Toughest stainless steel ?

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Re: Toughest stainless steel ?

Postby Ankerson » Wed May 09, 2018 10:36 am

wrdwrght wrote:
Wed May 09, 2018 10:18 am
Leaving aside the truly tough nitrogen-based H1 and LC200N, and reputedly tough carbon-based steels that either have fallen out of fashion or have yet to gain traction, S30V would be my candidate for "toughest stainless" (once the likely-brittled factory-edge has been reprofiled).

But, truth be told (and I think Jim Ankerson tells it), toughness in typically-tasked folders is not likely to matter beyond hoping for a rolled edge over a chipped one.

FWIW, I have yet to chip either my favored 204P or M390 Spydies or my slightly less-favored XHP or S110V ones in typical use, but I have rolled them occasionally, so they are tough enough for me.

Why Blade Sports competitors choose the steels they do remains a mystery to me. But I would suspect that corrosion-resistance plays a distant second-fiddle to wear- and fracture-resistance, hence the place of M4 and such in the test.

If you remember Strider used S30V for a VERY LONG TIME in all of their knives including their large fixed blades.

They have been some of the most hard tested knives on the market over the years and they held up.

It all comes down to HT and geometry in the end.

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Re: Toughest stainless steel ?

Postby Bodog » Wed May 09, 2018 11:58 am

Ankerson wrote:
Wed May 09, 2018 10:36 am
wrdwrght wrote:
Wed May 09, 2018 10:18 am
Leaving aside the truly tough nitrogen-based H1 and LC200N, and reputedly tough carbon-based steels that either have fallen out of fashion or have yet to gain traction, S30V would be my candidate for "toughest stainless" (once the likely-brittled factory-edge has been reprofiled).

But, truth be told (and I think Jim Ankerson tells it), toughness in typically-tasked folders is not likely to matter beyond hoping for a rolled edge over a chipped one.

FWIW, I have yet to chip either my favored 204P or M390 Spydies or my slightly less-favored XHP or S110V ones in typical use, but I have rolled them occasionally, so they are tough enough for me.

Why Blade Sports competitors choose the steels they do remains a mystery to me. But I would suspect that corrosion-resistance plays a distant second-fiddle to wear- and fracture-resistance, hence the place of M4 and such in the test.

If you remember Strider used S30V for a VERY LONG TIME in all of their knives including their large fixed blades.

They have been some of the most hard tested knives on the market over the years and they held up.

It all comes down to HT and geometry in the end.
I think a lot of the stuff with strider was marketing bs or people who didn't know any better getting excited about things with s30v that any steel could have done.
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Re: Toughest stainless steel ?

Postby Ankerson » Wed May 09, 2018 12:00 pm

Bodog wrote:
Wed May 09, 2018 11:58 am
Ankerson wrote:
Wed May 09, 2018 10:36 am
wrdwrght wrote:
Wed May 09, 2018 10:18 am
Leaving aside the truly tough nitrogen-based H1 and LC200N, and reputedly tough carbon-based steels that either have fallen out of fashion or have yet to gain traction, S30V would be my candidate for "toughest stainless" (once the likely-brittled factory-edge has been reprofiled).

But, truth be told (and I think Jim Ankerson tells it), toughness in typically-tasked folders is not likely to matter beyond hoping for a rolled edge over a chipped one.

FWIW, I have yet to chip either my favored 204P or M390 Spydies or my slightly less-favored XHP or S110V ones in typical use, but I have rolled them occasionally, so they are tough enough for me.

Why Blade Sports competitors choose the steels they do remains a mystery to me. But I would suspect that corrosion-resistance plays a distant second-fiddle to wear- and fracture-resistance, hence the place of M4 and such in the test.

If you remember Strider used S30V for a VERY LONG TIME in all of their knives including their large fixed blades.

They have been some of the most hard tested knives on the market over the years and they held up.

It all comes down to HT and geometry in the end.
I think a lot of the stuff with strider was marketing bs or people who didn't know any better getting excited about things with s30v that any steel could have done.

Or to put it another way S30V is just fine like any of the other steels. ;)

I have tested Striders and believe me I put them through hell personally.

Comes down to HT and geometry.

Also tested CRK's with S30V, same thing.

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Re: Toughest stainless steel ?

Postby Bodog » Wed May 09, 2018 12:06 pm

Ankerson wrote:
Wed May 09, 2018 12:00 pm
Bodog wrote:
Wed May 09, 2018 11:58 am
Ankerson wrote:
Wed May 09, 2018 10:36 am
wrdwrght wrote:
Wed May 09, 2018 10:18 am
Leaving aside the truly tough nitrogen-based H1 and LC200N, and reputedly tough carbon-based steels that either have fallen out of fashion or have yet to gain traction, S30V would be my candidate for "toughest stainless" (once the likely-brittled factory-edge has been reprofiled).

But, truth be told (and I think Jim Ankerson tells it), toughness in typically-tasked folders is not likely to matter beyond hoping for a rolled edge over a chipped one.

FWIW, I have yet to chip either my favored 204P or M390 Spydies or my slightly less-favored XHP or S110V ones in typical use, but I have rolled them occasionally, so they are tough enough for me.

Why Blade Sports competitors choose the steels they do remains a mystery to me. But I would suspect that corrosion-resistance plays a distant second-fiddle to wear- and fracture-resistance, hence the place of M4 and such in the test.

If you remember Strider used S30V for a VERY LONG TIME in all of their knives including their large fixed blades.

They have been some of the most hard tested knives on the market over the years and they held up.

It all comes down to HT and geometry in the end.
I think a lot of the stuff with strider was marketing bs or people who didn't know any better getting excited about things with s30v that any steel could have done.

Or to put it another way S30V is just fine like any of the other steels. ;)

I have tested Striders and believe me I put them through hell personally.

Comes down to HT and geometry.

Also tested CRK's with S30V, same thing.
All good if the work needed is considered. Except S30V. I've had too many bad experiences with the edges on s30v to think otherwise
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Re: Toughest stainless steel ?

Postby Pelagic » Wed May 09, 2018 7:30 pm

wrdwrght wrote:
Wed May 09, 2018 10:18 am
Why Blade Sports competitors choose the steels they do remains a mystery to me. But I would suspect that corrosion-resistance plays a distant second-fiddle to wear- and fracture-resistance, hence the place of M4 and such in the test.
Aren't they big on m4 and 4v? That kinda makes sense doesn't it? I could very well be wrong.
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Re: Toughest stainless steel ?

Postby jpm2 » Wed May 09, 2018 7:44 pm

wrdwrght wrote:
Wed May 09, 2018 10:18 am
Why Blade Sports competitors choose the steels they do remains a mystery to me. But I would suspect that corrosion-resistance plays a distant second-fiddle to wear- and fracture-resistance, hence the place of M4 and such in the test.
They use steels that have the best balance of strength, toughness, impact resistance, and wear resistance for how they're used. In other words they want the least amount of rolling, chipping, and blunting.

But this thread is about the toughest stainless steels.

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Re: Toughest stainless steel ?

Postby Bodog » Wed May 09, 2018 8:51 pm

jpm2 wrote:
Wed May 09, 2018 7:44 pm
wrdwrght wrote:
Wed May 09, 2018 10:18 am
Why Blade Sports competitors choose the steels they do remains a mystery to me. But I would suspect that corrosion-resistance plays a distant second-fiddle to wear- and fracture-resistance, hence the place of M4 and such in the test.
They use steels that have the best balance of strength, toughness, impact resistance, and wear resistance for how they're used. In other words they want the least amount of rolling, chipping, and blunting.

But this thread is about the toughest stainless steels.
According to some S30V and S110V would be a great bladesports chopping steel. The only reason they use lesser steels, ugh, like m4 and 4v, is to keep the masses from knowing what good steel is. There's literally no reason why m4 and 4V could be seen as better user steels than S30V and S110V.

*lighthearted sarcasm off*
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Re: Toughest stainless steel ?

Postby Ankerson » Wed May 09, 2018 9:36 pm

Bodog wrote:
Wed May 09, 2018 8:51 pm
jpm2 wrote:
Wed May 09, 2018 7:44 pm
wrdwrght wrote:
Wed May 09, 2018 10:18 am
Why Blade Sports competitors choose the steels they do remains a mystery to me. But I would suspect that corrosion-resistance plays a distant second-fiddle to wear- and fracture-resistance, hence the place of M4 and such in the test.
They use steels that have the best balance of strength, toughness, impact resistance, and wear resistance for how they're used. In other words they want the least amount of rolling, chipping, and blunting.

But this thread is about the toughest stainless steels.
According to some S30V and S110V would be a great bladesports chopping steel. The only reason they use lesser steels, ugh, like m4 and 4v, is to keep the masses from knowing what good steel is. There's literally no reason why m4 and 4V could be seen as better user steels than S30V and S110V.

*lighthearted sarcasm off*

Hardly.

They don't use them because they aren't NEEDED for one.

M4 and 4V/V4E provide the best balance of what they need.

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Re: Toughest stainless steel ?

Postby Bodog » Wed May 09, 2018 11:35 pm

Ankerson wrote:
Wed May 09, 2018 9:36 pm
Bodog wrote:
Wed May 09, 2018 8:51 pm
jpm2 wrote:
Wed May 09, 2018 7:44 pm
wrdwrght wrote:
Wed May 09, 2018 10:18 am
Why Blade Sports competitors choose the steels they do remains a mystery to me. But I would suspect that corrosion-resistance plays a distant second-fiddle to wear- and fracture-resistance, hence the place of M4 and such in the test.
They use steels that have the best balance of strength, toughness, impact resistance, and wear resistance for how they're used. In other words they want the least amount of rolling, chipping, and blunting.

But this thread is about the toughest stainless steels.
According to some S30V and S110V would be a great bladesports chopping steel. The only reason they use lesser steels, ugh, like m4 and 4v, is to keep the masses from knowing what good steel is. There's literally no reason why m4 and 4V could be seen as better user steels than S30V and S110V.

*lighthearted sarcasm off*

Hardly.

They don't use them because they aren't NEEDED for one.

M4 and 4V/V4E provide the best balance of what they need.
They should start using S110V for skyscrapers, too.

Jim. Your opinion on these things is fine. Seriously. But not everyone finds some of the steels you like to be the best for them. They may actually find, through actual personal experience, that other steels may be better and that some of the steels you like are really bad for them. And that's okay. Most of us are happy that there's a selection and we don't NEED to agree with everything you say regarding any of this stuff. Some things work better for some people, some things don't. It's okay to disagree. It's okay to come to different conclusions. We're talking about knives and sharpening equipment, not the most effective psychiatric therapy or whatever. None of this is a life changer. It's just stuff we all find interesting and we have different opinions on this. Not everything can wholly be agreed upon. And that's okay.
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Re: Toughest stainless steel ?

Postby Ankerson » Thu May 10, 2018 12:52 am

Different steels for different uses, the steel industry is HUGE outside of what they use in knives.

Knife steels are a very small part of it, VERY SMALL.

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Re: Toughest stainless steel ?

Postby jpm2 » Thu May 10, 2018 6:40 pm

Bodog wrote:
Wed May 09, 2018 8:51 pm
jpm2 wrote:
Wed May 09, 2018 7:44 pm
wrdwrght wrote:
Wed May 09, 2018 10:18 am
Why Blade Sports competitors choose the steels they do remains a mystery to me. But I would suspect that corrosion-resistance plays a distant second-fiddle to wear- and fracture-resistance, hence the place of M4 and such in the test.
They use steels that have the best balance of strength, toughness, impact resistance, and wear resistance for how they're used. In other words they want the least amount of rolling, chipping, and blunting.

But this thread is about the toughest stainless steels.
According to some S30V and S110V would be a great bladesports chopping steel. The only reason they use lesser steels, ugh, like m4 and 4v, is to keep the masses from knowing what good steel is. There's literally no reason why m4 and 4V could be seen as better user steels than S30V and S110V.

*lighthearted sarcasm off*
I wonder if any type of stainless has ever been used in a bladesports competition.

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Re: Toughest stainless steel ?

Postby Bodog » Thu May 10, 2018 7:43 pm

jpm2 wrote:
Thu May 10, 2018 6:40 pm
Bodog wrote:
Wed May 09, 2018 8:51 pm
jpm2 wrote:
Wed May 09, 2018 7:44 pm
wrdwrght wrote:
Wed May 09, 2018 10:18 am
Why Blade Sports competitors choose the steels they do remains a mystery to me. But I would suspect that corrosion-resistance plays a distant second-fiddle to wear- and fracture-resistance, hence the place of M4 and such in the test.
They use steels that have the best balance of strength, toughness, impact resistance, and wear resistance for how they're used. In other words they want the least amount of rolling, chipping, and blunting.

But this thread is about the toughest stainless steels.
According to some S30V and S110V would be a great bladesports chopping steel. The only reason they use lesser steels, ugh, like m4 and 4v, is to keep the masses from knowing what good steel is. There's literally no reason why m4 and 4V could be seen as better user steels than S30V and S110V.

*lighthearted sarcasm off*
I wonder if any type of stainless has ever been used in a bladesports competition.
I doubt that they've been used in a competition even partially successfully. I'm sure they've been tested and have failed cutting what needs to be cut to win. Most stainless steels are too weak to stand up to honest hard work and retain an edge for any length of time or else these guys would have already figured it out.

No matter the reason Jim Ankerson gives that devalues the absolutely great steel properties of 4V there's a reason why they didn't use 10V or S110V in the knife Jim helped design. 4V is absolutely an appropriate steel. It's just heads and shoulders above what stainless steels can do in hard work with a multitude of materials to cut in a variety of ways. Jim will say S125V could have done the work but it couldn't have. Not at the same level. It may do one specific thing better than 4V but it simply cannot handle the breadth and scope of work. Whoever chose 4V for Jim's design made the right call, imo, and I'm sure that meant overriding Jim's suggestion of what I'm sure was initially 10V.
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Re: Toughest stainless steel ?

Postby Ankerson » Thu May 10, 2018 7:49 pm

Bodog wrote:
Thu May 10, 2018 7:43 pm
jpm2 wrote:
Thu May 10, 2018 6:40 pm
Bodog wrote:
Wed May 09, 2018 8:51 pm
jpm2 wrote:
Wed May 09, 2018 7:44 pm

They use steels that have the best balance of strength, toughness, impact resistance, and wear resistance for how they're used. In other words they want the least amount of rolling, chipping, and blunting.

But this thread is about the toughest stainless steels.
According to some S30V and S110V would be a great bladesports chopping steel. The only reason they use lesser steels, ugh, like m4 and 4v, is to keep the masses from knowing what good steel is. There's literally no reason why m4 and 4V could be seen as better user steels than S30V and S110V.

*lighthearted sarcasm off*
I wonder if any type of stainless has ever been used in a bladesports competition.
I doubt that they've been used in a competition even partially successfully. I'm sure they've been tested and have failed cutting what needs to be cut to win. Most stainless steels are too weak to stand up to honest hard work and retain an edge for any length of time or else these guys would have already figured it out.

No matter the reason Jim Ankerson gives that devalues the absolutely great steel properties of 4V there's a reason why they didn't use 10V or S110V in the knife Jim helped design. 4V is absolutely an appropriate steel. It's just heads and shoulders above what stainless steels can do in hard work with a multitude of materials to cut in a variety of ways. Jim will say S125V could have done the work but it couldn't have. Not at the same level. It may do one specific thing better than 4V but it simply cannot handle the breadth and scope of work. Whoever chose 4V for Jim's design made the right call, imo, and I'm sure that meant overriding Jim's suggestion of what I'm sure was initially 10V.

For the record CPM 4V was my choice from the beginning for the Spyderco Production version.

CPM 10V was a test blade to see if it could hold up to a lot of abuse and it did with zero issues.

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Re: Toughest stainless steel ?

Postby Bodog » Thu May 10, 2018 8:37 pm

Ankerson wrote:
Thu May 10, 2018 7:49 pm
Bodog wrote:
Thu May 10, 2018 7:43 pm
jpm2 wrote:
Thu May 10, 2018 6:40 pm
Bodog wrote:
Wed May 09, 2018 8:51 pm


According to some S30V and S110V would be a great bladesports chopping steel. The only reason they use lesser steels, ugh, like m4 and 4v, is to keep the masses from knowing what good steel is. There's literally no reason why m4 and 4V could be seen as better user steels than S30V and S110V.

*lighthearted sarcasm off*
I wonder if any type of stainless has ever been used in a bladesports competition.
I doubt that they've been used in a competition even partially successfully. I'm sure they've been tested and have failed cutting what needs to be cut to win. Most stainless steels are too weak to stand up to honest hard work and retain an edge for any length of time or else these guys would have already figured it out.

No matter the reason Jim Ankerson gives that devalues the absolutely great steel properties of 4V there's a reason why they didn't use 10V or S110V in the knife Jim helped design. 4V is absolutely an appropriate steel. It's just heads and shoulders above what stainless steels can do in hard work with a multitude of materials to cut in a variety of ways. Jim will say S125V could have done the work but it couldn't have. Not at the same level. It may do one specific thing better than 4V but it simply cannot handle the breadth and scope of work. Whoever chose 4V for Jim's design made the right call, imo, and I'm sure that meant overriding Jim's suggestion of what I'm sure was initially 10V.

For the record CPM 4V was my choice from the beginning for the Spyderco Production version.

CPM 10V was a test blade to see if it could hold up to a lot of abuse and it did with zero issues.
Then i guess Keffeler should be trying that steel in a new chopper soon.

At what point can or will you admit that its actual performance is the best given the tasks and work most likely associated with and demanded from the knife?

If you can't say the steel is absolutely the best performing steel for that knife then **** the knife. I don't want it if its own designer says it could have been better but isn't because of compromises.

I don't want to hear a beat around the bush answer, either. 4V is either the best steel for the job or it's not and screw other steels. 4V is the best for that knife because of A, B, and C. I've had some wild turkey tonight and don't feel like having smoke blown up my ***.

So far you've said 4V was chosen because it's cheaper and people are stupid. Is that your final answer?


Wait. Disregard all that. Totally off topic. New thread started. Sorry for those following for stainless steels and not why 4V was chosen for a certain knife.
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Re: Toughest stainless steel ?

Postby Ankerson » Thu May 10, 2018 9:26 pm

Bodog wrote:
Thu May 10, 2018 8:37 pm
Ankerson wrote:
Thu May 10, 2018 7:49 pm
Bodog wrote:
Thu May 10, 2018 7:43 pm
jpm2 wrote:
Thu May 10, 2018 6:40 pm

I wonder if any type of stainless has ever been used in a bladesports competition.
I doubt that they've been used in a competition even partially successfully. I'm sure they've been tested and have failed cutting what needs to be cut to win. Most stainless steels are too weak to stand up to honest hard work and retain an edge for any length of time or else these guys would have already figured it out.

No matter the reason Jim Ankerson gives that devalues the absolutely great steel properties of 4V there's a reason why they didn't use 10V or S110V in the knife Jim helped design. 4V is absolutely an appropriate steel. It's just heads and shoulders above what stainless steels can do in hard work with a multitude of materials to cut in a variety of ways. Jim will say S125V could have done the work but it couldn't have. Not at the same level. It may do one specific thing better than 4V but it simply cannot handle the breadth and scope of work. Whoever chose 4V for Jim's design made the right call, imo, and I'm sure that meant overriding Jim's suggestion of what I'm sure was initially 10V.

For the record CPM 4V was my choice from the beginning for the Spyderco Production version.

CPM 10V was a test blade to see if it could hold up to a lot of abuse and it did with zero issues.
Then i guess Keffeler should be trying that steel in a new chopper soon.

At what point can or will you admit that its actual performance is the best given the tasks and work most likely associated with and demanded from the knife?

If you can't say the steel is absolutely the best performing steel for that knife then **** the knife. I don't want it if its own designer says it could have been better but isn't because of compromises.

I don't want to hear a beat around the bush answer, either. 4V is either the best steel for the job or it's not and screw other steels. 4V is the best for that knife because of A, B, and C. I've had some wild turkey tonight and don't feel like having smoke blown up my ***.

So far you've said 4V was chosen because it's cheaper and people are stupid. Is that your final answer?


Wait. Disregard all that. Totally off topic. New thread started. Sorry for those following for stainless steels and not why 4V was chosen for a certain knife.
Actually I always said CPM 4V was the best steel for that type of knife from the beginning..

THAT'S THE REASON WHY I CHOSE IN THE 1ST PLACE.
Bodog wrote:
Thu May 10, 2018 8:37 pm

So far you've said 4V was chosen because it's cheaper and people are stupid. Is that your final answer?
And when did I say that?

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Re: Toughest stainless steel ?

Postby TomAiello » Thu May 10, 2018 9:49 pm

I'll buy it in 4V. And any other steel it comes out in later. :)

I guess that's just because I'm stupid...or something...?

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Re: Toughest stainless steel ?

Postby Ankerson » Thu May 10, 2018 9:51 pm

TomAiello wrote:
Thu May 10, 2018 9:49 pm
I'll buy it in 4V. And any other steel it comes out in later. :)
My thoughts that 4V would be the best choice, also thought about M4.

I didn't want a stainless steel in that model.

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Re: Toughest stainless steel ?

Postby PayneTrain » Fri May 11, 2018 6:11 am

tvenuto wrote:
Sun Apr 29, 2018 12:19 pm
Toughness, then, isn't a property that the steel possesses solely due to its composition. This is just the same as asking: "which stainless steel is harder?"...[and other good points]...
Nailed it (pun?). These questions are practically impossible to answer correctly and the manner in which they are asked. It may be even worse than that. It may be like asking "what's the best sandwich?" Well, who made the sandwich? What's in it? How do you define "best"?

I think the closest we can come is to answer in terms of the most typical manifestation of a steel in knives. That's what we really want, right? Which steel can we whack things in the back yard with and expect it to not break in half, or at the very least, chip? In that case yeah, typically the simpler alloys meet this definition of tougher in the form they come to you in, i.e. finished knife blades. But, of course, as long as you aren't beating on a Maxamet pen knife, you should be fine. :)

To further hammer home (definitely a pun) the point, Charpy tests shouldn't refer to just a steel, but the condition it's in, regarding heat treat, cold work etc. They are useful baseline comparisons, if used properly. If Spyderco tests their heat treated S30V vs their heat treated Elmax, yeah, that's a valid comparison for them to know how to design the blade to perform. Is it useful to us in knowing which knife to buy? My S110V Manix that's chopped through small branches doesn't think so. :)
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Re: Toughest stainless steel ?

Postby Pelagic » Fri May 11, 2018 2:11 pm

Toughness seems to be the most controversial knife steel attribute of them all. It seems like there are 2 groups of people: one group that appreciates and looks for toughness in a blade, and another group that sees it as highly overrated because they "know how to use a knife properly" or "don't use their knife as a prybar". I have definitely seen statements like that made which seems to insinuate that a knife user that appreciates some added toughness doesn't know how to use knives properly. I've seen this many times in all corners of the knife community from BF, to youtube, to several other forums. It seems that Bodog may have witnessed the latter mentality as well and got annoyed at some point. I found it interesting that I had seen this "holier than thou" type mentality so often, yet the steels known for toughness are often the most popular, lol. I personally prefer some toughness. No one is perfect. Sometimes, you can hit a staple, a nail, or something by accident. Depending on what your hobbies are and what you do for a living this could happen often. To me it's always nice to have one of your favorite knives receive less damage when accidents happen. I still carry s110v every day with no issue, but if rust wasn't a problem, I'd be toting m4 more often.
Deadboxhero wrote:
Thu Apr 04, 2019 9:25 pm
8dps is going to be sharper then 15dps.
Nate wrote:
Thu Apr 04, 2019 4:32 pm
You're the lone wolf of truth howling into the winds of ignorance
Doeswhateveraspidercan wrote:
Sat Jun 15, 2019 9:17 pm
You are a nobody got it?

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Re: Toughest stainless steel ?

Postby The Meat man » Fri May 11, 2018 2:34 pm

I also appreciate and value toughness. Like Pelagic says, staples and nails happen sometimes no matter how careful you are, and I'd much rather deal with a rolled edge than a nasty chip.
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