✓ Spyderco’s knives are assembled to exacting tolerances by trained technicians, so we discourage end users from disassembling or adjusting our knives. If a knife has been disassembled and reassembled correctly—so as to maintain its proper mechanical function—this warranty remains in full effect. However, if a knife has been disassembled and reassembled in such a way that, in Spyderco’s sole determination, the proper mechanical function of the knife has been compromised, it is no longer covered by warranty.
Okay well I can’t speak for others but disassembly of these knives is within my skill set.
I think we have to look at this whole thing in a broader light, it's NOT just about a handfull of people here.
It's obviously a huge issue or Sal wouldn't have started the thread in the 1st place.
Daveho wrote:Your car, iPhone and a pocket knife are kinda in different leagues of complexity...or maybe my knife is missing some features
Absolutely. So why shouldn't I be allowed to work on my simple pocketknife?
I don't want to derail the thread here, but the problem with the modern goods I mentioned isn't their complexity, it's that the end user is ACTIVELY prevented from or using them as they see fit or getting them serviced by anyone other than the original manufacturer. Apple won't even release a spec sheet of their products to legitimate repair shops. Printer companies sued to stop the sale of cartridge refilling kits (later refuted by the Supreme Court, amazingly enough!). There are even tractor manufacturers claiming that when their customers purchase one of their machines, they merely own a 'licence to operate the vehicle' and therefore cannot service or modify it themselves. Ultimately, more "unfixable" discarded goods means more sales.
To be clear, I am NOT suggesting that is what is at play here with Spyderco. As you point out, a pocket knife and a cell phone are vastly different things. I would just hate to see this pernicious attitude towards ownership infect one of my favorite brands.
For Sal to actually bring this up in the 1st place it's obviousy a major problem as he doesn't normally start threads like this.
Ankerson wrote:For Sal to actually bring this up in the 1st place it's obviousy a major problem as he doesn't normally start threads like this.
I wouldn't take his concerns lightly.
Haha what about my impassioned spiel makes you think I'm taking this lightly? I think the dealers have a responsibility here to step up and refuse to refund merchandise that has been tampered with. Maybe include a notice with new knives asking that they be sent in to warranty rather than disassembled straight out of the box. Failing all that, maybe the warranty policies need to be adjusted.
The solutions you suggested are the ones I find offensive: red loctite, soft or proprietary screws, etc
HammerHill wrote:I don't want to derail the thread here, but the problem with the modern goods I mentioned isn't their complexity, it's that the end user is ACTIVELY prevented from or using them as they see fit or getting them serviced by anyone other than the original manufacturer. ... Ultimately, more "unfixable" goods means more sales, or more work for an exclusive (and expensive) service department.
Yep, so much this. So many modern consumer goods are based in 'planned obsolescence', or are designed for the short run, which may be good for sales, but it abjectly hostile to the end user. Some knife companies operate that way, either due to using low durability parts, poor service divisions, or impossible-to-maintain construction which can turn 'dirty' into 'disposable', but Spyderco has largely been built to last. Although many in the thread don't seem to mind it, I sure hope Spyderco doesn't go the route of stupid screws and permanent threadlocker. There's certainly a middle path here, and I hope that Spyderco is able to find similar paths to those which have allowed other makers to remain in business as long as they have.
And, for what it's worth, if it's the choice between $5 more per knife to cover service and a functioning parts division, or selling a knife that is designed in an end-user-hostile way to prevent maintenance, I'll pay the price. But I really hope that Spyderco finds a way to handle this that's respectful of the end user, and doesn't alienate the folks who want tools they can trust for the long game.
Don't make rules you cannot enforce, I think is the first rule.
So the biggest issue is returning a knife as new for a full refund, correct? We are not talking about actual warranty work, or defective product?
If that is the case, then I am sure there is a number associated with what this process costs Spyderco. And I am confident that folks with higher brain power than myself at Spyderco have thought of this, but here are the options apparent to me,
- distribute this cost among all product or subset of problematic products
- lock all knives down so this can never happen
- restocking fee - cost to get the knife to Spyderco in order to evaluate it and certify it as new, and back on shelf of a dealer. This takes time, and judging how some get their panties in a bunch if the postal carrier is a day late, this will hurt.
I am on-board for one of those, and jumping ship for the other two.
anycal wrote:
- restocking fee - cost to get the knife to Spyderco in order to evaluate it and certify it as new, and back on shelf of a dealer. This takes time, and judging how some get their panties in a bunch if the postal carrier is a day late, this will hurt.
This is the first novel idea I've seen in the thread that makes sense to me. Obviously Spyderco can't control dealer return policies, but if they were to charge them a restocking fee to cover the time & cost of dealing with all these bad returns, the dealers would be incentivised to send back as few as possible and might start cracking down on return fraud.
Generally, I dislike it when companies purposely go out of their way to make a product non-serviceable to the end user.
But that's only because I'm generally my own warranty. It just makes it harder to fix, but ultimately, I still usually wind up getting the job done. I fix everything I can, whether the manufacturer intended it or not, if it's gone out of the typical 30-day to one year warranty. But that's only because I have the engineering/electronic/mechanical skills, and the tools to properly do so. 98% of the people out there don't, to put it bluntly. The problem is that half (or more) of that 98% thinks they do.
Perfect recent example, trolling motor on one of my club's fishing boats went out on us. I know exactly what's wrong, and it's maybe a $2 part on the main board that needs to be replaced. But the manufacturer potted the entire board in epoxy 1" deep. No getting that part off to replace it without really messing up other components around it. :mad: Solution? Replace the entire board myself to the tune of ~$100, or pay a service center to do the same job for ~$250. A brand new motor goes for ~$375... :rolleyes:
anycal wrote:....here are the options apparent to me
- distribute this cost among all product or subset of problematic products
- lock all knives down so this can never happen
- restocking fee
Again, there is a 4th solution: use a seal to be broken if the end-user services the knife him/herself. Only a sealed knife is under warranty. Voila.
ferider wrote:Again, there is a 4th solution: use a seal to be broken if the end-user services the knife him/herself. Only a sealed knife is under warranty. Voila.
Sure, but which part do you propose sealing? The box? The plastic wrap? Sticker between the liners? Something other?
Edit: Come to think of it, seal on the box would probably be the easiest/cheapest. That way, if you have buyer's remorse and want to return it, and it is sealed, it is still new and can be restocked. And if you receive a knife with a seal, you know it hasn't been opened before. Probably need one on each side of the box. Or, seal the plastic bag, like they do some electronics. That way you only need one sticker. Sounds like a good idea.
Last edited by anycal on Fri Feb 23, 2018 5:42 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Here, I'm trying to do my part to raise awareness of just how unpleasant returns after disassembly are, and to address some of the other things brought up here. I know not everybody agrees with my feelings on disassembly, and not everybody sees anti-disassembly policies as user-hostile, but hopefully the PSA helps the true root of the problem, bad behavior, maybe a little bit:
ferider wrote:Again, there is a 4th solution: use a seal to be broken if the end-user services the knife him/herself. Only a sealed knife is under warranty. Voila.
Sure, but which part do you propose sealing? The box? The plastic wrap? Sticker between the liners? Something other?
Edit: Come to think of it, seal on the box would probably be the easiest/cheapest. That way, if you have buyer's remorse and want to return it, and it is sealed, it is still new and can be restocked. And if you receive a knife with a seal, you know it hasn't been opened before. Probably need one on each side of the box. Or, seal the plastic bag, like they do some electronics. That way you only need one sticker. Sounds like a good idea.
Was thinking of sticker between liners or a cover on the pivot screw or similar. But sticker on box or plastic wrap would work for me personally, too.
And Nick - I'm a fan :)
Last edited by ferider on Fri Feb 23, 2018 5:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I find it unacceptable that people are buying them, pulling apart and then returning for refund! If there is a problem with it on arrival, return as is. If you are playing for the sake of the hobby, suck it up and keep it or sell 2nd hand! Purely selfish and I bet the guys doing this would be the first to cry Foul..
I doubt many of us really know what its like to run such a large company and have the stresses and responsibilites going with that...
Typical of the bad eggs causing problems for the good eggs.
I find it unacceptable that people are buying them, pulling apart and then returning for refund! If there is a problem with it on arrival, return as is. If you are playing for the sake of the hobby, suck it up and keep it or sell 2nd hand! Purely selfish and I bet the guys doing this would be the first to cry Foul..
I doubt many of us really know what its like to run such a large company and have the stresses and responsibilites going with that...
Typical of the bad eggs causing problems for the good eggs.
Agreed. It's the same as fraud and theft.
My friend got a great deal on an open box Sony 70" TV. Some douche bought it for the Superbowl and returned it the next day. Same as stealing $900 from that store.
Hey guys. I’m late to the party on this discussion. I’ll soon be getting my first ever Spyderco with the PM2. The whole time planning on RIT dyeing the camo scales to make it mine. Obviously I’ll take it apart to do so. I realize it’s mine forever doing this. Question is now if I strip a screw (now or in future with maintenance) or whatever can I not even send it back to the factory to fix it? I fully accept if I have to pay a fee for this but is this even a possibility? Not sure if disassembly means cut off from Spyderco services now.......
Lancerpt wrote:Hey guys. I’m late to the party on this discussion. I’ll soon be getting my first ever Spyderco with the PM2. The whole time planning on RIT dyeing the camo scales to make it mine. Obviously I’ll take it apart to do so. I realize it’s mine forever doing this. Question is now if I strip a screw (now or in future with maintenance) or whatever can I not even send it back to the factory to fix it? I fully accept if I have to pay a fee for this but is this even a possibility? Not sure if disassembly means cut off from Spyderco services now.......
You’ll pay shipping to and from Spyderco plus any repairs charges. Spyderco does not deny anyone service for a fee. Some issues are not fixable. For instance, broken blade.
I welcome dialog, as long as it remains cordial, constructive and is conducted in a civilized manner. - Titanic: Blood & Steel
You can fool some of the people all of the time, and all of the people some of the time, but you cannot fool all of the people all of the time. - Abraham Lincoln
The onus of the issue raised by Sal should be on the dealers specially now that they’re making more money on Spyderco Knives.
I welcome dialog, as long as it remains cordial, constructive and is conducted in a civilized manner. - Titanic: Blood & Steel
You can fool some of the people all of the time, and all of the people some of the time, but you cannot fool all of the people all of the time. - Abraham Lincoln
I can actually picture you sitting down with your hardware store hand tools and disassembling your folding knife, cleaning it or adjusting it and successfully putting it back together. I can’t see you doing much of anything with your iPhone except rendering it inoperable.
Apple certainly won’t fix that broken phone for free and a knife maker shouldn’t be expected to do that for a damaged knife either.
“…pernicious attitude…"
per·ni·cious
pərˈniSHəs
adjective
having a harmful effect, especially in a gradual or subtle way.
Sorry. Can’t see where Spyderco's or Apple's policies are harmful
I used to tune my old Porsche with a cheap carb sync device, a screw driver, a couple of metric wrenches and a light bulb. Those days are long gone and not likely to return.
Overheard at the end of the ice age, “We’ve been having such unnatural weather.”
I've read without registering here for a bit, but figured now was time to make an account. The thread title and much conversation is about taking knives apart in general. The main point Sal seems to make is that people who disassemble knives, reassemble them (poorly or not) and then return them cost the company, and then future customers, money. I read through most of the replies, and I do not believe anybody is defending this behavior. If you take something apart or sharpen it, or in any way modify it from the way it was delivered, and then return it, you are a scumbag.
Scumbags are probably not going to be deterred from their behavior by suggestions, stickied threads, or shaming. Possibly education will help some people who just never realized it was a jerk move, or people who sort of realized it but had some weak rationalization for it in their mind. Nick's video is great, and maybe a two-second sheet of paper at the start of his Spyderco (or any) disassembly videos would help, like he used to do for the "this voids your warranty" and still does for the "this manufacturer gave me the knife free". But this scumbag behavior is totally on the person engaging in it.
Honestly, I feel like once you've taken it out of the package, it is used. I would not want to pay new pricing for something someone carried for a few days and decided they didn't like. But that is neither the direct point, nor the one implied by the "Taking apart knives" title.
I can understand that most knives will never actually need to be disassembled. I have/have had old Western and Ulster knives that can't be disassembled. But they also can't be sent in for warranty work anymore, as the companies no longer exist. The Ulster was a piece of crap with terrible action, and I ultimately gave it away. Possibly if it wasn't pinned I could have improved it. Or maybe ruined it, who knows, but I'd have happily taken that risk. I'm sure Spyderco isn't factoring them not existing into their product plans, but as a buyer I may be.
I don't have a huge knife collection. But I also don't have just one knife, or just the knives I need. I'm maybe a 90-95%er? I have three Manix 2's. One of them is a lightweight. That means it is pinned and I can not take it apart. I'll probably never need to. In spite of preferring a knife I can disassemble, I spent a non-trivial amount of money on one I can't. People buy expensive versions of GEC's or Northwoods or Buck 110's knowing they are pinned and can't be disassembled. That's a viable approach to ensuring knives are sent back to the manufacturer for any service. Me personally, I don't own many traditionals and the only Buck I own has screws holding it together.
One of the Manix 2's I have had some side to side blade play. When closed I could grab the blade spine and wiggle it towards the scales and feel it click slightly. I'm sure Spyderco would have done a bang-up job fixing it and shipping it back to me. Or maybe they would consider it well within their tolerances and shipped it back saying it's no worry, and if so they might be right that it will function a million years as is. But I fixed it myself because I'd prefer it not have that little wobble, not to risk shipping carriers losing it, etc. I never would have sent it back if it was pinned, I would have just sucked it up. It would factor into my next buying decision for sure, though, but not necessarily rule out any next purchase (just as pinned construction didn't rule out my M2LW purchase).
I feel like if Spyderco does something to prevent or hamper disassembly, it will cause some buyers, myself included to second guess future purchases. By the same token, doing nothing and passing on the cost of scumbag behavior will cause some buyers to second guess future purchases. For me personally, say the knife cost is such that it can be sold at $100 MAP either way. In one case it will cost me $120 for the knife and covering the loss created by scumbags. I feel personally I'd be more likely to buy that knife than an otherwise identical knife that was $100 but pinned together. Maybe the additional cost is higher than that or lower, and more or fewer people will be put off by it.
Having said that, if Spyderco can reduce that extra $20 to something lower through some approach that cuts down on scumbaggery without in any way changing the product they offer to the rest of us, I would applaud that effort.
A slight aside, though, is that Spyderco already trusts me to turn a Torx screw on my knives. Because they attached a pocket clip to them with Torx screws (often with thread locker), but gave me 1-3 other places to move the clip to if I so desire. If you really do not want end users to turn a screw, perhaps look into a different attachment mechanism? Or maybe a simpler and uglier fastener like a small phillips, where the expectation isn't that as a typical owner I already own specialty knife tools. That said, I very much like the look of the countersunk screws on Golden models, so I hope it never comes to that.
Last edited by guywithopinion on Sat Feb 24, 2018 9:49 am, edited 1 time in total.
MichaelScott wrote:
Apple certainly won’t fix that broken phone for free and a knife maker shouldn’t be expected to do that for a damaged knife either.
Certainly, I agree. But I should be ABLE to take the knife (or phone for that matter) apart, because it's mine. If I can fix it or improve it enough to postpone its eventual replacement, good for me, good for the planet. If I ruin it, that's on me, too, and I pay to repair or replace it.
Not okay:
- Manufacturers adopting end-user-hostile practices: proprietary screws, obstructing third-party service (as Apple does).
- End users fraudulently returning used goods to retailers as new or demanding free warranty service for misuse (including improper assembly).
EDIT: I'll say this again - I'm NOT trying to criticise current Spyderco policies here. What I could criticise them for at this point I don't even know - I've been well-served by their warranty in the past (a locksticky Sage 2, years ago), and applaud their recent pledge to use non-permanent threadlocker. I am just responding to others in the thread who are suggesting that the solution to the problem of fraudulent returns is that Spyderco begin locking users out of their knives, which to me would feel like a huge betrayal. Not to mention that the problem would probably still persist, just with more stripped screws.
Last edited by HammerHill on Fri Feb 23, 2018 8:43 pm, edited 3 times in total.
