Is it just me... ?

[demoncase]

Demoncase might be right there: assembly difficulty

A liner or frame lock can be assembled with all pin/standoff in place and stacked one layer after another (i.e. start from one side to fully stacked up the the other side). It’s easier to train new guy to do that (just follow the diagram/lay out.

A lockback requires either very strong structure (i.e. M2 Lockback) to allow it stacked like that and always a risk of the spring or any part under tension slipping and off they go missing.
OR
Install the lockbar & its pivot last. May not always work if the pivot is not screwed like Endura but floating pin like Military new stop pin. This will require blade (and washer, etc.) last that has to use 3rd hand depressing the lockbar when inserting the blade.

Or some other complications :cool:

Probably why.

That's assuming everything goes together exactly right first time- even with fine manufacturing tolerances things will need tweaking to run right....and that means having to open her up again and do some fettling to fit.

Saw it happen too often in Aerospace servo build (where normal tolerances are +/- 100,000th of an inch!)- you get a batch of parts and they are all at the top end of the tolerance band? They won't fit together due to the delight called 'tolerance stack'. You need to either go find some from another batch closer to the mid tolerance band or break out the lapping paste.

You get the inverse problem- everything at bottom end?- and now they fly together but you've got play. Oh goody.

All the above will still happen with a frame lock or liner lock of course- but it's all easier to deal with than a backlock because of the construction.

[tonijedi]

I like backlocks: easy to use, ambidextrous, strong.
My phone doesn't like them so much as it seems to prefer "back licks" much more.

[rwponline]

I started with backlocks in the 80s and then chased the locking system fads for a couple of decades (I'm an engineer, and enjoy the mechanisms). A couple of years ago I tried carrying a different blade locking system every day to work, and ended up going over a month before a lock was duplicated.

These days I pretty much only carry backlocks, with the occasional slipjoint, Balisong, or linerlock flipper to fiddle with.

Thank you Spyderco for continuing to produce exceptional mid-backlock folders.

[Jazz]

Hey Jazz,

How many knife companies you know of making high quality close tolerance lock backs?

sal

I'm going to say 2 - Spyderco and C. S., and like I said, thank you. :cool: I have numerous Delicas, Enduras, Dragonflies, Natives, Calys, the back lock Manix (what a fine knife), etc., and I enjoy them all. Perfectly simple to use, strong, ambidextrous, and familiar. Just looking at all new offerings, not necessarily Spyderco, I see so many liner locks. What's you opinion on them?

[sal]

I think all locks are good, if made correctly. I think back-locks have a more effective self close, if made well.

sal

[Jazz]

Yes, the self close is very important to me. For what it's worth, I have my large Wegner out for back pocket carry. I don't use it much because the liner is almost all the way over. If it was a back lock, I'd carry it a lot. It's a top notch design. I do have a Milli, which is actually surprisingly strong for a liner lock, I have the Mantra, Sage frame lock, and Cat.

[ThePeacent]

I think all locks are good, if made correctly. I think back-locks have a more effective self close, if made well.

sal

they are, and that's one of the reasons I (we) like them over others. All but one of my Spydercos are back-locks, a total of 11 folders.
I am not Jazz but I too believe that only Cold Steel has this lock type as nailed down as Spyderco does, be it Tri-ad locks or their older locks. Again, out of the 23 CS I own only 2 are not back-locks.

thanks Sal for making them good, reliable and easy to operate.
Makes them a preferable option for me above other brands/knives :spyder:

[Whitetail addict]

Outside of Spyderco, Cold Steel and a couple of Bucks, seems like backlocks have very little market representation.

Exactly.

I might also add that most of the knives I see have flippers. Really, I find the flipper tab is just in the way. Very few are designed so it's not. You can't comfortably choke up with that appendage sticking out there, and the Spyderhole is more than adequate to open a blade fast and secure (obviously on Spyderco models).

The back/mid lock is by far my favorite, obviously, but more than touting it as best, what I'm saying I'm more than a little tired of all the liner/frame locks.

Honestly My favourite lock type is framelock, back locks are long down the list.

Not dissin' you, but can you tell me why you like frame locks, bro?

I will say, thank you Sal and Eric for all the back locks. I thoroughly enjoy them, and you design them perfectly.

I just find it the best lock for me, just have a fondness towards it, not sure why. Always had great lock up and zero bladeplay with every framelock I have owned.

[Igi964]

Yes. It's just your personal preference.
Frame lock and liner lock are far more popular. As mentioned before, they are easy to make, easy to operate, reliable, NO blade play. Titanium is a high end material and frame lock is first choice when it comes to locks made in titanium.
I personally don't like back lock at all. Can't stand the blade play. I tried it many times and I always end up disappointed and sold the knife:( Also the strong self close feature is a bit dangerous IMHO. Easy to "forget" your fingers in the path of the blade:(

[vivi]

Yes. It's just your personal preference.
Frame lock and liner lock are far more popular. As mentioned before, they are easy to make, easy to operate, reliable, NO blade play. Titanium is a high end material and frame lock is first choice when it comes to locks made in titanium.
I personally don't like back lock at all. Can't stand the blade play. I tried it many times and I always end up disappointed and sold the knife:( Also the strong self close feature is a bit dangerous IMHO. Easy to "forget" your fingers in the path of the blade:(

I've seen a lot of liner and frame locks with play, and a lot of backlocks / tri-ad locks with zero.

[standy99]

Funny as a mate and I were talking about the same thing fishing the other day.

He called it the Chris Reeve conspiracy. After a few releases of expensive knives ( no need to name them ) the rest of the world ( and China ) thought that's what people will spend more money on and boom frame locks are in at the moment.

Myself I couldn't care what type of lock

[ThePeacent]

Yes. It's just your personal preference.
Frame lock and liner lock are far more popular. As mentioned before, they are easy to make, easy to operate, reliable, NO blade play. Titanium is a high end material and frame lock is first choice when it comes to locks made in titanium.
I personally don't like back lock at all. Can't stand the blade play. I tried it many times and I always end up disappointed and sold the knife:( Also the strong self close feature is a bit dangerous IMHO. Easy to "forget" your fingers in the path of the blade:(

I've seen a lot of liner and frame locks with play, and a lot of backlocks / tri-ad locks with zero.

that's what I was thinking. >70% of my liner/framelocks have blade play or developed it soon, but my TriAds and most Spyderco lockbacks are rock solid, absolutely no play whatsoever :confused:

[xceptnl]

Backlocks are harder to make accurately.

As i was reading the comments to Jazz's OP this thought kept popping into my head. The geometry of a backlock/midlock is much less forgiving to machining and fitment errors as opposed to framelocks and liner locks. I know I have designed several blades but never made one myself, however I always gravitated towards a radiused tang like the luner and framlocks use. It seems to be easier to just increase lockbar pressure to move into a more advanced position, even if the leading edge of the tang is machined incorrectly.

[anagarika]

Yes. It's just your personal preference.
Frame lock and liner lock are far more popular. As mentioned before, they are easy to make, easy to operate, reliable, NO blade play. Titanium is a high end material and frame lock is first choice when it comes to locks made in titanium.
I personally don't like back lock at all. Can't stand the blade play. I tried it many times and I always end up disappointed and sold the knife:( Also the strong self close feature is a bit dangerous IMHO. Easy to "forget" your fingers in the path of the blade:(

I've seen a lot of liner and frame locks with play, and a lot of backlocks / tri-ad locks with zero.

that's what I was thinking. >70% of my liner/framelocks have blade play or developed it soon, but my TriAds and most Spyderco lockbacks are rock solid, absolutely no play whatsoever :confused:

IME, more liner / frame lock with vertical (lockup) play than lockbacks. However, I have experienced also play on lockbacks, based on memory, not that many (compared to the population sampled). No Triad with play.
Both can be tweaked and improved (check Steve Rice lock adjustment video). I still prefer lockbacks :cool:

[bh49]

Hey Jazz,

How many knife companies you know of making high quality close tolerance lock backs?

sal

Spyderco. It is enough for me.

I think it is largely fueled by the flipper craze.

+1
Frankly, I do not care about both.

[timlara]

I guess I basically agree with Sal - I am pretty neutral on lock type overall, as long as it is well-executed.

I would never use a folding knife for any task hard-use enough that there would be any question of the lock failing. I'd just choose a fixed blade or a pry tool, etc in those situations, so for me, lock strength, although it's a cool and interesting engineering problem, doesn't really matter that much to me in practice. Any well-made lock is "good enough".

The bigger factors for me are:

• How difficult is the lock to disengage? (on purpose - again, not doing any tasks where I am worried about accidental unlocking)
  • A "bad" liner lock to me would be one with a cutout too shallow to comfortably get your finger on the release tab.
  • A "bad" back/mid lock would have a spring that is too strong, requiring too much pressure to release.
  • A "bad" framelock would have lock stick.
• Does the lock make the action of the knife unpleasant? (gritty, too stiff, etc)

Other than those things, if the lock is reliable and well-executed (smooth operation, no blade play, etc) then I really don't care too much about what type of lock it is. I definitely focus more on the overall design and materials of the knife.

In fact, these days, I'm actually carrying slipjoints more and more, as the quickest and easiest lock to use for light-duty EDC is actually no lock at all! :)

[bh49]

I think all locks are good, if made correctly. I think back-locks have a more effective self close, if made well.

sal

Certainly. But I really missing my click, when I am using Memory and Hungarian. Nothing is closing better than my Natives and Calys :)