Is this claim about an "ideallic world" true or false?

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Is this claim about an "ideallic world" true or false?

Postby SpyderEdgeForever » Sat Dec 15, 2018 7:38 pm

A man I was having a discussion with about the fast pace of modern life and all of the sad corruption and pollution and other problems told me that as he sees it, in an "ideal world" where there was no poverty and pollution and where there was abundance for all, he claims there would be no super/mega cities and everyone, world wide, regardless of their particular culture, would live in small to medium-sized villages/towns, all food would be grown and produced locally with organic ingredients, no preservatives or toxic chemicals, and everyone would be friends and know each other or be able to know each other, and there would be no need for laws against knives and firearms because people would use these as tools and never to harm other people.

What do you all make of this idea of an ideal world situation that this person told me is what he believes life would be like?

He said there would be no "McDonalds and Wonder Bread" that all of the food would be like what you find in rural European villages and other places, no pre packaged or mass produced anything. I asked him "What about knives and tools?" He said all knives and all tools would be hand made of such high quality that even the greatest quality production knife, hammer, or saw or axe would never compete with them, and, everyone would be able to afford these hand-made and custom-made knives and tools.

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Re: Is this claim about an "ideallic world" true or false?

Postby Wanimator » Sat Dec 15, 2018 7:52 pm

That's why it's called ideal.

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Re: Is this claim about an "ideallic world" true or false?

Postby TazKristi » Sat Dec 15, 2018 9:12 pm

;) Let's move this over to Off-Topic.
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Re: Is this claim about an "ideallic world" true or false?

Postby The Mastiff » Sat Dec 15, 2018 11:36 pm

Other peoples ideal world might be nothing like that. Who gets to choose what the ideal setup is? I know people whose idea of life is Manhattan with nightlife that goes until dawn in a world where a phone call to the local drug dealer has whatever they want delivered like a pizza right to the apartment. Not for me but I don't like the idea of telling people how to live their lives. Some people like Wonder bread too.

Some of the people you talk to don't seem real grounded in this world. Where do you find them? :)

Joe

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Re: Is this claim about an "ideallic world" true or false?

Postby awa54 » Sun Dec 16, 2018 12:34 am

Yeah, one person's "Ideal" is definitely not everyone's Ideal...

I think that Utopian visions have pretty much been proved to be wishful thinking... maybe in a small group they could work on a limited basis, but the whole of Humanity will never be on board with just one "way" and the world would be pretty boring if we were all the same.
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still more knives than sharpening stones...

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Re: Is this claim about an "ideallic world" true or false?

Postby Doc Dan » Sun Dec 16, 2018 4:03 am

There is no such thing as such a place this side of heaven. We are incapable of achieving it. It is okay to dream, but you notice that everyone has a different view of what the ideal world would be, and in that is the basis for conflict. Therefore, no ideal world is possible. Still, we need to try to achieve a better world in spite of the problems.
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Re: Is this claim about an "ideallic world" true or false?

Postby SpyderEdgeForever » Sun Dec 16, 2018 6:27 pm

TazKristi wrote:
Sat Dec 15, 2018 9:12 pm
;) Let's move this over to Off-Topic.
Thank you for moving it, Kristi. I must have mistakenly posted it in the main forum.

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Re: Is this claim about an "ideallic world" true or false?

Postby SpyderEdgeForever » Sun Dec 16, 2018 6:29 pm

The Mastiff wrote:
Sat Dec 15, 2018 11:36 pm
Other peoples ideal world might be nothing like that. Who gets to choose what the ideal setup is? I know people whose idea of life is Manhattan with nightlife that goes until dawn in a world where a phone call to the local drug dealer has whatever they want delivered like a pizza right to the apartment. Not for me but I don't like the idea of telling people how to live their lives. Some people like Wonder bread too.

Some of the people you talk to don't seem real grounded in this world. Where do you find them? :)

Joe
Most of them on the internet, others in everyday life. That is a good point, just like the old saying "One man's trash is another man's treasure."

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Re: Is this claim about an "ideallic world" true or false?

Postby James Y » Mon Dec 17, 2018 1:18 am

Back in the 1960s, many in the hippie movement thought they were creating Utopias in their communes. For the most part, it didn't work out too well for them.

Also, many people seeking ideal Utopias end up falling prey to cults. Jim Jones and Jonestown is only one example of MANY. Like Charles Manson, Jim Jones was a psychopath, only worse. With cult leaders like that, there were never any positive intentions, but they preyed upon vulnerable young, idealistic people searching for some way of belonging.

I knew a woman who once belonged to the Rajneesh cult and lived in their Oregon compound from the early to mid-1980s. She had been a hippie in the '60s, and had always moved from place to place, seeking an ideal place to belong. Ostensibly, the Rajneeshee were about 'spiritual enlightenment' and clean living. In truth, it became a militarized cult that participated in attempted assassinations and murders, including of some of its own members (of which my acquaintance was a survivor).

Even utopian communities that do start out with good intentions often become infected by mankind's evil/greed/corruption. I'm not trying to be a downer, but unfortunately, that usually seems to be the nature of the people who have power and authority over others.

And as others have mentioned, who gets to decide what an ideal world is, anyway? People all have different opinions, personalities, cultures, etc. When someone tries to decide their way or the highway, conflict usually results.

There is a Findhorn Foundation in Scotland that I've heard of in passing. Some say what they are doing is incredible work; others say it's a cult. I have no opinion either way. Just thought I'd mention it if you're interested in the subject of eco-type communities.

Jim

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Re: Is this claim about an "ideallic world" true or false?

Postby SpyderEdgeForever » Mon Dec 17, 2018 5:29 pm

James, very good points. Here is the question to you and others on here, about this: Can there be some sort of compromise, where we know it is not a utopia but, where at least every human being on Earth can somehow have a state of existence that we would call "upper middle class", where they have all of the quality food, clothes, medical care, homes/housing, hobbies and vacation time they want, and where they grow up not having to ever be concerned or worry that they will go without, but, at the same time, without there being a corrupt communistic type situation like we have seen happen, or, is this not a reality?

I guess what I am getting at is this: Is it possible for the human race, short of Divine intervention, to make a "Star Trek Federation" type of world (minus any of the aliens), where we have a benign and friendly and caring one world government that does not infringe on our Constitutional and basic rights and freedoms at all, (ie it does not become some global monster system like we read of in the book "1984"), and where people have all of their needs and desires met, within understandable limits, and where there is no longer any war between human beings, and where crime has been dropped so low as to be almost nil, or are you saying that this is not possible as long as human beings have the basic nature and way about us that we presently do?

One of the most profound and straight-forward realistic statements that you made which I believe the entire human race should heed and understand is this, your quote:

"Even utopian communities that do start out with good intentions often become infected by mankind's evil/greed/corruption. I'm not trying to be a downer, but unfortunately, that usually seems to be the nature of the people who have power and authority over others. "

That so so sadly true.

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Re: Is this claim about an "ideallic world" true or false?

Postby Bodog » Mon Dec 17, 2018 8:28 pm

SpyderEdgeForever wrote:
Mon Dec 17, 2018 5:29 pm
James, very good points. Here is the question to you and others on here, about this: Can there be some sort of compromise, where we know it is not a utopia but, where at least every human being on Earth can somehow have a state of existence that we would call "upper middle class", where they have all of the quality food, clothes, medical care, homes/housing, hobbies and vacation time they want, and where they grow up not having to ever be concerned or worry that they will go without, but, at the same time, without there being a corrupt communistic type situation like we have seen happen, or, is this not a reality?

I guess what I am getting at is this: Is it possible for the human race, short of Divine intervention, to make a "Star Trek Federation" type of world (minus any of the aliens), where we have a benign and friendly and caring one world government that does not infringe on our Constitutional and basic rights and freedoms at all, (ie it does not become some global monster system like we read of in the book "1984"), and where people have all of their needs and desires met, within understandable limits, and where there is no longer any war between human beings, and where crime has been dropped so low as to be almost nil, or are you saying that this is not possible as long as human beings have the basic nature and way about us that we presently do?

One of the most profound and straight-forward realistic statements that you made which I believe the entire human race should heed and understand is this, your quote:

"Even utopian communities that do start out with good intentions often become infected by mankind's evil/greed/corruption. I'm not trying to be a downer, but unfortunately, that usually seems to be the nature of the people who have power and authority over others. "

That so so sadly true.

The answer is no. This reality isn't star trek fiction. Some people must work and some people will not. Who benefits from either is a matter of morality, luck, and sympathy but nonetheless, truth is truth.

There is nothing to gain from pondering a utopia. We are not here to live in one. We are here to live as we live. Wondering about things never meant to happen is more detrimental to evolution than denying evolution can and will happen.
They who dance are thought mad by those who do not hear the music.

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Re: Is this claim about an "ideallic world" true or false?

Postby JD Spydo » Tue Dec 18, 2018 12:40 am

The Mastiff wrote:
Sat Dec 15, 2018 11:36 pm
Other peoples ideal world might be nothing like that. Who gets to choose what the ideal setup is? I know people whose idea of life is Manhattan with nightlife that goes until dawn in a world where a phone call to the local drug dealer has whatever they want delivered like a pizza right to the apartment. Not for me but I don't like the idea of telling people how to live their lives. Some people like Wonder bread too.

Some of the people you talk to don't seem real grounded in this world. Where do you find them? :)
Brother Mastiff makes some great points. Because an old Pastor I used to have many years ago was a guy I had an ocean of respect for. He told me a long time ago that many people deliberately choose the "Low Road" instead of the "High Road". He had an old saying that "Water Seeks It's Own Level" and how true that is. For about 5 years I worked for a Lutheran Ministry which helped homeless people, street people, prostitutes and every variety of rogue people imaginable. One of our lady's ministers did get a few girls off the streets that underwent a real successful rehab. And the ministry did have a few success stories but overall most of these people just took advantage of the kindness of the ministers that worked their hearts out to help a lot of these people with very nominal results for all the hard work they put in :(

As sad as it is there are a big percentage of people who choose the "Low Road" when there are other viable options available to them :( Many times the food we gave people to help them got sold or traded for cigarettes, alcohol, drugs or to buy minutes on a cell phone they couldn't afford. Sad to say there is just a growing segment of our society ( world wide unfortunately :( ) who can't or just will not get their lives in order. When people prefer Cigarettes and cell phones over food you just know that there is something extremely wrong with the mindsets and priorities of many of these people. Cell phones for instance have become a literal god to so many people. And I'm not at all against luxuries if you can afford them>> but to put luxuries over food, shelter and clothing makes no sense to me at all. Brother SEF before a world like you described could ever become a reality the mindsets and priorities of people would have to drastically change and I just don't see it happening unfortunately. Probably another "Great Depression" might be the only thing that would wake people up :(

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Re: Is this claim about an "ideallic world" true or false?

Postby shunsui » Wed Dec 19, 2018 5:08 am

The optimist thinks this is the best of all possible worlds. The pessimist fears it is true.
-J. Robert Oppenheimer

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Re: Is this claim about an "ideallic world" true or false?

Postby James Y » Wed Dec 19, 2018 11:20 am

SpyderEdgeForever wrote:
Mon Dec 17, 2018 5:29 pm
James, very good points. Here is the question to you and others on here, about this: Can there be some sort of compromise, where we know it is not a utopia but, where at least every human being on Earth can somehow have a state of existence that we would call "upper middle class", where they have all of the quality food, clothes, medical care, homes/housing, hobbies and vacation time they want, and where they grow up not having to ever be concerned or worry that they will go without, but, at the same time, without there being a corrupt communistic type situation like we have seen happen, or, is this not a reality?

I guess what I am getting at is this: Is it possible for the human race, short of Divine intervention, to make a "Star Trek Federation" type of world (minus any of the aliens), where we have a benign and friendly and caring one world government that does not infringe on our Constitutional and basic rights and freedoms at all, (ie it does not become some global monster system like we read of in the book "1984"), and where people have all of their needs and desires met, within understandable limits, and where there is no longer any war between human beings, and where crime has been dropped so low as to be almost nil, or are you saying that this is not possible as long as human beings have the basic nature and way about us that we presently do?

One of the most profound and straight-forward realistic statements that you made which I believe the entire human race should heed and understand is this, your quote:

"Even utopian communities that do start out with good intentions often become infected by mankind's evil/greed/corruption. I'm not trying to be a downer, but unfortunately, that usually seems to be the nature of the people who have power and authority over others. "

That so so sadly true.
SpyderEdgeForever:

No, I do not believe that can happen. Not to mention the absolute horror of a one-world government. Imagine the power-mad people in charge of that? The saying goes: "Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely." Sadly, it's why I cannot trust any politicians, whether they claim to be 'liberal', 'conservative', or 'independent'. Again, it's all about 'playing the game' and trying to appear as if they're working for the people, while doing the least amount possible and getting obscene amounts of money, power and influence for it (as long as they play the game). They're all just basically fingers on the same hand, trying to APPEAR different from each other to their constituents. They'll say whatever they think or know their constituents want to hear to maintain their positions. As bad as it is now, a one-world government would make everyone wish it never happened.

Human beings are incapable of complete, idyllic peace on earth. I also strongly believe that this earth was not intended to be a paradise. Everybody is free to agree or disagree with me, but IMO earth is like a school, and we were born into this life to learn, grow and strive for better at the soul level. How can you evolve and strive for better if everything is 'perfect'? What would happen is spiritual atrophy, boredom and complacency. How can you understand and appreciate the light without experiencing the dark? And this is even if a perfect utopia were possible (it's not).

The best that anyone can do is strive to make our own lives, and hopefully the lives of those around us, as nice as we can, in our own ways. knowing that while perfection on earth is unattainable, we can still strive for the best possible outcomes in our own lives.

Jim


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