Cost Cutting on Sprderco's Higher End Models, Why?

[Archimedes]

What you are saying is on the 0562 the lockbar stabilizer is cosmetic? Why?

Because the Hinderer lock bar stabilizer is an over travel stop. On the 0562 the hardened lock bar face also serves as an over travel stop, and it stops lock bar travel before the Hinderer stabilizer disk takes effect. Hence, the stabilizer disk becomes cosmetic.

I would strongly disagree. That price point is average these days. I spend over a $100 dollars every time I fill up my Ford F150.

I've edited the title since you're clearly incapable of comprehending my meaning within the context of the knives that Spyderco offers. What it cost you to fill up your truck has absolutely no relevance to what Spyderco models cost when compared to other Spyderco models. Perhaps go take (or retake) a college philosophy, debate, or argumentative writing class so you can brush up on your understanding.

What it costs to fill my truck has relevance to me.

What it cost to you to fill your truck may be of concern to you, but it has no relevance in determining what a high end Spyderco is or isn't. A high end or low end Spyderco is determined by its cost relative to other Spydercos. A high end or low end mass produced pocket knife is determined by it's price relative to other mass produced pocket knives. Comparing Spyderco knives to other mass produced knives with which they compete is relevant. Comparing Spyderco to low volume mid techs or to even lower volume custom knives is at best minimally relevant.

See, I am a simple guy and what it costs to live is relative to what things cost to buy for me. If my truck takes a 100 dollars in gas then a 100 dollar knife is not that much money relative to cost the of living. So yeah. There is that. I think a 175 dollar knife is budget friendly. Just my opinion.

[zhyla]

I’m with Sal on this. I’d much rather have knives that are affordable for ordinary people. I like to be able to recommend Spyderco knives to non-knife enthusiasts. When they say “cool knife, how much if I want one like?” and the answer is over $100, there’s just no point.

I also think Uuarguy’s analysis of those models is ignoring something. Knives get slammed in reviews if the price is too high. At $225 you’re getting compared to knives that are way fancier. What China can put out for $200 these days is quite competitive.

I think Spyderco is playing the pricing game pretty well. Not always — there’s a Positron in my pocket that I bought for $100 on clearance instead of $180 MAP. It just wasn’t competitive at $180. I assume that was an expensive misjudgement for their business.

[Woodpuppy]

From my perspective, I don’t like extra “bling”. My former favorite maker went too goofy with their designs and I lost interest. Performance first, simplicity of design, and clean lines. I think Spyderco does this well overall. They also offer a variety, for those who want more show.

[ugaarguy]

I’m with Sal on this. I’d much rather have knives that are affordable for ordinary people. I like to be able to recommend Spyderco knives to non-knife enthusiasts. When they say “cool knife, how much if I want one like?” and the answer is over $100, there’s just no point.

Which is exactly my point. Those people aren't going to buy a Brouwer even at $175. Those are the people who buy Delicas and Enduras, and might splurge up $95 for a Native 5 LW to get a US made knife.

I also think Uuarguy’s analysis of those models is ignoring something. Knives get slammed in reviews if the price is too high. At $225 you’re getting compared to knives that are way fancier. What China can put out for $200 these days is quite competitive.

I've seen what the Chinese can do at $200 and it's impressive. The $175 price on the Brouwer is close enough to $200 that I have no doubt reviewers will still compare it to what you can get for just $25 more in whichever Chinese made knife. I'm already comparing the Brouwer to a $25 more expensive Spyderco from the same factory. $175 is so close to $200 that I think Spyderco should have just bumped the price up a bit rather than cut corners.

I think Spyderco is playing the pricing game pretty well. Not always — there’s a Positron in my pocket that I bought for $100 on clearance instead of $180 MAP. It just wasn’t competitive at $180. I assume that was an expensive misjudgement for their business.

I agree. I think the Brouwer is just in a weird spot. $25 more gets the all Ti Sage 2. $25 less gets the CF laminate compression lock Sage 5. $25 is 14% of the price of the Brouwer, so we aren't talking huge percentage price increments.

From my perspective, I don’t like extra “bling”. My former favorite maker went too goofy with their designs and I lost interest. Performance first, simplicity of design, and clean lines. I think Spyderco does this well overall. They also offer a variety, for those who want more show.

I bought the CF version of the ZT 0562 because I wanted the higher end steel, and I liked the look of the CF scale. I've discovered that satin finished CF offers good grip, even when wet, and it doesn't eat pocket linings like G10 sometimes does. Solid CF offers a great mix of strength and low weight. Satin finished CF is also very abrasion resistant, so scales made from it stay looking nicer for longer. Once I used a knife with it, I realized why the Aerospace and auto racing industries love the material. I could list almost all of the same attributes in reference to titanium, and add in corrosion resistance when compared to most steels. Now, the red twill CF laminate on the Domino - yeah I bought that for knife the red and black bling on an otherwise completely functional knife.

[vivi]

Because the Hinderer lock bar stabilizer is an over travel stop. On the 0562 the hardened lock bar face also serves as an over travel stop, and it stops lock bar travel before the Hinderer stabilizer disk takes effect. Hence, the stabilizer disk becomes cosmetic.

I've edited the title since you're clearly incapable of comprehending my meaning within the context of the knives that Spyderco offers. What it cost you to fill up your truck has absolutely no relevance to what Spyderco models cost when compared to other Spyderco models. Perhaps go take (or retake) a college philosophy, debate, or argumentative writing class so you can brush up on your understanding.

What it costs to fill my truck has relevance to me.

What it cost to you to fill your truck may be of concern to you, but it has no relevance in determining what a high end Spyderco is or isn't. A high end or low end Spyderco is determined by its cost relative to other Spydercos. A high end or low end mass produced pocket knife is determined by it's price relative to other mass produced pocket knives. Comparing Spyderco knives to other mass produced knives with which they compete is relevant. Comparing Spyderco to low volume mid techs or to even lower volume custom knives is at best minimally relevant.

See, I am a simple guy and what it costs to live is relative to what things cost to buy for me. If my truck takes a 100 dollars in gas then a 100 dollar knife is not that much money relative to cost the of living. So yeah. There is that. I think a 175 dollar knife is budget friendly. Just my opinion.

If I drive a car that costs $25 to fill up, that means using your ratio any knife over $43.75 would be outside of budget range. Food for thought?

[araneae]

See, I am a simple guy and what it costs to live is relative to what things cost to buy for me. If my truck takes a 100 dollars in gas then a 100 dollar knife is not that much money relative to cost the of living. So yeah. There is that. I think a 175 dollar knife is budget friendly. Just my opinion.

You are a fortunate man.

ugaarguy, your tone is a bit harsh, insinuating slights against members is generally a bad way to advance a constructive conversation. Shiny footprints and all.

[zhyla]

I agree. I think the Brouwer is just in a weird spot. $25 more gets the all Ti Sage 2. $25 less gets the CF laminate compression lock Sage 5. $25 is 14% of the price of the Brouwer, so we aren't talking huge percentage price increments.

Gotcha. One thing to keep in mind is every price point is high or low to somebody. Apparently if I owned a pickup truck a $175 knife would be a beater. For me having nice knives and lots of them is a luxury. I can afford a lot more, but I guess they’re just not worth it to me. When knives start approaching firearm pricing I just find other things to be interested in.

[TomAiello]

What does BM call their "upgraded" versions? "Black Label" or something? Could Spyderco do "high end" versions of their knives in a similar fashion?

[Bloke]

... their "upgraded" versions?

[TomAiello]

Apparently it's "Gold Line". Reading through the materials though, it looks like it's basically sprint run/exclusive kind of stuff--upgraded handle materials and steel--rather than upgrades to smaller components like the OP was asking for.

[ugaarguy]

What does BM call their "upgraded" versions? "Black Label" or something? Could Spyderco do "high end" versions of their knives in a similar fashion?

I'd be in for a Sage 2 (or any Spyderco RIL, really) with solid red and black twill CF front scale, and a fancy blade steel like Vanax or S110V. I've said it before, but I think Spyderco should do more knives with red and black CF scales since those are the company colors.

[The Mastiff]

I'd rather have paid the extra $30 -$40 to get a solid CF scale

I'm completely different than you here. I'd prefer they try to save every penny for me they can. Solid CF won't make it cut any better. I'd go so far as to say it won't make it have a longer lifespan either. It won't make it feel better in my hand. How it cuts and how it feels are the things that are important to me and the only things I would consider extra costs for. I've been a customer since 1992 and purchased somewhere between 3 to 5 hundred so far so they are doing something I like.

Joe

[ugaarguy]

I'd rather have paid the extra $30 -$40 to get a solid CF scale

I'm completely different than you here. I'd prefer they try to save every penny for me they can. Solid CF won't make it cut any better. I'd go so far as to say it won't make it have a longer lifespan either. It won't make it feel better in my hand. How it cuts and how it feels are the things that are important to me and the only things I would consider extra costs for. I've been a customer since 1992 and purchased somewhere between 3 to 5 hundred so far so they are doing something I like.

Joe

So, why would you even want a Brouwer or a Domino? They're a frame locks with S30V and XHP blades respectively. You could get a Native 5 LW with S90V, S110V, or Maxamet blade that's lighter, less expensive, and has a stronger lock. You could get a Chaparral LW with that super thin XHP blade for literally half the price of the Brouwer, and less than half the price of a Domino. Or you could get an Endura sprint in a premium steel if you need a longer blade.

[The Mastiff]

So, why would you even want a Brouwer or a Domino? They're a frame locks with S30V and XHP blades respectively. You could get a Native 5 LW with S90V, S110V, or Maxamet blade that's lighter, less expensive, and has a stronger lock. You could get a Chaparral LW with that super thin XHP blade for literally half the price of the Brouwer, and less than half the price of a Domino. Or you could get an Endura sprint in a premium steel if you need a longer blade.

Are you even serious?

BTW I already have the Native, Chaparral and Enduras. Numerous of each in fact. Every steel and version.

Why would you even think it's your business to ask what knife I want or intend to buy?

[ugaarguy]

Are you even serious?

BTW I already have the Native, Chaparral and Enduras. Numerous of each in fact. Every steel and version.

Why would you even think it's your business to ask what knife I want or intend to buy?

Yes, I'm serious. It's a knife discussion forum. People talk about knives they like and why they like them. People talk why they want to buy or not buy different knives here. You also opened yourself up to the question when you wrote:

I'd prefer they try to save every penny for me they can. Solid CF won't make it cut any better. I'd go so far as to say it won't make it have a longer lifespan either. It won't make it feel better in my hand. How it cuts and how it feels are the things that are important to me and the only things I would consider extra costs for.

Modern hard plastics, like the ones Spyderco already uses, can be textured to feel just like G10. There are at least a few companies doing stacked layer textured vinyl that looks nearly indistinguishable from carbon fiber, and is approaching the feel. If you don't want to be asked about your purchasing preferences, perhaps you shouldn't participate in a thread about how material relative to price influence purchasing decisions. But, since you're still participating, I'll ask again, If feel and cutting performance are your only purchasing criteria, why are you even concerned with frame locks like the Brouwer and Domino?

[Bloke]

... if you need a longer blade.

[Daveho]

TBH I see both of those knives as over priced so advocating for additional expense dosnt do anything for me.
Honestly I’d be happy to do away with the carbon fibe and go with g10 and steel liners, drop the price closer to the $100 mark and I’d be happy as I like buying cheaper knives more frequently.

[bearfacedkiller]

I see a G10/CF laminate as an improvement over solid CF. It is less expensive and more durable. Also, I believe that folks grossly overestimate the weight difference between the two materials. Having weighed a G10 Militray and a CF Military side by side I can say there was a whopping 3 gram difference. That three gram difference came at the expense of increased cost and decreased durability. I sort of feel the same way about titanium liners.

This doesn't seem like it is as much about building the most functional knife as possible but rather about using materials with higher status.

[ChrisinHove]

It usually (pretty much always in my experience) isn’t a straight line graph between price and demand. As the price rises, demand falls disproportionately more and at an increasing rate.

Anyway, if the higher end models, whatever the definition, were being cqi’d with cheaper or lesser materials then that indeed would be “cost cutting”. Releasing an additional version or another model with different materials is simply increasing customer choice.

[Doc Dan]

Spyderco simply makes better and more reliable knives than many other knife companies, even though they sometimes cost less. I appreciate every bit of cost savings Sal gives us and most people do. It is prudent on Sal's part to give us such high quality knives at decent prices. Sometimes, because of the exchange rate, a knife I really want is too expensive for me if I am practical about it. So, when Sal makes it so I can afford one of his finest, I am a happy man.