product could be sold for, buying products that might not be what they claim to be, then complaining that knives made in the USA using legit steels don't have comparable prices?
There are very few brands I trust that also manufacture in China, and this is exactly why. With how common counterfeiting is I just don't trust that I'm getting what I paid for.
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Re: Hard truths and observations

Postby Mom3ntuM » Wed Jan 09, 2019 2:20 pm

If your sallary is tips and commission based you probably earn a lot more than 8$ per hour, so I wouldn't call that living on 8$ per hour,, and a 15 year old living with his parentes would live without pay at all.
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Re: Hard truths and observations

Postby rgrad80 » Wed Jan 09, 2019 2:22 pm

Vivi wrote:
Wed Jan 09, 2019 2:10 pm
https://www.bladehq.com/item--Kershaw-L ... ack--75307

USA made knife with M390 blade steel for under $80.

Sal states the dollar to yuan rate is 6 to 1.

How many M390 knives coming out of China sell for $13?

How about we quadruple that price to account for Ti VS Aluminum?

Ok, so how many Ti/M390 knives sell for $52, regardless of where they are made?

Do they have good warranties?

Do they actually use M390? Did you do any testing do determine it's not actually 9Cr "rebranded" as the steel of the day? How many people buying these Ti flippers use them enough to know?

Folks are being ripped off, plain as day. You guys are paying 2-4x what a product could be sold for, buying products that might not be what they claim to be, then complaining that knives made in the USA using legit steels don't have comparable prices?
The Kershaw link is a great beater knife for sure. The aluminum handles are okay, but the M390 sharpens up great.
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Re: Hard truths and observations

Postby vivi » Wed Jan 09, 2019 2:26 pm

I'll never understand the prestige Titanium enjoys.

It isn't very expensive. Check prices yourself - https://store.tmstitanium.com

That's the first retailer I found for Ti stock, I'm sure you could do better if you shopped around.

Titanium was discovered waaaay back in the 1700's, it isn't the space age high tec stuff it is often made out to be. Humans have been working it for well over a century. USSR were using it for military applications right around the end of WW2.

It sure gets a lot of hype in the knife world though.
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Doeswhateveraspidercan
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Re: Hard truths and observations

Postby Doeswhateveraspidercan » Wed Jan 09, 2019 2:33 pm

Vivi wrote:
Wed Jan 09, 2019 2:26 pm
I'll never understand the prestige Titanium enjoys.

It isn't very expensive. Check prices yourself - https://store.tmstitanium.com

That's the first retailer I found for Ti stock, I'm sure you could do better if you shopped around.

Titanium was discovered waaaay back in the 1700's, it isn't the space age high tec stuff it is often made out to be. Humans have been working it for well over a century. USSR were using it for military applications right around the end of WW2.

It sure gets a lot of hype in the knife world though.
Good point. Maybe it has something to do with working with it? It does feel good in the hand though.

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Re: Hard truths and observations

Postby 500Nitro » Wed Jan 09, 2019 2:39 pm

Well said ViVi

I have a Counterfit Spyderco, a big serrated Hawkbill, “VG-10” it says lol
It was in the bottom of my cupboard until a few weeks ago, unused.

I misplaced my Endura 1 SE, needed to cut rope on containers so hauled out the counter fit.

The blade is blunter after 2 weeks cutting a few ropes than I thought it would be. The last 1cm that is Plain Edge is blunt as hell. I don’t know what the steel is but I very much doubt it’s a quality steel.

So all these cheap Chinese, history shows they will not be what they say they are.
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Re: Hard truths and observations

Postby ChrisinHove » Wed Jan 09, 2019 2:43 pm

Titanium? High strength to wieght ratio and spectacular corrosion resistance, but most important of all is it’s resistance to whinging about peel-ply g10.

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Re: Hard truths and observations

Postby 500Nitro » Wed Jan 09, 2019 2:46 pm

Vivi wrote:
Wed Jan 09, 2019 2:26 pm
I'll never understand the prestige Titanium enjoys.

Because it’s used in the aircraft / space industry.
SR-71 and probably every jet engine.

My father is a metallurgist, worked for IMI in UK in the late 50’s/early 60’s and was on the team that won an award for working out some process that allowed mass production of titanium.
Still got 2 melts st home from one of the foundry pours.
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Re: Hard truths and observations

Postby SF Native » Wed Jan 09, 2019 2:54 pm

500Nitro wrote:
Wed Jan 09, 2019 2:46 pm
Vivi wrote:
Wed Jan 09, 2019 2:26 pm
I'll never understand the prestige Titanium enjoys.

Because it’s used in the aircraft / space industry.
SR-71 and probably every jet engine.

My father is a metallurgist, worked for IMI in UK in the late 50’s/early 60’s and was on the team that won an award for working out some process that allowed mass production of titanium.
Still got 2 melts st home from one of the foundry pours.
Recently titanium it available. Back in the Cold War Years, almost all of the titanium was bought up for military purposes. The ussr even went so far as to develop scandium-aluminum allows to make up the shortage.

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sal
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Re: Hard truths and observations

Postby sal » Wed Jan 09, 2019 2:55 pm

I think the recent innovation that brought it to fame was alloys like 6Al4v. It also works in the body and it's stronger than gold or silver for body parts.

sal

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Re: Hard truths and observations

Postby The Deacon » Wed Jan 09, 2019 3:05 pm

Vivi wrote:
Wed Jan 09, 2019 2:26 pm
I'll never understand the prestige Titanium enjoys.

It isn't very expensive. Check prices yourself - https://store.tmstitanium.com

That's the first retailer I found for Ti stock, I'm sure you could do better if you shopped around.

Titanium was discovered waaaay back in the 1700's, it isn't the space age high tec stuff it is often made out to be. Humans have been working it for well over a century. USSR were using it for military applications right around the end of WW2.

It sure gets a lot of hype in the knife world though.

That company really doesn't offer anything suitable for building a framelock. The thickest stock they offer is only .093", so only about 3/32". And they offer very little in 6-4 alloy, which I'm pretty sure is the alloy normally used by knifemakers.

As for the "why", like most things probably a combination of factors. Titanium is lighter than steel and tougher than aluminum. It does not corrode and can be anodized to a number of attractive colors. And, whether you agree or not, perception always trumps reality and many believe titanium to be an "exotic" material.
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Re: Hard truths and observations

Postby Wartstein » Wed Jan 09, 2019 5:59 pm

For me it comes down to three considerations: "Is it worth it" and if the answer is "yes": "Can I afford it" and "do I want to afford it (now or later)"

Concerning the first one: I do not own a Shaman (yet...), but handled one, and I have to say: For me personally it is totally worth every cent, even in Europe (where in 2018 it did cost at least USD 230, did not check the 2019 prices); it´s like you can feel all the history of Spyderco and experience in designing great knifes, the ergos are mindblowing, you just don´t want to put that thing down again, and I guess that will make every second you use the Shaman enjoyable. For me that is worth the money, no doubt.
Besides you always have to take in account: What makes the Shaman pricey is also the reason that you would be able to sell it someday for a good price, should you really come to not liking it that much anymore (which I can´t imagine though). That´s a difference compared to expenses on other hobbies.
I for example am an enthusiastic mountaineer, rockclimber and trailrunner , and waste between two and three pairs of trailrunning shoes per summerseason, one pair will cost around 100 USD; that money is gone, purchasing the Shaman on the other hand would either give me a knife I´ll enjoy for many years or I´d get some of my money back by selling it someday.

If I CAN afford it and / or if I WANT to afford it at the moment are different stories. Could be that the answer to both is "no", but I´d still think the price for the Shaman is totally reasonable, just I can´t or do not want to lay the money down right now.
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Re: Hard truths and observations

Postby knolan » Wed Jan 09, 2019 6:37 pm

Vivi wrote:
Wed Jan 09, 2019 2:26 pm
I'll never understand the prestige Titanium enjoys.

It isn't very expensive. Check prices yourself - https://store.tmstitanium.com

That's the first retailer I found for Ti stock, I'm sure you could do better if you shopped around.

Titanium was discovered waaaay back in the 1700's, it isn't the space age high tec stuff it is often made out to be. Humans have been working it for well over a century. USSR were using it for military applications right around the end of WW2.

It sure gets a lot of hype in the knife world though.
I too wondered the same thing about 30yrs. ago when I was USFC amateur bike racer just getting my first bike built w/a Ti frame. Rewarded with the most supple ride I'd ever experienced in a cutting edge light titanium bike, I started reading about Ti's properties and history, and seem to remember that it was one of the most abundant elements on earth, however, until that time (1989 or so) it was so hard to machine due to Ti's tinsel strength (it would literally stretch away from the tool trying to cut it), and therefore too cost prohibitive for many consumer applications to use.

Fast forward 30yrs however, and with the emergence of lower cost CNC machines and better techniques for machining, we now are inundated with Ti do-dads everywhere you look. I like Ti knife scales a lot, but have always felt this material only really shines in app's where it can withstand tremendous loads without breaking.

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Re: Hard truths and observations

Postby Doeswhateveraspidercan » Wed Jan 09, 2019 6:44 pm

One of my favorites is the Spyderco Military In Cf and TI. With S90V steel.

I would have been very happy if both slabs were TI with S90V it makes a wonderful design feel very sturdy in hand much more like a fixed blade instead of a folder.

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Re: Hard truths and observations

Postby Pelagic » Wed Jan 09, 2019 7:00 pm

I'm sick of these threads just as much as anyone, but I'm also sick of the excuses for Spyderco's prices.

HERE'S THE DEAL. Spyderco charges what people are willing to pay. It's a (relatively) FREE MARKET. The prices are BS, but at the end of the day you get a good product. If you don't like it, buy less spyderco knives. That's what I'm doing honestly. I will continue to love spyderco, but I'll continue to buy from other companies because my wallet makes the decisions, not my heart. I'm not an important customer to spyderco anyway as I'm not a collector. A knife USER will not always be Spyderco's dream customer. But seriously, complaining will only get you so far.
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Doeswhateveraspidercan
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Re: Hard truths and observations

Postby Doeswhateveraspidercan » Wed Jan 09, 2019 7:02 pm

Wartstein wrote:
Wed Jan 09, 2019 5:59 pm
For me it comes down to three considerations: "Is it worth it" and if the answer is "yes": "Can I afford it" and "do I want to afford it (now or later)"

Concerning the first one: I do not own a Shaman (yet...), but handled one, and I have to say: For me personally it is totally worth every cent, even in Europe (where in 2018 it did cost at least USD 230, did not check the 2019 prices); it´s like you can feel all the history of Spyderco and experience in designing great knifes, the ergos are mindblowing, you just don´t want to put that thing down again, and I guess that will make every second you use the Shaman enjoyable. For me that is worth the money, no doubt.
Besides you always have to take in account: What makes the Shaman pricey is also the reason that you would be able to sell it someday for a good price, should you really come to not liking it that much anymore (which I can´t imagine though). That´s a difference compared to expenses on other hobbies.
I for example am an enthusiastic mountaineer, rockclimber and trailrunner , and waste between two and three pairs of trailrunning shoes per summerseason, one pair will cost around 100 USD; that money is gone, purchasing the Shaman on the other hand would either give me a knife I´ll enjoy for many years or I´d get some of my money back by selling it someday.

If I CAN afford it and / or if I WANT to afford it at the moment are different stories. Could be that the answer to both is "no", but I´d still think the price for the Shaman is totally reasonable, just I can´t or do not want to lay the money down right now.
Well said and I agree 100%

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Re: Hard truths and observations

Postby elduderino04 » Wed Jan 09, 2019 7:08 pm

One thing to add to Vivi's and others' observations is heat treat. With these value-focused companies (which are often but not exclusively Chinese) not only do you not know for sure what steel you're getting, you also have no idea whether the steel is properly heat treated, which is perhaps even more important than the actual steel that's used. Of course, industry wide no one knows whether their knives have been properly heat treated. Aside from expensive hardness testing or extensive use, there is no way to check the quality of a steel's heat treat. We have to trust that the manufacturer did everything properly, in the same way that you have to trust that the company will be around in the future to honor any warranty (if there even is one). This trust is why there's a value to buying from legitimate, established brands, regardless of the company of origin. A value that is not accounted for in the handle material and steel used in making the knife.

And don't get me wrong, I have nothing against Chinese knives specifically (aside from the fact that China does not enforce any requirements that the steel type cannot be mislabeled, in the same way that the US, Canada, the EU, and other countries do). I own several knives from We, Kizer, and Rike. They seem to be good knives. I have no reason to believe that the materials have been misrepresented, nor that they have been improperly heat treated. However, I know that they aren't pushing the boundaries of what the steel is capable of through their heat treat, certainly not in the same way that we know Spyderco and Buck do with their heat treatments. I also know that these brands (and others that continually are pushing for the lowest price possible, relying on the average consumer's ignorance) are not changing the heat treat based upon the intended use of the knife (certain applications need softer, tougher treatments while others require the opposite). This is what gets so easily lost by conflating knives with their materials. Just because I can get all the same ingredients as a Michelin chef, even if I follow a recipe for making the dish my end result likely won't be the same.

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Re: Hard truths and observations

Postby ZrowsN1s » Wed Jan 09, 2019 7:18 pm

I would also point out that S30V and G-10 from company A, may not be of the same quality as S30V and G-10 from company B. Quality of the heat treat and proprietary heat treats are a big factor. Quality of the grind, and blade geometry. Quality of the materials is another. Craftsmanship of manufacturing another. Quality of design another.

Maybe it's my taste in knives or my dislike of liner locks, but just now taking at look at BHQ, with the exception of some Al Mar designs and a few Emersons, not much in the $200 range calls my name besides Spyderco.
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Jazz
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Re: Hard truths and observations

Postby Jazz » Wed Jan 09, 2019 7:32 pm

Here’s something. The Canadian place I order from raised their prices way up when the CBSA thing went down, and they’ve been getting knives in again, but the prices are still where they raised them to. Not to cool. Some really are ridiculous.
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