Looks like it's all over but the crying in the UK

[Doc Dan]

1] the Nobility disarmed the serfs in England previously, to keep themselves in power.
2] the government disarmed the people and America had to send arms so England could defend itself in not one, but two world wars.
3] a disarmed populace is no threat to those who wish to be in power and have no one to stop their evil designs.

and

4] Just announced, the new James Bond movie will feature a totally unarmed 007 attempting to single-handedly save his nation, once again, from itself.

[ChrisinHove]

It’s ironic that our government has sent 100’s of worthy servicemen and women to die overseas for the sake of Freedom of other peoples, but are happy to undermine the freedom of their own population for the at best doubtful protection of the unworthy lives of a handful of teenage gangsters.

[TazKristi]

Hey, Everyone:
I realize this is a very touchy subject, but please remember the forum rule of not discussing politics. Discussion about the law (or laws) is important but please leave politics, politicians, etc. out of it (tough to do, I know).

Thanks much.

Kristi

*Edited to add... merged this thread with "Re: Britain going further out of their minds with anti-knife laws?" posted in General Discussion.

[SpyderEdgeForever]

Acknowledged, agreed, and completely understood, Kristi. Thank you.

Everyone, explain this to me using a practical example, please.

Let's say there is a Spyderco collector, user, and enthusiast whom makes his or her home in the heart of London, England, United Kingdom. Let's say this person browses the Spyderco website and decides to purchase themself a brand new Spyderco folder, like the Caribbean. They get together their funds and send it in and it is ready to ship, either direct from Spyderco or from an online knife retailer.

According to the new law, this British Spyderco user will now have to find a local brick and mortar London-area knife store, and have it shipped to them, and the customer has to physically go to the store, show their identification proving they are 18 years or older, in order to receive their knife?

Secondly, can they legally, based on this law, take the purchased knife home and keep it at home only, or is even that banned?
And what of everyday carry? One Hand Opening and Lock Blade Knives are illegal for the Britisher and other UK civilians to carry on their person?

What would Queen Victoria, Winston Churchill, and Robert Peel say to this? (Robert Peel was the founder of Scotland Yard in 1829. In his day every rational British man and woman could easily carry even a bowie knife, dagger, and pistol on his or her person, with zero problems whatsoever).

I read some article that had a modern UK judge saying that lock-bladed knives are "inherently dangerous deadly weapons".

Will the following measure put an end to these laws or would the people who make them find a way around this?:

Get together a million UK citizen signatures on the following declaration: Because great British leaders of the past advocated for the carry of swords, knives, and personal defense items, such as Queen Elizabeth the First, the great UK scientists like Michael Faraday and James Clerk Maxwell, Lord Kelvin and others, Robert Peel, Winston Churchill, and numerous other historical figures, therefore, because England of the past allowed it and had a good stable wholesome society, they need to now overturn this nonsensical, irrational, ridiculous ruling, and allow people to carry knives like they carry knives in Texas, United States of America.

How well would that go over with them?

Basically, transplant the pro knife laws of Texas, USA, to modern UK and England. How can this be done?

[Johnnie1801]

1] the Nobility disarmed the serfs in England previously, to keep themselves in power.
2] the government disarmed the people and America had to send arms so England could defend itself in not one, but two world wars.
3] a disarmed populace is no threat to those who wish to be in power and have no one to stop their evil designs.

and

4] Just announced, the new James Bond movie will feature a totally unarmed 007 attempting to single-handedly save his nation, once again, from itself.

Hi Dan, don't know if you got the memo but England has not been a country since 1707. Labeling everyone from the UK as English (as much as the English believe it) is akin to labeling everyone from Texas as Mexicans. Maybe in the future you could research your facts before posting instead of insulting people.

SEF, these laws have not been voted into law yet, we don't really know how they will be implemented. Sounds like if you order cutlery online then you'll have to pick it up from a post office or parcel pick up point like a newsagent. The worst part is probably the changes to "flick knife laws", again they haven't been defined but could possibly be heading down the Canadian route. As for Churchill he was no "Hero" and the only accomplishment of Queen Victoria was probably laying on her back for 20 years...

[Snorky]

Acknowledged, agreed, and completely understood, Kristi. Thank you.

Everyone, explain this to me using a practical example, please.

Let's say there is a Spyderco collector, user, and enthusiast whom makes his or her home in the heart of London, England, United Kingdom. Let's say this person browses the Spyderco website and decides to purchase themself a brand new Spyderco folder, like the Caribbean. They get together their funds and send it in and it is ready to ship, either direct from Spyderco or from an online knife retailer.

According to the new law, this British Spyderco user will now have to find a local brick and mortar London-area knife store, and have it shipped to them, and the customer has to physically go to the store, show their identification proving they are 18 years or older, in order to receive their knife?

Secondly, can they legally, based on this law, take the purchased knife home and keep it at home only, or is even that banned?
And what of everyday carry? One Hand Opening and Lock Blade Knives are illegal for the Britisher and other UK civilians to carry on their person?

What would Queen Victoria, Winston Churchill, and Robert Peel say to this? (Robert Peel was the founder of Scotland Yard in 1829. In his day every rational British man and woman could easily carry even a bowie knife, dagger, and pistol on his or her person, with zero problems whatsoever).

I read some article that had a modern UK judge saying that lock-bladed knives are "inherently dangerous deadly weapons".

Will the following measure put an end to these laws or would the people who make them find a way around this?:

Get together a million UK citizen signatures on the following declaration: Because great British leaders of the past advocated for the carry of swords, knives, and personal defense items, such as Queen Elizabeth the First, the great UK scientists like Michael Faraday and James Clerk Maxwell, Lord Kelvin and others, Robert Peel, Winston Churchill, and numerous other historical figures, therefore, because England of the past allowed it and had a good stable wholesome society, they need to now overturn this nonsensical, irrational, ridiculous ruling, and allow people to carry knives like they carry knives in Texas, United States of America.

How well would that go over with them?

Basically, transplant the pro knife laws of Texas, USA, to modern UK and England. How can this be done?

Under the present laws in the UK, there are some knives that are already banned outright (gravity knives, automatics or flick knives, etc). You can still own these as a collector, but you cannot buy or sell them at all, or use, carry, or even transport them without a really, really good reason. There are also some places where possession of any knife is outlawed (courtrooms, airport departure lounges). On the street, you are allowed to carry a folding, non-locking knife with an edge length of 3" or less (hence the UKPK). You are allowed to buy, sell, and use any other kind of knife, and even use it on the street if you can demonstrate a good reason for doing so. This has to be more than 'I want to' and has to be a contemporaneous reason (as in "I need this knife today because I am going to a friend's house right now to cut up half a ton of cardboard"). Self-defence has not been classed as a good reason since 1947, and pro-active preparation for self-defence like carrying a knife or a baseball bat is a criminal offence punishable by up to four years in prison. People have been arrested for carrying a Leatherman even though they had a good reason for carrying it (they were at work) because they kept it in a pocket while they went out to lunch!

The laws are also bent out of shape in the UK because if I went bush crafting and took an eight inch Bowie knife and a Dragonfly, the police would be more worried about the Dragonfly because it's a locking knife.

Apparently though, these laws are not strict enough. Now they are looking into withdrawing the right to own banned knives even in private, redefining the term 'flick knife' (which will probably mean at least flipper tabs and AO knives, and might extend to all one-hand-opening knives) and make any such knife retrospectively illegal, and banning any mail-order or online sales of knives in the process.

Given the UK Border Force is known for being able to spydieflick a Buck 110 and class it a 'gravity knife', I don't hold out much hope for a sane result.

[Snorky]

Traditionally, all this legislation was dealt with in a pragmatic, discretionary manner. The police had a series of laws designed to arrest miscreants, which they never applied to regular humans. If you were acting like an idiot, they could pull you in and educate you as to why your idiot ways are not a good plan. Otherwise... good-day to you!

This has all changed. Police no longer have personal discretion when it comes to people carrying knives. If they see someone with a knife and don't investigate or - if needed - arrest, it's disciplinary and potential sacking for the officer. The logic being if they were not engaged in knife crime, they may later go on to engage in knife crime, or that knife will be stolen by people who will commit knife crime.

[Snorky]

Robert Peel's take on this was that the police are there, "to prevent crime and disorder, as an alternative to their repression by military force and severity of legal punishment" and that "the test of police efficiency is the absence of crime and disorder, and not the visible evidence of police action in dealing with them."

The police are no longer capable of meeting either of these demands because politicians...

[The Mastiff]

As for Churchill he was no "Hero"

If you mean he was no sandwich I agree. He is a hero in the traditional sense to many including me.

Hi Dan, don't know if you got the memo but England has not been a country since 1707. Labeling everyone from the UK as English (as much as the English believe it) is akin to labeling everyone from Texas as Mexicans. Maybe in the future you could research your facts before posting instead of insulting people.

I know about the UK. Is England not a country in the UK anymore? It's been a while for me since school but that is what was taught here back then. I seriously don't think Dan is trying to insult anyone. Lighten up.

My grandfather send a bunch of firearms to England before the US became involved. I wonder if they actually got there and what happened to them. They weren't military weapons and only some of the pistols could really be useful. One was a Walther pistol. Still, he felt they might be of help though in reality probably only to a farmer protecting his stores from varmints.

Joe

[shunsui]

Hi Dan, don't know if you got the memo but England has not been a country since 1707. Labeling everyone from the UK as English (as much as the English believe it) is akin to labeling everyone from Texas as Mexicans. Maybe in the future you could research your facts before posting instead of insulting people.

SEF, these laws have not been voted into law yet, we don't really know how they will be implemented. Sounds like if you order cutlery online then you'll have to pick it up from a post office or parcel pick up point like a newsagent. The worst part is probably the changes to "flick knife laws", again they haven't been defined but could possibly be heading down the Canadian route. As for Churchill he was no "Hero" and the only accomplishment of Queen Victoria was probably laying on her back for 20 years...

Hi Johnnie. Actually a lot of us never got the memo, but I'd have to say, yeah, we call it all England half the time, and it appears to be pretty accurate. That's American slang for you, but if you were to educate us on who's insulted I'm sure we'd all appreciate it, and go out of our way in the future to make them feel special.

[Johnnie1801]

As for Churchill he was no "Hero"

If you mean he was no sandwich I agree. He is a hero in the traditional sense to many including me.

Hi Dan, don't know if you got the memo but England has not been a country since 1707. Labeling everyone from the UK as English (as much as the English believe it) is akin to labeling everyone from Texas as Mexicans. Maybe in the future you could research your facts before posting instead of insulting people.

I know about the UK. Is England not a country in the UK anymore? It's been a while for me since school but that is what was taught here back then. I seriously don't think Dan is trying to insult anyone. Lighten up.

My grandfather send a bunch of firearms to England before the US became involved. I wonder if they actually got there and what happened to them. They weren't military weapons and only some of the pistols could really be useful. One was a Walther pistol. Still, he felt they might be of help though in reality probably only to a farmer protecting his stores from varmints.

Joe

Hi Joe, no doubt Churchill was a good leader during the second world war and was the only person to recognise the threat of Germany however he was a flawed person and you should look at his whole political career than just focus on world war 2. His Gallipoli campaign during world war 1 was an outright disaster, he had to resign because of it and it pretty much ended his political career for the foreseeable future. In 1943 he did nothing to stop a famine in Bengal India where an estimated 4 million people died of starvation, instead he made sure food aid coming from Australia was diverted to Europe, his quotes about Ghandi and Indian people in general are not his finest hour. In 1946 he should have won the UK general election by a landslide but he lost to probably one of the most boring politicians ever, the fact is the general public knew what he was and didn't want him. Churchill only ever won one general election and that was in 1951. People tend to use the word "Hero", far too much these days.

As for England it is just a component part of the United Kingdom of Great Britain along with Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. There is no Queen of England, Elizabeth II is the Queen of the United Kingdom. Labeling everyone who comes from the UK as English is naive, it is better just to use the term British. Historically, culturally and genetically we are all different and to call everyone English can be offensive in certain parts. In Belfast for example you can be cheered on one side of the street and have your kneecaps blown off on the other. Essentially it is a United Kingdom but generations of mistrust and dislike are still there on all sides. Just play it safe and call people from the UK British.

To be honest I wouldn't be surprised if your Grandfathers old guns are still around. You can still buy antique weapons at auctions etc legally however criminals have been buying and restoring them and using them on the streets. I seem to recall a murder where someone used an old Smith and Wesson and they traced the serial number and discovered it had originally belonged to a US soldier who had brought it over during the war. I'd hate to think your grandfathers old Walther was being carried by some hood rat in London who cannot pull his pants up.

The biggest problem in the UK is that there have never been any organisations/lobby groups that protect peoples rights on owning guns and now knives. Hand guns were traditionally used by poor people and so when the legislation was imposed to ban handguns in 1995 there was no one to fight it, rich gun owners didn't care because they still had their shotguns and rifles (I wonder if this will change now that they are proposing to ban semi-automatic rifles). You guys in the US are really lucky to have organisations like kniferights fighting for you and if you learn anything from what's happening in the UK then I hope it's to appreciate what they do more and to send them an extra couple of bucks when you can.

[shunsui]

In Belfast for example you can be cheered on one side of the street and have your kneecaps blown off on the other. Essentially it is a United Kingdom but generations of mistrust and dislike are still there on all sides. Just play it safe and call people from the UK British.

OK, British it is.

[Doc Dan]

I stand corrected. I always thought that England was a country in the United Kingdom, and the dominant one at that. I always thought London was in England and that Tennyson was from England. Weird how I got that wrong.

[wrdwrght]

The yin-and-yang of "guilty until proven innocent" vs. "innocent until proven guilty" is probably with us forever, even in the US where the latter point of view is supposed (you know, in The Constitution) to be assured.

I'm not talking here about every American's right (the constitutionally-acknowledged pre-Constitution one) to keep and bear arms. I don't believe the UK or its Commonwealth have this guarantee. I know Canada doesn't. I'm talking due process.

Pushback in the UK rests in due process, even though it is not as concretely defined as in the US.

I just wish that opposition to the former point of view was not so shrill as now. Vilifying the other side (and here I'm including 2A opponents) is hardly an invitation to our side, but that's a different discussion.

[demoncase]

As a long term collector (and contributor here) I'm sad to say this has really nailed the coffin lid down on my knife collecting in general and my Spyderco collecting specifically.

Early last year (but before in truth): First there were the UK Border Agency deciding that "gravity" is now redefined as "Me repeatedly snapping my arm back and forth to get a knife to open" and randomly stopping folding knives of all types.

Then in 2016, UK knife sellers decided to jack prices to levels even me, a guy with a pretty good job, found salty.
Call it the $:£ exchange rate, call it Brexit, call it the UK distributor, call it some combination of all three- it doesn't matter when it's cheaper by £75-150 to buy from overseas.....Provided you are willing to run the gauntlet with UK Customs creative ideas about what is a gravity knife

I could grow my collection, albeit slowly in a more expensive fashion, in a limited way by picking items less likely to get thrown into the fires of Mount Doom. That jaded me a lot.

Then this new law lumbered onto scene.....The UK knife collector community was polarized equally between those who believed that the public consultation would mean this would never become law and those (like me) embittered enough to see the language being used was precisely that of previous bannings- and thus it was a case of if not when.

Some (few) of you may have wondered why haven't been posting pictures of late? This is why: I condensed my 150 knife collection down to 30ish Spydies with sentimental or pure aesthetic value. All the flippers went first as these seem likely to get banned, but then I took the Japanese approach, and held each one in my hand: if it gave me no joy then I put it up for sale. I obviously kept most of the UKPK variants, hoping that against hope for these.

Now I'm faced with the concept that anything with a one handed opening might get caught up in the coming ban if some 'bright spark' in the UK Home Office words this 'modification' to the flick knife law incorrectly.....It might happen. I hope it doesn't

Thus- in essence and practice- my knife collecting days are over

[Unpopular opinion warning]
I have long pointed out to my fellow Knife Knuts in the UK that- had assisted openers been available at the point when switchblades/flick-knives/gravity knives were made illegal in the 1950s then they would have been added to the bill then and there.

Governments and law enforcement take a REALLY dim view of items created specifically to get around their inability to put the spirit of their intent into the letter of the law.....and for me AO flippers were always on borrowed time in places (like the UK) that still get the shivers over mods and rockers rumbling with cheap Italian flickknives on Brighton pier.

The wheels of legislation turn slowly- but they grind exceedingly fine.....and all it takes is a vote-wobbling spike in 'yoof crime' for a politician to go "Hey, here's something that will cost us no votes and little money but will potentially show us to be doing something"
[/unpopular opinion]

For my cousins in the Colonies particularly (but elsewhere)- the UK doesn't have the number of shooters that US has.
We don't have, and never have, the political 'throw weight' on this.
We haven't a 2nd Amendment right to keep or bear arms- indeed, any item you carry (or are considered to be carrying) for the specific purpose of self defence (even that which is non-lethal) automatically becomes a prohibited weapon with an associated jail sentence.
We can't even carry or own pepper spray.
Those familiar with the UKPK saga will know we already have some pretty restrictive knife laws.....but it's coming to a pretty pass when a Roadie means I might sweat about getting stopped and searched

We knife collectors are a tiny minority within that already tiny minority. We are politically irrelevant.

No mainstream UK politician would ever, ever be caught being pro-gun.
No UK politician is ever, ever, ever x10 be pro-knife.

And I can still buy a 7" chef's knife for £1 in the Poundshop on any UK high street- or if I'm the criminal type, just shoplift it.

[The Mastiff]

Hi Joe, no doubt Churchill was a good leader during the second world war and was the only person to recognise the threat of Germany however he was a flawed person and you should look at his whole political career than just focus on world war 2. His Gallipoli campaign during world war 1 was an outright disaster, he had to resign because of it and it pretty much ended his political career for the foreseeable future. In 1943 he did nothing to stop a famine in Bengal India where an estimated 4 million people died of starvation, instead he made sure food aid coming from Australia was diverted to Europe, his quotes about Ghandi and Indian people in general are not his finest hour. In 1946 he should have won the UK general election by a landslide but he lost to probably one of the most boring politicians ever, the fact is the general public knew what he was and didn't want him. Churchill only ever won one general election and that was in 1951. People tend to use the word "Hero", far too much these days.

Without doubt he was imperfect just as the rest of humanity. He gets the hero title for his leadership during WW2. That is it but it is enough. I know of a Korean war marine that won every medal except our MOH. Some think he should of got that. He was a terrible peace time person and was killed in a shoot out with State police after a robbery later in his life. He deserved to be shot. He is still a hero for his actions during the war but that does not mean he shouldn't have been shot. That is how I feel about it anyways. War and peace are completely different things.People can be both heroes and criminals in their life.

Joe