Cost Cutting on Sprderco's Higher End Models, Why?

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ugaarguy
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Cost Cutting on Sprderco's Higher End Models, Why?

Postby ugaarguy » Mon Sep 03, 2018 4:25 pm

I understand cost cutting on lower end models, but I don't understand why Spyderco does it on higher models. The two in particular I'm thinking of are the now discontinued Domino, and the soon to be available Brouwer.

The Domino is now $220 MAP, and is still widely available. I bought one with one of the eBay coupons a few months ago in red CF laminate. I've also had a ZT 0562CF for a few years now. That ZT is now $250 MAP. For $30 more you get solid CF instead of a thin sheet of CF laminated to a G10 scale, a longer blade from slightly more expensive 204P or 20 CV steel, better ball bearings, a thicker steel lock face insert, the best factory pocket clip I've ever used, and the pride of a USA made knife over a Taiwan made knife. Yet, I like the Domino better because it has thinner blade stock that's full flat ground, I can open it with the flipper or Spyder hole (The ZT is flipper only), and I like the finger choil on the blade. But, the CF laminate still annoys me - that's what you see on the CF versions Ganzo knives, the CF versions of the Ontario RAT economy folders, and a similar process on Spyderco's own Polestar and Alcyone - it just doesn't belong on a $200+ knife. I'd rather have paid the extra $30 -$40 to get a solid CF scale. One of the M390 type steel triplets would have been nice too.

Then there's the soon to be released Brouwer. It's a great looking little knife for $175 MAP. Ti frame lock with hardened steel lock face insert, G10 show side scale, S30V blade. Overall, it's not a bad price for what I expect it to do based on the specs and the quality of the tree Taichung Spydercos I own. But, for some reason Spyderco decided to cost cut by putting a steel liner under the G10, rather than a Ti liner. Based on the price of the Domino and Dice which have Ti liners under G10 that has the additional CF laminate, plus ball bearing pivots; and the price of the all Ti Sage 2, I'm guessing that a Ti liner would have added $20-$25 to the end retail price of the Brouwer. Why cheap out with a steel liner on a knife that's already $175? I'll skip a dinner at the chain steak house for one more week to save another $25 for the liner upgrade, and I suspect that I'm not alone among consumers who buy knives in this price range.

I love Spyderco's designs, and the thin blades that are ground to cut. I think the designs being so good is why the cost cutting is so frustrating. Anyway, thanks for letting me get this off my chest. It's been bothering me for a while, and maybe the fine folks here can help me work through this annoyance.
Last edited by ugaarguy on Mon Sep 03, 2018 6:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Cost Cutting on High End Models, Why?

Postby araneae » Mon Sep 03, 2018 4:59 pm

Maybe they are trying to make it slightly more affordable to some folks that are uncomfortable spending an extra $25+ for something that adds zero functionality. Lots of folks, myself included, are not in the $200+ knife market because we can't afford it or don't see any reason to spend that much for a knife. Your complaint of cheapness may make the difference for whether some can afford the model or not. You can't always get what you want.
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Re: Cost Cutting on High End Models, Why?

Postby ugaarguy » Mon Sep 03, 2018 5:07 pm

araneae wrote:
Mon Sep 03, 2018 4:59 pm
Maybe they are trying to make it slightly more affordable to some folks that are uncomfortable spending an extra $25+ for something that adds zero functionality. Lots of folks, myself included, are not in the $200+ knife market because we can't afford it or don't see any reason to spend that much for a knife. Your complaint of cheapness may make the difference for whether some can afford the model or not. You can't always get what you want.
Actually, the Ti liner adds the functionality of corrosion resistance. My S30V blade Chaparral, my Cat, and my Chicago all developed rust on the scale side of the liners. So, the steel liner has taken the Brouwer from the top of my list to the bottom. Further, if an extra $25 is going to cause you financial strain, then you probably shouldn't be buying knives like the Brouwer to start with.

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Re: Cost Cutting on High End Models, Why?

Postby sal » Mon Sep 03, 2018 5:12 pm

Hi Ugaarguy,

Perhaps we don't think of it as cost cutting. Perhaps your estimate of an added $25 is low. Adding a Ti liner where no spring is necessary and using solid CF will add far more than you think? Why make the model more expensive than is necessary? Our knives are expensive for a lot of people and a few dollars savings is appreciated by many. For some reason, it seems that you think it will change the value of the model. I think that may be true for you, but we'll see where the discussion goes?

sal

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Re: Cost Cutting on High End Models, Why?

Postby knivesandbooks » Mon Sep 03, 2018 5:23 pm

This price area is a sensitive price area, one that Spyderco excels in far beyond the competition. You can spend a bit less and get a g10 native, which doesn't have the "issues" you speak of and is a fairly comparable model. Or spend quite a lot more and get a Spyderco that has cinsidered and addressed everything: the slsyz bowie or the upcoming drunken.
Last edited by knivesandbooks on Mon Sep 03, 2018 6:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Cost Cutting on High End Models, Why?

Postby Archimedes » Mon Sep 03, 2018 5:27 pm

I don't consider anything under $500 high end.

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Re: Cost Cutting on High End Models, Why?

Postby ugaarguy » Mon Sep 03, 2018 5:54 pm

Sal, ZT has shown that they can do a solid CF handle, a longer & thicker blade in 204P with a more complex grind, add in the cosmetic Hinder over-travel stop disk (the hardened steel lock face already handles over-travel), make the knife in Tualitin, Oregon, and ship internal parts for free, all at a $250 price point. I'd love to see Spyderco be able to close that specs gap with the Taichung and Golden models. Eric's Domino is the subjectively better cutting tool, but the ZT produced Hinderer 0562 CF is the better value using objective metrics.

Subjectively, I like the Domino much better. Since buying the Domino, it's the knife I mostly carry. When I'm not carrying the Domino, I'm carrying a Spydiechef clipped IWB of my gym shorts because I bought the Spydiechef for that purpose: It's a thin, light folder that I can sweat all over without worrying about it. The objectively better materials value ZT sits in a knife wrap, while the subjectively better in use Domino gets carried most often. I hope this is being perceived as the genuine conflict in subjective vs objective value that I'm trying to articulate.

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Re: Cost Cutting on High End Models, Why?

Postby koenigsegg » Mon Sep 03, 2018 5:55 pm

I do wish that all models had solid carbon fiber instead of G10 laminate
S30V, VG10, M4, XHP, BD1, Maxamet, 204P, H1, K390, A11, Rex45, LC200N, M390, 20CV, BD1N, S45VN

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Re: Cost Cutting on High End Models, Why?

Postby Archimedes » Mon Sep 03, 2018 6:02 pm

ugaarguy wrote:
Mon Sep 03, 2018 5:54 pm
Sal, ZT has shown that they can do a solid CF handle, a longer & thicker blade in 204P with a more complex grind, add in the cosmetic Hinder over-travel stop disk (the hardened steel lock face already handles over-travel), make the knife in Tualitin, Oregon, and ship internal parts for free, all at a $250 price point. I'd love to see Spyderco be able to close that specs gap with the Taichung and Golden models. Eric's Domino is the subjectively better cutting tool, but the ZT produced Hinderer 0562 CF is the better value using objective metrics.

Subjectively, I like the Domino much better. Since buying the Domino, it's the knife I mostly carry. When I'm not carrying the Domino, I'm carrying a Spydiechef clipped IWB of my gym shorts because I bought the Spydiechef for that purpose: It's a thin, light folder that I can sweat all over without worrying about it. The objectively better materials value ZT sits in a knife wrap, while the subjectively better in use Domino gets carried most often. I hope this is being perceived as the genuine conflict in subjective vs objective value that I'm trying to articulate.
Was the Hinderer over travel stop disk a solution to a problem that never existed?

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Re: Cost Cutting on High End Models, Why?

Postby ugaarguy » Mon Sep 03, 2018 6:04 pm

Archimedes wrote:
Mon Sep 03, 2018 5:27 pm
I don't consider anything under $500 high end.
Well, this is the Spyderco forum, and the Spyderco specific discussion section. The upcoming Paysan is the only Spyderco that's over $500 MAP. So, in the context of Spyderco knives, I'd say that I'm justified in describing $175+ models as high end.

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Re: Cost Cutting on High End Models, Why?

Postby ugaarguy » Mon Sep 03, 2018 6:12 pm

Archimedes wrote:
Mon Sep 03, 2018 6:02 pm
Was the Hinderer over travel stop disk a solution to a problem that never existed?
That could be debated for days. Spyderco did integrate the over travel stop internally on their RILs that have the hardened steel lock bar face, and continues to do so. Spyderco also leaves their plain Ti RILs without an over travel stop. So, I don't know. My point in the post I made was that Hinderer disk is purely cosmetic on the 0562, since the over travel stop that's integrated into the lock bar face already handles that. Hence, that disk, screw, screw hole, and disk recess in the frame are an additional parts and machining expense that ZT still manages to include in a very competitively priced knife.

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Re: Cost Cutting on High End Models, Why?

Postby Archimedes » Mon Sep 03, 2018 6:24 pm

ugaarguy wrote:
Mon Sep 03, 2018 6:04 pm
Archimedes wrote:
Mon Sep 03, 2018 5:27 pm
I don't consider anything under $500 high end.
Well, this is the Spyderco forum, and the Spyderco specific discussion section. The upcoming Paysan is the only Spyderco that's over $500 MAP. So, in the context of Spyderco knives, I'd say that I'm justified in describing $175+ models as high end.
I would strongly disagree. That price point is average these days. I spend over a $100 dollars every time I fill up my Ford F150.

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Re: Cost Cutting on High End Models, Why?

Postby Archimedes » Mon Sep 03, 2018 6:27 pm

ugaarguy wrote:
Mon Sep 03, 2018 6:12 pm
Archimedes wrote:
Mon Sep 03, 2018 6:02 pm
Was the Hinderer over travel stop disk a solution to a problem that never existed?
That could be debated for days. Spyderco did integrate the over travel stop internally on their RILs that have the hardened steel lock bar face, and continues to do so. Spyderco also leaves their plain Ti RILs without an over travel stop. So, I don't know. My point in the post I made was that Hinderer disk is purely cosmetic on the 0562, since the over travel stop that's integrated into the lock bar face already handles that. Hence, that disk, screw, screw hole, and disk recess in the frame are an additional parts and machining expense that ZT still manages to include in a very competitively priced knife.
What you are saying is on the 0562 the lockbar stabilizer is cosmetic? Why?

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Re: Cost Cutting on Sprderco's Higher End Models, Why?

Postby JonLeBlanc » Mon Sep 03, 2018 6:35 pm

The more money Spyderco saves us per knife means more knives we can buy from Spyderco :cool: Thanks Spyderco !
My collection so far: 52100 Military (2); 52100 PM2 (2); 52100 Para3; Stretch2 V-Toku; KnifeWorks M4 PM2; BentoBox M390 PM2; BentoBox S90V Military; Police4 K390; S110V PM2; SS Delica AUS-6; Wayne Goddard Sprint VG-10
Wish list: Hundred Pacer; Sliverax; Mantra; 52100 PM2 SE; Kapara

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Re: Cost Cutting on High End Models, Why?

Postby ugaarguy » Mon Sep 03, 2018 6:37 pm

Archimedes wrote: What you are saying is on the 0562 the lockbar stabilizer is cosmetic? Why?
Because the Hinderer lock bar stabilizer is an over travel stop. On the 0562 the hardened lock bar face also serves as an over travel stop, and it stops lock bar travel before the Hinderer stabilizer disk takes effect. Hence, the stabilizer disk becomes cosmetic.
Archimedes wrote:
Mon Sep 03, 2018 6:24 pm
ugaarguy wrote:
Mon Sep 03, 2018 6:04 pm
Archimedes wrote:
Mon Sep 03, 2018 5:27 pm
I don't consider anything under $500 high end.
Well, this is the Spyderco forum, and the Spyderco specific discussion section. The upcoming Paysan is the only Spyderco that's over $500 MAP. So, in the context of Spyderco knives, I'd say that I'm justified in describing $175+ models as high end.
I would strongly disagree. That price point is average these days. I spend over a $100 dollars every time I fill up my Ford F150.
I've edited the title since you're clearly incapable of comprehending my meaning within the context of the knives that Spyderco offers. What it cost you to fill up your truck has absolutely no relevance to what Spyderco models cost when compared to other Spyderco models. Perhaps go take (or retake) a college philosophy, debate, or argumentative writing class so you can brush up on your understanding.

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Re: Cost Cutting on Sprderco's Higher End Models, Why?

Postby ugaarguy » Mon Sep 03, 2018 6:40 pm

JonLeBlanc wrote:
Mon Sep 03, 2018 6:35 pm
The more money Spyderco saves us per knife means more knives we can buy from Spyderco :cool: Thanks Spyderco !
Then why make Titanium frame locks at all? Why makes knives with G10 or Carbon fiber handles at all? If it's only about saving money then why buy anything more expensive than an FRN handle Byrd?

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Re: Cost Cutting on High End Models, Why?

Postby Archimedes » Mon Sep 03, 2018 6:41 pm

ugaarguy wrote:
Mon Sep 03, 2018 6:37 pm
Archimedes wrote: What you are saying is on the 0562 the lockbar stabilizer is cosmetic? Why?
Because the Hinderer lock bar stabilizer is an over travel stop. On the 0562 the hardened lock bar face also serves as an over travel stop, and it stops lock bar travel before the Hinderer stabilizer disk takes effect. Hence, the stabilizer disk becomes cosmetic.
Archimedes wrote:
Mon Sep 03, 2018 6:24 pm
ugaarguy wrote:
Mon Sep 03, 2018 6:04 pm
Archimedes wrote:
Mon Sep 03, 2018 5:27 pm
I don't consider anything under $500 high end.
Well, this is the Spyderco forum, and the Spyderco specific discussion section. The upcoming Paysan is the only Spyderco that's over $500 MAP. So, in the context of Spyderco knives, I'd say that I'm justified in describing $175+ models as high end.
I would strongly disagree. That price point is average these days. I spend over a $100 dollars every time I fill up my Ford F150.
I've edited the title since you're clearly incapable of comprehending my meaning within the context of the knives that Spyderco offers. What it cost you to fill up your truck has absolutely no relevance to what Spyderco models cost when compared to other Spyderco models. Perhaps go take (or retake) a college philosophy, debate, or argumentative writing class so you can brush up on your understanding.


What it costs to fill my truck has relevance to me.

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Re: Cost Cutting on Sprderco's Higher End Models, Why?

Postby med » Mon Sep 03, 2018 6:47 pm

ugaarguy wrote:
Mon Sep 03, 2018 4:25 pm
I love Spyderco's designs, and the thin blades that are ground to cut
This are why I use Spyderco in the first place. As far as the designs the PM2 and Para 3 are the main things I buy.

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Re: Cost Cutting on Sprderco's Higher End Models, Why?

Postby Bloke » Mon Sep 03, 2018 6:48 pm

Hi ugaarguy, If something annoys me I just don't think about it.

I'm not too sure this will help you here but it certainly works for me and may be worth a try. :)
A day without laughter is a day wasted. ~ Charlie Chaplin

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Re: Cost Cutting on High End Models, Why?

Postby ugaarguy » Mon Sep 03, 2018 6:53 pm

Archimedes wrote:
Mon Sep 03, 2018 6:41 pm
ugaarguy wrote:
Mon Sep 03, 2018 6:37 pm
Archimedes wrote: What you are saying is on the 0562 the lockbar stabilizer is cosmetic? Why?
Because the Hinderer lock bar stabilizer is an over travel stop. On the 0562 the hardened lock bar face also serves as an over travel stop, and it stops lock bar travel before the Hinderer stabilizer disk takes effect. Hence, the stabilizer disk becomes cosmetic.
Archimedes wrote:
Mon Sep 03, 2018 6:24 pm
ugaarguy wrote:
Mon Sep 03, 2018 6:04 pm

Well, this is the Spyderco forum, and the Spyderco specific discussion section. The upcoming Paysan is the only Spyderco that's over $500 MAP. So, in the context of Spyderco knives, I'd say that I'm justified in describing $175+ models as high end.
I would strongly disagree. That price point is average these days. I spend over a $100 dollars every time I fill up my Ford F150.
I've edited the title since you're clearly incapable of comprehending my meaning within the context of the knives that Spyderco offers. What it cost you to fill up your truck has absolutely no relevance to what Spyderco models cost when compared to other Spyderco models. Perhaps go take (or retake) a college philosophy, debate, or argumentative writing class so you can brush up on your understanding.


What it costs to fill my truck has relevance to me.
What it cost to you to fill your truck may be of concern to you, but it has no relevance in determining what a high end Spyderco is or isn't. A high end or low end Spyderco is determined by its cost relative to other Spydercos. A high end or low end mass produced pocket knife is determined by it's price relative to other mass produced pocket knives. Comparing Spyderco knives to other mass produced knives with which they compete is relevant. Comparing Spyderco to low volume mid techs or to even lower volume custom knives is at best minimally relevant.


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