Serrated Yojimbo 2

[Frozenspyder]

Blurple Yojimbo 2? There's something I hadn't ever even thought of but now suddenly want to have.

[JohnAPA]

The Yo is Michael's rendition of the ultimate fighting folder. He does not believe in a serrated edge for MBC because it can snag on clothing during the quad cut. You won't find a bottle opener version either, so no.

[markg]

Ug I hate this argument. Has anyone heard of a yojimbo being used for SD ever? I’d bet my bottom dollar that the vast majority of the people who bought this relatively popular design did so because they liked the ergos and liked that it was a comp lock wharnie. This thing cuts boxes and tape, not people. Make it in SE. Heck put a warning on it: “Caution! This knife is no longer ideal for defending you from a clothed assailant! It will, however cut naked assailants and boxes just fine.”

If you’re in a SD scenario you’ll use what you have on you anyway. If you don’t carry your yojimbo 100% of the time, and even then only as a purpose built SD blade, with a regular knife for EDC tasks, then this is not an argument. In fact, it wouldn’t be an argument in any case, since you could carry the PE as the SD knife and the SE as your EDC. Come tho think of it that actually might be an argument for improving you potential effectiveness in a SD scenario, since you use one design consistently. But going down that path just shows how silly it is to do a bunch of intellectual “what ifs” around SD scenarios.

The only argument would be against REPLACING the PE with SE, which no one has ever suggested.

Point being, since the designer of the knife has a strong position as to the design of the blade and its application... AND works for Spyderco, I don't see it happening. He has worked to see his vision of a defensive folder made, has refined the design over a decade or more, across two companies. Blade steel in a defensive knife is of minimal concern, handle color also, even a blade coating. Changing the edge configuration would move this knife out of the designers vision (of which he has some passion about and has significant input over). I don't really care if someone wants a Yo2 with a serrated edge and uses as a utility blade, my point is I don't see it happening. Then again I could be wrong. All of the LE of this knife never changed the philosophy of use, a serrated edge would which I think would put a stop to the idea. There is nothing wrong with you wanting one, or using the knife in activities other than it was designed, it is just I don't see it being a reality.

That aside, I would also have serious questions about the ability to make it a full serrated blade. I don't see how you can make it fully serrated. The thin tapered tip of the Yojimbo might make it hard to serrate to the tip. And no body wants a CE Yojimbo, trust me. :D

[Evil D]

Michael also didn't like/want a DLC version either, I begged for one for years and at one point it was either him or Sal who mentioned that he just didn't like DLC. But, we see how that turned out. If there is enough demand for something, it's a little silly to not support it. Business is business. All this debate about self defense and whether SE is good for it is absolutely irrelevant...do you really think all the Yo 2's they're selling are being bought and used solely for self defense? Intent is one thing but actual use is another, and the fact is a wharnie blade was used as a utility blade before it was ever used for self defense and it still works just as well for utility and would work that much better with serrations.

[Michael Janich]

Hey, All:

Sorry for the slow response. I was in Kansas City all last week for the production of season 11 of "The Best Defense" TV series, so I've been away from the keyboard...

Thank you for the interesting suggestion. My personal preference for self-defense blades is PlainEdge. I base that opinion on having done lots of test cutting on "Pork Men" and other targets covered with various types of clothing. I've found that serrated edges tend to "grab" loose clothing and move it with the action of the cut. That dissipates the power of the cut significantly and reduces the effectiveness of the cutting action on the underlying target. Plain edges, conversely, tend to cut cleaner. They cut the clothing and the underlying meat without snagging.

The above opinion applies primarily to non-hawkbill and non-Reverse-S blade profiles. Because of their claw-like points, hawkbills and Reverse-S blades work just fine with serrated edges. The down side is that they typically do not allow thrusting with a natural wrist position.

For the record, I have received direct feedback from people who have used the Yojimbo 2 in self-defense. They were pleased with--and grateful for--its performance.

Although the Yo 2 was designed to optimize its performance as a personal-defense tool, the same attributes that make it shine in that role also make it a great utility knife. The Wharncliffe blade profile offers everything from brute cutting force at the heel to scalpel-like precision at the tip. That's why the Wharncliffe is a "go-to" shape for box cutters and industrial knives. To categorize it as a self-defense-only design is therefore inaccurate.

With all that in mind, would serrations add to its effectiveness as a self-defense tool? In my opinion, no. Would they make it a better and more versatile EDC tool? Yes, depending upon the types of EDC chores you typically perform. Against rope, webbing, and fibrous materials, a serrated Wharncliffe cuts better than a PlainEdge. That's exactly why my back-pocket knife--which is my primary utility knife--is a serrated Wharnie Delica.

Would I like to see a serrated Yo 2? Sure. It would be fun to test the design in that configuration and I'm sure Yo 2 collectors would appreciate its uniqueness. That decision, however, is above my pay grade...

Thanks for a cool discussion and your patience with my late entry.

Stay safe,

Mike

[tvenuto]

No worries on the delay, thanks very much for taking the time to comment. I personally love the Yo2 ergos and wish it came in more flavors.

[MichaelScott]

This was a generally interesting discussion until it turned personal. The essential point seemed to be when tevenuto said, “I’m not questioning his original intent and I'm not suggesting that SE replaces PE. I'm suggesting there's nothing wrong with doing a run in SE.“

Then it got off track entirely.

Discussions are difficult especially in this medium. I know, being guilty of talking instead of listening and trying to understand first.

Perhaps we could try again?

The significant things I have learned about the Yojimbo here, including all of the posts I have read about it, is how ergonomically it was designed, why it was designed and how fiendishly adaptable it is to work outside the self defense role.

And, I love weird, alien-shape designs and Wharncliffe blades.

[SpyderScout]

This was a generally interesting discussion until it turned personal. The essential point seemed to be when tevenuto said, “I’m not questioning his original intent and I'm not suggesting that SE replaces PE. I'm suggesting there's nothing wrong with doing a run in SE.“

Nope.

This turned sideways, when the word 'hate' was introduced, I appealed for a more gentle tone and then was accused of being 'wildly hypocritical.'

As for SE, I repeatedly stated, that I dont think, that SE was in the design intent and that I certainly see practical applications for SE in other knives.

The significant things I have learned about the Yojimbo here, including all of the posts I have read about it, is how ergonomically it was designed, why it was designed and how fiendishly adaptable it is to work outside the self defense role.

And, I love weird, alien-shape designs and Wharncliffe blades.

I agree.

[Spyder_MN]

Wow! Stay off the forums for a day or two and you can miss a lot of discussion!
I think Evil D makes a great point; the tip of the Yo2 is too thin to be serrated. I don't know how I missed that earlier. :confused:
I guess I would say that I understand how you could say the SE would not be in agreement with the design philosophy of the knife, but perhaps it lines up more with the actual use cases the Yojimbo sees on a regular basis from people who, like me, don't intend to use it for self defense but merely as an ergonomic marvel that cuts everything well. For utility, SE (partially serrated?) might be better. I won't dispute Mr. Janich that for self defense a plain edge is best. His experience in that arena dwarfs my own.
I've really enjoyed reading the discussions that have come from this thread. Thanks everyone for your feedback.

[tvenuto]

Nope.

This turned sideways, when the word 'hate' was introduced, I appealed for a more gentle tone and then was accused of being 'wildly hypocritical.'

Hating a concept is not the same as hating a person, but I'm sorry if my strong wording kicked off a misunderstanding.

"Disingenuous" is not the same thing as "hypocritical" (and it was your suggestion, not you). If I told my wife: "Man, I wish Spyderco would release a yellow PM2!" she could look through Spyderco's catalog, and say "hey, just buy a Pacific Salt." This would not be a disingenuous suggestion coming from her, because she has pointed out a yellow knife of approximately the same size as a PM2. She actually doesn't know why a Pac Salt will not satisfy my desire for a yellow PM2.

The suggestion "just buy another SE knife" coming from a fellow knife enthusiast is disingenuous, because it feigns the same ignorance as my wife. All day every day on here people are suggesting this or that feature on a particular design, and it would be a bit silly for them to always be met with such a suggestion. "Want a Lc2000n PM2? Buy a Caribbean!" "Want a wire clip on a delica? Buy a sage!"

I don't want this to devolve to an argument about arguing, but it appears I was misunderstood and wanted to clear up what I meant, and why I stated what I did.

It seems like we can all agree that more flavors of Yo2 are a good thing, and it's good to know that Mr. Janich is not opposed.

[MichaelScott]

Thank you for clarifying. Hate was, I also think, taken out of context or misappplied and not intended as a reference to the OP.

When people are disingenuous it probably because they aren’t speaking to the points at hand but assuming a different argument. Hard to stay on track at times.

My opinion is that yes, Mr. Janich most likely did design and refine his ideas around a folding self-defense knife resulting in the current Yojimbo configuration. Since it remains in production it must have been also a sound business decision for Spyderco. And, since I really do not think the majority of the Yojimbo buyers are focused primarily on self defense this indicates the knife is also very good for carry and other duties, as many have shown.

So, if there is a strong likelihood that a Spyder Edge model would also serve that non-SD market I could see that Spyderco and Mr. Janich might put up a prototype. However,since a SE Yojimbo would fall outside the original and intended design uses, I would not call it a sprint, or Yojimbo SE because it would be a diffferent knife made for a primarily different function and self defense might well be the secondary one.

Could be an identity or marketing issue since I would try to maintain the separation beteeen the two while recognizing their connections.

Anyway, most interesting discussion.

I spent some additional time with various reviews, written and video (thanks, Nick S. We often don’t agree but I certainly get a lot of things to chew on after watching yours) on the Yojimbo. My personal preference is to have a very similar knife with the hand ergonomics almost everyone praises but 20% - 30% smaller overall, a much narrower blade and both SE and PE. Now, that would put a dent in my “essentials” thinking for sure.

[SpyderScout]

Disingenous is not the same thing as "hypocritical" (and it was your suggestion, not you).

The Cambridge dictionary has the meaning down as 'slightly dishonest.'

I dont know, which I would prefer to be called the least.
In any event not flattering.

In less gentle times, this would have been found an offensive slight and would have caused a calling put for rapiers outside of town .... instead of this verbal 'handbags at dawn' between to (presumably) adults :p

https://youtu.be/-NyixQ54vS8

Good, that neither of us are operators and only use our Yojimbos for cardboard killing.

Also pls dont compare me to your wife, who is probably a sensible person with zero interest in knives.

But yes, lets agree to move on and leave the serious stuff to mr Janich and agree, that we like the Yojimbo - serrated or not.

For the record, I also want a Perrin/Janich Fusion, a Ronin, a Janich Endura and a Janich Delica (all PE) :D

[Evil D]

Just an FYI, I'm not sure if they still do but these guys used to grind serrations into any knife for $6, and they could do Spyderco patterns.

http://www.willeyknives.com

[tvenuto]

Just an FYI, I'm not sure if they still do but these guys used to grind serrations into any knife for $6, and they could do Spyderco patterns.

http://www.willeyknives.com

Ha. Yea I have half a mind to buy back-ups of models that I’ve been requesting and just commission myself what I’ve been asking of Spyderco. This one and the R come to mind. Now if only I could find some users at a decent price...

[Sumdumguy]

The Yo is Michael's rendition of the ultimate fighting folder. He does not believe in a serrated edge for MBC because it can snag on clothing during the quad cut. You won't find a bottle opener version either, so no.

But it also happens to be a fantastic blade for utility, so yes.

[Wanimator]

I mean, you could send one in to Tom Veff and see how it performs when serrated.

[twinboysdad]

Ug I hate this argument. Has anyone heard of a yojimbo being used for SD ever? I’d bet my bottom dollar that the vast majority of the people who bought this relatively popular design did so because they liked the ergos and liked that it was a comp lock wharnie. This thing cuts boxes and tape, not people. Make it in SE. Heck put a warning on it: “Caution! This knife is no longer ideal for defending you from a clothed assailant! It will, however cut naked assailants and boxes just fine.”

If you’re in a SD scenario you’ll use what you have on you anyway. If you don’t carry your yojimbo 100% of the time, and even then only as a purpose built SD blade, with a regular knife for EDC tasks, then this is not an argument. In fact, it wouldn’t be an argument in any case, since you could carry the PE as the SD knife and the SE as your EDC. Come tho think of it that actually might be an argument for improving you potential effectiveness in a SD scenario, since you use one design consistently. But going down that path just shows how silly it is to do a bunch of intellectual “what ifs” around SD scenarios.

The only argument would be against REPLACING the PE with SE, which no one has ever suggested.

Bravo. One of the best posts I’ve read here ever

[twinboysdad]

This was a generally interesting discussion until it turned personal. The essential point seemed to be when tevenuto said, “I’m not questioning his original intent and I'm not suggesting that SE replaces PE. I'm suggesting there's nothing wrong with doing a run in SE.“

Nope.

This turned sideways, when the word 'hate' was introduced, I appealed for a more gentle tone and then was accused of being 'wildly hypocritical.'

As for SE, I repeatedly stated, that I dont think, that SE was in the design intent and that I certainly see practical applications for SE


Dude, take a lap...

[Michael Janich]

This morning I read this entire thread several times and have been debating whether I wanted to jump into it again. Since it's my design, I work for and represent Spyderco, and the Yo 2 is a direct reflection of my philosophy on self-defense, I ultimately decided to give it a shot.

First of all, I'm all about discussing the merits of different design variations and possible ways of pushing the envelope of knife performance. Let's keep doing that.

The personal attacks and inflammatory language are not consistent with the spirit of this forum. When people resort to those, I invariably think less of their opinions anyway.

"Has anyone ever heard of a Yojimbo 2 being used for self-defense, ever?" Yes, I have. In fact, I have spoken with quite a few people who have successfully used knives in both self-defense and duty-bound close-combat. Their skills and determination literally saved their lives. Dismissing the concept of self-defense with knives as fantasy is therefore not only factually wrong, but is disrespectful to those who have been forced to do it and those who train diligently to have that capability.

Much of the inspiration for the Yo 2 came from the original Spyderco Centofante folders. My examples of those were serrated, but necessarily included a significant section of PE near the tip. I actually cut things with them, took the time to understand the dynamics of their performance, and then built on that understanding with the original Yojimbo and ultimately the Yo 2.

As for DLC coating, S110V, and other variations of the Yo 2, I am not against them, as some have suggested. I simply do not have the power to make those things happen as commercial products.

Finally, it's worth remembering that serrated edges come with their own peculiarities. The blade typically must be ground thicker behind the edge and the terminal edge bevel is chisel ground. Those dynamics can also change the performance characteristics of a blade style. Am I willing to give it a try? Sure, put me down for six and stock the freezer with pork...

Stay safe,

Mike

[MichaelScott]

Ah, ha! More learning happening for me. Things I didn’t know about edge dynamics relative to grind types.

Thanks, Mike