Sal, why is the Delica ground so thick behind the edge ?

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elena86
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Sal, why is the Delica ground so thick behind the edge ?

Postby elena86 » Mon May 28, 2018 3:42 am

Slightly thicker than the PM2 according to my measurements( both sharpened at 15dps). It's a nonsense and a waste of slicing capabilities for the Delica's 2,5 mm blade IMHO. :confused:
Last edited by elena86 on Fri Jun 01, 2018 5:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Sal, why is the Delica grinded so thick behind the edge ?

Postby razorsharp » Mon May 28, 2018 4:18 am

Hence why my delica ended up on a grinder way back when before I gave it away :p

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Re: Sal, why is the Delica grinded so thick behind the edge ?

Postby Daveho » Mon May 28, 2018 5:45 am

Never had any trouble cutting with one.
Are you actually running into problems?

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Re: Sal, why is the Delica grinded so thick behind the edge ?

Postby Larrin » Mon May 28, 2018 6:17 am

Poor Sal has to answer for everything.
http://www.KnifeSteelNerds.com - Steel Metallurgy topics related to knives

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Re: Sal, why is the Delica grinded so thick behind the edge ?

Postby JonLeBlanc » Mon May 28, 2018 7:16 am

Larrin wrote:
Mon May 28, 2018 6:17 am
Poor Sal has to answer for everything.
I know right
My collection so far: 52100 Military (2); 52100 PM2 (2); 52100 Para3; Stretch2 V-Toku; KnifeWorks M4 PM2; BentoBox M390 PM2; BentoBox S90V Military; Police4 K390; S110V PM2; SS Delica AUS-6; Wayne Goddard Sprint VG-10
Wish list: Hundred Pacer; Sliverax; Mantra; 52100 PM2 SE; Kapara

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Re: Sal, why is the Delica grinded so thick behind the edge ?

Postby ABX2011 » Mon May 28, 2018 7:16 am

Try measuring further up and then compare to the PM2.
These are production knives that are inherently compromised to perform well for the average user. If you need a knife more optimized for slicing then modify the knife or buy something else.

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Re: Sal, why is the Delica grinded so thick behind the edge ?

Postby Nate » Mon May 28, 2018 7:32 am

Sal recently addressed a simiar question on Cliff's forum, hopefully he doesn't mind the cross-quoting:

"First, when we select a geometry for a blade in production, we really can't make the optimal geometry for a particular steel because all of the customers are different. We have to select an optimal for the majority of the customers.

second, we assume that guys like you or me can adjust the geometry more specific to the material..."

(From: Can Geometry Make Up For Wear Resistance?)

I'd assume that's the majority of the answer, it's a mass-market design for the average Joe. Then probably some variation around whatever the target is in production.
:spyder:

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Re: Sal, why is the Delica grinded so thick behind the edge ?

Postby Evil D » Mon May 28, 2018 7:38 am

Because we live in a world where the measure of a good knife is how well it can be used for non knife jobs. If Spyderco made everything like the Nilakka they'd get branded as a fragile knife company that can't survive "real world use".
SHARPEN IT LIKE YOU LOVE IT, USE IT LIKE YOU HATE IT
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Re: Sal, why is the Delica grinded so thick behind the edge ?

Postby elena86 » Mon May 28, 2018 7:39 am

You're missing the point here. I'm just saying that there is no reason to have a 2.5 mm blade stock and grind it thicker than a 3.7 mm blade stock behind the edge. You're just compromising the slicing capability of such a thin blade. Delica is a great platform and deserves to shine. That's all.

P.S
Stop throwing stones at me :) . It's not a criticism I'm just trying to suggest an improvement of this iconic spydie. :spyder:
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Re: Sal, why is the Delica grinded so thick behind the edge ?

Postby jpm2 » Mon May 28, 2018 8:02 am

How do you make the primary FFG any thinner given a set thickness and height? I must not understand geometry too well.

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Re: Sal, why is the Delica grinded so thick behind the edge ?

Postby Evil D » Mon May 28, 2018 9:02 am

elena86 wrote:
Mon May 28, 2018 7:39 am
You're missing the point here. I'm just saying that there is no reason to have a 2.5 mm blade stock and grind it thicker than a 3.7 mm blade stock behind the edge. You're just compromising the slicing capability of such a thin blade. Delica is a great platform and deserves to shine. That's all.

P.S
Stop throwing stones at me :) . It's not a criticism I'm just trying to suggest an improvement of this iconic spydie. :spyder:


I actually agree with you, I hope you didn't feel I was throwing stones. I think most of us are just pointing out that too many people don't know how to use knives without breaking them, and Spyderco are the ones who will deal with the backlash so they have to engineer in some idiot proofing. I would love it if there were either sprints or separate production variants for AFI's, blades with thinner stock and thinner grinds aimed at higher performance for those who don't dismantle cars with their pocket knives. I think if they included a user advisory note like they do with the Civilian they might be able to protect themselves from dealing with broken blade warranties. There are just too many assumptions that "light use/duty" equals "weak/fragile/definitely gonna break" which translates into something people are afraid of buying. There are so many companies who push outright beatability as the benchmark that all knives are measured by that to market anything less is not a smart business practice. So, the general run 'o the mill production knife has to be made idiot proof and those of us who appreciate thinner blades are left with regrinds as a consolation prize.



All that aside, if you search enough through this forum and likely others you'll find LOTS of people and comments suggesting that the FFG Delica is fragile and not suited for more than opening your mail, and that the saber grind version was better. When there are so many people who value beatability over slicing performance, you can't blame Spyderco for playing it safe with their grinds.
SHARPEN IT LIKE YOU LOVE IT, USE IT LIKE YOU HATE IT
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Re: Sal, why is the Delica grinded so thick behind the edge ?

Postby knivesandbooks » Mon May 28, 2018 10:28 am

I agree with Evil D. Plus, the Delica is supposed to be an afforadable, high value/high quality everyman's knife. It's not an afi knife and not a specialised knife. Performance wise as a single option cutting tool, it works fine. Works better than most.
Last edited by knivesandbooks on Mon May 28, 2018 11:15 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Sal, why is the Delica grinded so thick behind the edge ?

Postby tvenuto » Mon May 28, 2018 10:47 am

elena86 wrote:
Mon May 28, 2018 7:39 am
You're missing the point here. I'm just saying that there is no reason to have a 2.5 mm blade stock and grind it thicker than a 3.7 mm blade stock behind the edge. You're just compromising the slicing capability of such a thin blade. Delica is a great platform and deserves to shine. That's all.

P.S
Stop throwing stones at me :) . It's not a criticism I'm just trying to suggest an improvement of this iconic spydie. :spyder:
No one is missing the point, your assertion that there is "no reason" and that it is "nonsense" are hyperbolic and do not invite discussion. Clearly there are costs and benefits to thickening or thinning blade stock, people have been listing the benefits of a thicker than "ideal" cutting geometry.

...and this has to be the most gentle stone throwing anyone has ever received on an internet forum.

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Re: Sal, why is the Delica grinded so thick behind the edge ?

Postby elena86 » Mon May 28, 2018 10:57 am

tvenuto wrote:
Mon May 28, 2018 10:47 am
elena86 wrote:
Mon May 28, 2018 7:39 am
You're missing the point here. I'm just saying that there is no reason to have a 2.5 mm blade stock and grind it thicker than a 3.7 mm blade stock behind the edge. You're just compromising the slicing capability of such a thin blade. Delica is a great platform and deserves to shine. That's all.

P.S
Stop throwing stones at me :) . It's not a criticism I'm just trying to suggest an improvement of this iconic spydie. :spyder:
No one is missing the point, your assertion that there is "no reason" and that it is "nonsense" are hyperbolic and do not invite discussion. Clearly there are costs and benefits to thickening or thinning blade stock, people have been listing the benefits of a thicker than "ideal" cutting geometry.

...and this has to be the most gentle stone throwing anyone has ever received on an internet forum.

1.Hyperbolic you say.... I say provocative....and it did work :p
2.Gentle throwing you say ... I say ... curved :rolleyes:
Marius

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Re: Sal, why is the Delica grinded so thick behind the edge ?

Postby tvenuto » Mon May 28, 2018 11:27 am

If by "worked" you mean the community showed it was able to resist the urge to start a flame war due to the wording of the OP, and then resisted once again when they were accused of it anyway, then I would agree with you. Thanks for verifying this is a very tolerant place.

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Re: Sal, why is the Delica grinded so thick behind the edge ?

Postby elena86 » Mon May 28, 2018 3:18 pm

So, you're the spokesman for the community ? Why didn't you say so ? In that case you are allowed to keep trolling my thread. Enjoy !
Marius

" A mind all logic is like a knife all blade. It makes the hand bleed that uses it " ( Rabindranath Tagore )

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Re: Sal, why is the Delica grinded so thick behind the edge ?

Postby gaj999 » Mon May 28, 2018 4:10 pm

Evil D wrote:
Mon May 28, 2018 7:38 am
... If Spyderco made everything like the Nilakka they'd get branded as a fragile knife company that can't survive "real world use"...
Except my Nilakka is quite thick behind the edge. Once I went to my usual 10dps, I got a huge bevel. It really pissed me off. Another @!#$% folding crowbar. I'm pretty sure it was the last Spyderco I bought.

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Re: Sal, why is the Delica grinded so thick behind the edge ?

Postby Evil D » Mon May 28, 2018 4:17 pm

gaj999 wrote:
Mon May 28, 2018 4:10 pm
Evil D wrote:
Mon May 28, 2018 7:38 am
... If Spyderco made everything like the Nilakka they'd get branded as a fragile knife company that can't survive "real world use"...
Except my Nilakka is quite thick behind the edge. Once I went to my usual 10dps, I got a huge bevel. It really pissed me off. Another @!#$% folding crowbar. I'm pretty sure it was the last Spyderco I bought.


Obviously it was an example. It has 5mm thick blade stock and is a near zero grind. I'm pretty sure you get the point I was trying to make.
SHARPEN IT LIKE YOU LOVE IT, USE IT LIKE YOU HATE IT
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Re: Sal, why is the Delica grinded so thick behind the edge ?

Postby gaj999 » Mon May 28, 2018 4:34 pm

Evil D wrote:
Mon May 28, 2018 4:17 pm
Obviously it was an example. It has 5mm thick blade stock and is a near zero grind. I'm pretty sure you get the point I was trying to make.
I get that your point is that Spyderco doesn't grind anything thin because of warantee costs. Yes, I do know that there are companies who do even worse. I don't buy from them either. I had hoped that my Nilakka would be "near zero grind". It isn't even close. Every time I look at that knife(or someone reminds me of it) it annoys me. So I sound off.

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Re: Sal, why is the Delica grinded so thick behind the edge ?

Postby Evil D » Mon May 28, 2018 4:41 pm

gaj999 wrote:
Mon May 28, 2018 4:34 pm
Evil D wrote:
Mon May 28, 2018 4:17 pm
Obviously it was an example. It has 5mm thick blade stock and is a near zero grind. I'm pretty sure you get the point I was trying to make.
I get that your point is that Spyderco doesn't grind anything thin because of warantee costs. Yes, I do know that there are companies who do even worse. I don't buy from them either. I had hoped that my Nilakka would be "near zero grind". It isn't even close. Every time I look at that knife(or someone reminds me of it) it annoys me. So I sound off.

Well case in point, it WAS a full zero grind originally but too many complaints about chipping and edge fractures led them to giving it a small bevel. It is still near a zero grind, it's just thicker behind the edge than you expected because the blade stock is so thick and the blade height is so low, it's a wedge. This is why others have also mentioned going with thinner blade stock for this idea. You can zero grind a 2 inch thick bar of steel and it won't slice for crap, the grind is only part of the equation.
SHARPEN IT LIKE YOU LOVE IT, USE IT LIKE YOU HATE IT
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