MAP policy change? 35%

Discuss Spyderco's products and history.
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Re: MAP policy change? 35%

Postby MacLaren » Sat Dec 02, 2017 1:33 pm

Again, for me it just boils down to trust. If that's what it takes, then that's what it takes. I would much rather Spyderco keep the quality and even more so importantly ( to me anyways) be able to be good to their employees. Ya really have to take employees into consideration. Imo anyways.

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Re: MAP policy change? 35%

Postby mastiff » Sat Dec 02, 2017 1:58 pm

wsdavies wrote:So you think dealers should be happy to carry and promote the brand to make $5 on a $100? Many dealers don't bother selling Spyderco as there is not enough meat on the bone. This is not greed, it's economic reality. As I was saying, I sell Spyderco because I love the brand and they are what got me into knives. From a purely business perspective it's not very enticing especially since there are so many fakes out there that undercut the legit seller. I didn't ask for a MAP increase of 5% but I sure am glad they are doing it as it will allow me to keep selling the knives I love. I really respect the fact that Spyderco cares enough to take care of dealers like us that have been loyally carrying water for them for years. As I said before this is a company that still has a soul. Here's a story for you. When I 1st started selling knives I got a knock on the door one Sunday night...I got served as part of a lawsuit against a knife company (not Spyderco) Some joker cut himself using the knife I sold him as a pry-bar and was suing me, the knife designer, distributors and knife company. I just had started and didn't have liability insurance. I called the knife company and they wouldn't even answer me back to give me any advice. I couldn't even get any lawyers to call me back. So I persisted and called my sales rep and said this isn't right, someone from the company needs to call me. So finally the lawyer from their insurance company contacted me and put me in touch with an attorney. Cost me $8,000 to get written off the case. $8,000 on a knife I made ten bucks on. I couldn't believe a company I worked my butt off selling and promoting their brand wouldn't even call me back. So, having dealt with many knife companies since then I can tell you that Spyderco are decent people and worth supporting as are many of us small dealers who work very hard to take care of people.
mastiff wrote:So Spyderco gets nothing and the dealers get everything. If Spyderco was getting more then yeah, but just the dealers get more? That's sad in a way I can't even express. Could you tell us which dealers pushed for this?
So customers need to pay more for Spyderco products because you made the mistake of not having insurance? Before I ever lifted a bay door I had liability insurance. That's a "first things first" sort of thing. I had one of my guys lose a bolt down an intake and destroy a new motor. I had to eat that $5000 motor. So I should have raised prices on my customers because of my mistake of hiring someone that wasn't very diligent when it came to their job. It's called responsibility.

So for the last 30 years there was no problem selling Spydies but suddenly now it's become a losing proposition? Riiiiight :rolleyes: Knifeworks used to sell Spydies at 55% (less than 2 years ago). That means a PM2 with an MSRP of 209.95 cost around $115 to $116. That means every knife they sold they took a loss of $4.97 by your math. So you stuck with Spyderco even though you lost $4.97 a PM2 too? Why would anyone sell something that they lost so much money on? Nobody loves any company that much. That would be very bad business indeed if not outright madness! The big boys have even more lights, more employees, with bigger shops to heat, and actual warehouses! I bet they say that they won't hit break even until around the time MAP runs smack dab into MSRP ;) How they survived all these years is a question the world may never be able to answer? It'll be like finding Atlantis or El Dorado!

A ton of small dealers had to dump BM, but none of the big dealers, strange? If MAP is so much better for smaller dealers then why did so many drop BM? Both my local sporting goods store and the local gun shop had to drop BM and they run a 15% MAP. Just weird, huh? I have yet to find a dealer that doesn't carry Spyderco, even before MAP (that includes small dealers). If it was such a loser for all those small guys then why did everyone carry them pre MAP?

So I'll just support Spyderco and NK (he gave us fair warning when nobody else did) and punish the dealers the only way I know how, with a boycott of all dealers except National Knives. If we get a list of the dealers that pushed this through then the ones that didn't will be added to my list. I'll do my very best to convince everyone I know and every customer that walks through my door to do the same. I'll also convince my colleagues at the local Small Business Owners Association meetings to do the same. I know I'm a nobody, I don't count, and I won't make a difference. It's not the first time I've heard that. Hopefully this gives NK a great Christmas! Thanks for pointing me in the right direction Sal!

Most guys I see comment here don't realize that not a dime of this is going to Spyderco per Sal. They keep saying things like-"Well the Spyderco employees and the factory should get a raise". Except they get a nothing.

You think it's bad now fellas, wait till MAP hits 15% like BM or even 10%. Or just MSRP. I get the feeling that this will be a yearly or bi-yearly occurrence. That's where this goes ladies and gentlemen. It's fine though. Amazon and Walmart will put all the big dealers out of business that destroyed the small guys at some point in the near future, they'll get to know what it's like to be on the receiving end soon enough. I know I know, I'm a vindictive evil old man. I abhor price fixing and small businesses being destroyed with it is all. I am what I am.

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Re: MAP policy change? 35%

Postby Wrathhog » Sat Dec 02, 2017 2:10 pm

MAP goes against everything free market stands for. For as many dealers that benefit from it, that many or more are harmed by it. I despise the concept and I know others don't share my opinion. This has nothing to do with Spyderco as I will continue to buy their knives and will do so below MAP pricing.

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Re: MAP policy change? 35%

Postby Liquid Cobra » Sat Dec 02, 2017 2:18 pm

mastiff wrote:A ton of small dealers had to dump BM, but none of the big dealers, strange? If MAP is so much better for smaller dealers then why did so many drop BM? Both my local sporting goods store and the local gun shop had to drop BM and they run a 15% MAP. Just weird, huh? I have yet to find a dealer that doesn't carry Spyderco, even before MAP (that includes small dealers). If it was such a loser for all those small guys then why did everyone carry them pre MAP?
I have found the exact opposite of this to be true. The vast majority of b&m stores I have visited carry some form of benchmade and very little Spyderco if at all. This is true here in most of the stores in Canada and I’ve also found it to be true with the majority of the stores I’ve visited in the U.S. across various states.
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Re: MAP policy change? 35%

Postby vvs » Sat Dec 02, 2017 2:36 pm

G'bye old times:
Image
Screenshot from october 2012 "order shipped" email.

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Re: MAP policy change? 35%

Postby MacLaren » Sat Dec 02, 2017 2:47 pm

Liquid Cobra wrote:
mastiff wrote:A ton of small dealers had to dump BM, but none of the big dealers, strange? If MAP is so much better for smaller dealers then why did so many drop BM? Both my local sporting goods store and the local gun shop had to drop BM and they run a 15% MAP. Just weird, huh? I have yet to find a dealer that doesn't carry Spyderco, even before MAP (that includes small dealers). If it was such a loser for all those small guys then why did everyone carry them pre MAP?
I have found the exact opposite of this to be true. The vast majority of b&m stores I have visited carry some form of benchmade and very little Spyderco if at all. This is true here in most of the stores in Canada and I’ve also found it to be true with the majority of the stores I’ve visited in the U.S. across various states.
Agreed. Mahoneys in Johnson City, TN has much more BM products than Spyderco. It was very lopsided.

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Re: MAP policy change? 35%

Postby gaj999 » Sat Dec 02, 2017 3:03 pm

Liquid Cobra wrote:The vast majority of b&m stores I have visited carry some form of benchmade and very little Spyderco if at all.
Interesting. Maybe there's room for two distribution channels, one for the low-volume pocket jewellery and another for the high-volume working man's knives. Heck, undercut Amazon by selling the FRN models directly to users online and sell the bling through dealers with a high MAP.

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Re: MAP policy change? 35%

Postby wsdavies » Sat Dec 02, 2017 6:28 pm

Let me point some things out:

1) I never said I needed to pay more because I had to spend money defending a frivolous law suit. My point of the story was to compare a loyal business like Spyderco to some of the soulless folks I deal with. I should have bought liability insurance, but my business was tiny at the time and a hobby more then a business. At the time I was teaching Jr. High School full time, coaching football and raising my kids, so I didn't have much extra time to think about the fact that I was going to get sued by some jerk in New Jersey.

2) I have no idea what Knifeworks or any other big retailer pays for the Spyderco they buy. I am a very small dealer and I know what dealer price is. So, please don't take my word for it, get you business license become a small dealer and get out there and sell some knives you bought at dealer price and report back to me and let me know how things went. You'll get a real education, that much I can promise.

3) I sell many brands from $30 dollar knives to $1500 knives. Spyderco is just a sliver of the pie. My business started as a hobby and I primarily sold Spyderco for a low margin because I thought it'd be cool to at least make something and get to see a lot of cool knives I couldn't normally afford. My hobby evolved into a business and now it's what I do full time.

4) I know and am friends with Rob at National Knives. We are competitors, but also have a friendly relationship and run very similar businesses. He's a guy I have a lot of respect for, so shop with Rob, he will certainly treat you right.

5) As some other smart forumites have pointed out Spyderco is just doing what they think is prudent to maintain or even grow a more robust dealer network that represents their brand in a good way across the globe. The only way that happens is if everyone that has a stake in the process can make enough to make it worth their while. Strangely enough I have never seen any knife dealers rolling around in Lambos, so this is not a greed thing...it's a pay your mortgage and feed your kids thing. If you feel the need to boycott dealers because they need to make enough to get by...well there's not much I can say about that.

6) Spyderco may not make more directly from a small bump in MAP, but having a broad and deep loyal dealer network will certainly pay them dividends in the future. If I were in their shoes I would much rather deal with 10,000 small dealers then 10 huge ones all with buying leverage trying to beat me to death to drop my price and know the only way to do that would be to outsource or lower quality.


mastiff wrote:
wsdavies wrote:So you think dealers should be happy to carry and promote the brand to make $5 on a $100? Many dealers don't bother selling Spyderco as there is not enough meat on the bone. This is not greed, it's economic reality. As I was saying, I sell Spyderco because I love the brand and they are what got me into knives. From a purely business perspective it's not very enticing especially since there are so many fakes out there that undercut the legit seller. I didn't ask for a MAP increase of 5% but I sure am glad they are doing it as it will allow me to keep selling the knives I love. I really respect the fact that Spyderco cares enough to take care of dealers like us that have been loyally carrying water for them for years. As I said before this is a company that still has a soul. Here's a story for you. When I 1st started selling knives I got a knock on the door one Sunday night...I got served as part of a lawsuit against a knife company (not Spyderco) Some joker cut himself using the knife I sold him as a pry-bar and was suing me, the knife designer, distributors and knife company. I just had started and didn't have liability insurance. I called the knife company and they wouldn't even answer me back to give me any advice. I couldn't even get any lawyers to call me back. So I persisted and called my sales rep and said this isn't right, someone from the company needs to call me. So finally the lawyer from their insurance company contacted me and put me in touch with an attorney. Cost me $8,000 to get written off the case. $8,000 on a knife I made ten bucks on. I couldn't believe a company I worked my butt off selling and promoting their brand wouldn't even call me back. So, having dealt with many knife companies since then I can tell you that Spyderco are decent people and worth supporting as are many of us small dealers who work very hard to take care of people.
mastiff wrote:So Spyderco gets nothing and the dealers get everything. If Spyderco was getting more then yeah, but just the dealers get more? That's sad in a way I can't even express. Could you tell us which dealers pushed for this?
So customers need to pay more for Spyderco products because you made the mistake of not having insurance? Before I ever lifted a bay door I had liability insurance. That's a "first things first" sort of thing. I had one of my guys lose a bolt down an intake and destroy a new motor. I had to eat that $5000 motor. So I should have raised prices on my customers because of my mistake of hiring someone that wasn't very diligent when it came to their job. It's called responsibility.

So for the last 30 years there was no problem selling Spydies but suddenly now it's become a losing proposition? Riiiiight :rolleyes: Knifeworks used to sell Spydies at 55% (less than 2 years ago). That means a PM2 with an MSRP of 209.95 cost around $115 to $116. That means every knife they sold they took a loss of $4.97 by your math. So you stuck with Spyderco even though you lost $4.97 a PM2 too? Why would anyone sell something that they lost so much money on? Nobody loves any company that much. That would be very bad business indeed if not outright madness! The big boys have even more lights, more employees, with bigger shops to heat, and actual warehouses! I bet they say that they won't hit break even until around the time MAP runs smack dab into MSRP ;) How they survived all these years is a question the world may never be able to answer? It'll be like finding Atlantis or El Dorado!

A ton of small dealers had to dump BM, but none of the big dealers, strange? If MAP is so much better for smaller dealers then why did so many drop BM? Both my local sporting goods store and the local gun shop had to drop BM and they run a 15% MAP. Just weird, huh? I have yet to find a dealer that doesn't carry Spyderco, even before MAP (that includes small dealers). If it was such a loser for all those small guys then why did everyone carry them pre MAP?

So I'll just support Spyderco and NK (he gave us fair warning when nobody else did) and punish the dealers the only way I know how, with a boycott of all dealers except National Knives. If we get a list of the dealers that pushed this through then the ones that didn't will be added to my list. I'll do my very best to convince everyone I know and every customer that walks through my door to do the same. I'll also convince my colleagues at the local Small Business Owners Association meetings to do the same. I know I'm a nobody, I don't count, and I won't make a difference. It's not the first time I've heard that. Hopefully this gives NK a great Christmas! Thanks for pointing me in the right direction Sal!

Most guys I see comment here don't realize that not a dime of this is going to Spyderco per Sal. They keep saying things like-"Well the Spyderco employees and the factory should get a raise". Except they get a nothing.

You think it's bad now fellas, wait till MAP hits 15% like BM or even 10%. Or just MSRP. I get the feeling that this will be a yearly or bi-yearly occurrence. That's where this goes ladies and gentlemen. It's fine though. Amazon and Walmart will put all the big dealers out of business that destroyed the small guys at some point in the near future, they'll get to know what it's like to be on the receiving end soon enough. I know I know, I'm a vindictive evil old man. I abhor price fixing and small businesses being destroyed with it is all. I am what I am.

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Re: MAP policy change? 35%

Postby wsdavies » Sat Dec 02, 2017 6:47 pm

Exactly. Where I live there isn't a single local store that sells Spyderco. If I open a B&M I will.
Liquid Cobra wrote:
mastiff wrote:A ton of small dealers had to dump BM, but none of the big dealers, strange? If MAP is so much better for smaller dealers then why did so many drop BM? Both my local sporting goods store and the local gun shop had to drop BM and they run a 15% MAP. Just weird, huh? I have yet to find a dealer that doesn't carry Spyderco, even before MAP (that includes small dealers). If it was such a loser for all those small guys then why did everyone carry them pre MAP?
I have found the exact opposite of this to be true. The vast majority of b&m stores I have visited carry some form of benchmade and very little Spyderco if at all. This is true here in most of the stores in Canada and I’ve also found it to be true with the majority of the stores I’ve visited in the U.S. across various states.

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Re: MAP policy change? 35%

Postby MacLaren » Sat Dec 02, 2017 6:53 pm

Yeah, when we lived in Asheville, there was a little store that sold different brands of knives thru Blue Ridge Dist. I asked if he could match a Knife Works price. He saw the price and said it cost him more than that to buy it. So, if he was truthful, then the big boys evidently do get a discount.

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Re: MAP policy change? 35%

Postby JRinFL » Sat Dec 02, 2017 7:09 pm

jtoler_9 wrote:
mrtodd777 wrote: Go buy a gas station special if an extra $10 bucks is going to kill ya.
I think you may be missing a few choices out there in between where we are at and the gas station specials. But I give you points for the clever insult.

I’m trying to read the room here and the feeling I’m getting from these types of comments is that the stance is, “if a price increase bothers you, don’t let the door hit you on the way out!” I’m invisioning the airlines with that type of sentiment and underlying disdain for ones customers. Loyal customers I might add that spend many hours a day with this brand. If they are like me, they have spent thousands with this company. If not more.

I’m confident all voices participating in this thread are fans of this brand. So I’m not sure why certain points of view seem to be less valid, ignorant to the ways of business, insulted and talked down to?

I’m doing a horrible job trying to stay out of this discussion, since I seem to always be on my own side here. I’ll do my level best to make this my last post on the subject.
You are not alone and you summed up my thoughts much better than I could. Thank you.

I wonder if mrtodd777 and others buy all their Spydercos directly from Spyderco? If not why not? That would benefit Spyderco the most.
Used to be JR in CT with a much earlier join date. :rolleyes: :spyder: Native in 440v was my gateway Spyderco! :spyder:

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Re: MAP policy change? 35%

Postby MacLaren » Sat Dec 02, 2017 7:42 pm

We wouldn't be doing Spyderco any good at all if we didn't say what we really feel. Then again, we also have to time to digest news like this. No one likes price increases.

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Re: MAP policy change? 35%

Postby gaj999 » Sat Dec 02, 2017 7:49 pm

MacLaren wrote:... then the big boys evidently do get a discount.
There's your problem, Vern. If there is a volume discount at the wholesale level, getting rid of it might go a long way toward leveling the playing field. It might fix the whole problem. Top-down control is inefficient. It works, but it's like swatting a fly with a sledgehammer. And you keep needing a bigger and bigger sledgehammer. And then you have to run around patching the drywall. In this day and age of internet sales with almost no barrier to entry, volume wholesale discounts merely put Amazon in the drivers seat. I'm pretty sure that I don't want them driving MY car ...

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Re: MAP policy change? 35%

Postby MacLaren » Sat Dec 02, 2017 8:23 pm

gaj999 wrote:
MacLaren wrote:... then the big boys evidently do get a discount.
There's your problem, Vern. If there is a volume discount at the wholesale level, getting rid of it might go a long way toward leveling the playing field. It might fix the whole problem. Top-down control is inefficient. It works, but it's like swatting a fly with a sledgehammer. And you keep needing a bigger and bigger sledgehammer. And then you have to run around patching the drywall. In this day and age of internet sales with almost no barrier to entry, volume wholesale discounts merely put Amazon in the drivers seat. I'm pretty sure that I don't want them driving MY car ...
Yup. I reckon that would be called "buying power"?
At any rate, having the same price for all would, I believe help level the playing field. But, I could be totally wrong.

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Re: MAP policy change? 35%

Postby SpyderEdgeForever » Sat Dec 02, 2017 8:40 pm

sal wrote:At one time, Buck and Gerber were the premiere knife companies in America.

Buck was fortunate to have CJ who took over the family business and is still doing a great job with the American company and maintaining good quality. Now CJ's kids are involved in the company which is a good thing.

Pete's kids didn't want the company so Pete sold it to Fiskars in Finland. They used the name to good advantage and significantly increased the size, but at the expense of quality.

sal

Very true sal, very true. And I hope this next statement does not take this topic off thread and I hope it doesn't violate the shiny footprints rule, but, its the honest straight forward personal experience: I have Fiskars scissors and shears, but, they are nothing in comparison to the Pre 1990s Fiskars knives and cutting tools. A Scandinavian knife expert I know told me that if I had used Fiskars knives from the 1960s and before, I would have been amazed at the quality since it was 100 percent Finnish made carbon and stainless steel. And I do have a memory of one of my first Fiskars made puukkos, one from the middle 1980s, and it was scary sharp.

As far as I am concerned, you are doing a great job Sal, you and Eric and the others there. Thank you again!

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Re: MAP policy change? 35%

Postby SpyderEdgeForever » Sat Dec 02, 2017 8:52 pm

SpyderEdgeForever wrote:
sal wrote:At one time, Buck and Gerber were the premiere knife companies in America.

Buck was fortunate to have CJ who took over the family business and is still doing a great job with the American company and maintaining good quality. Now CJ's kids are involved in the company which is a good thing.

Pete's kids didn't want the company so Pete sold it to Fiskars in Finland. They used the name to good advantage and significantly increased the size, but at the expense of quality.

sal

Very true sal, very true. And I hope this next statement does not take this topic off thread and I hope it doesn't violate the shiny footprints rule, but, its the honest straight forward personal experience: I have Fiskars scissors and shears, but, they are nothing in comparison to the Pre 1990s Fiskars knives and cutting tools. A Scandinavian knife expert I know told me that if I had used Fiskars knives from the 1960s and before, I would have been amazed at the quality since it was 100 percent Finnish made carbon and stainless steel. And I do have a memory of one of my first Fiskars made puukkos, one from the middle 1980s, and it was scary sharp. And now Finland has sent its cutting tool production to Poland. Poland actually does make good knives, a lot of people don't realize it, but, its a change for sure.

As far as I am concerned, you are doing a great job Sal, you and Eric and the others there. Thank you again!

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Re: MAP policy change? 35%

Postby GoldenSpydie » Sat Dec 02, 2017 9:22 pm

And / or line thy Spyderpac with tin foil and realize that no one actually needs a high-quality knife.

We're in pursuit of a luxury, claiming it costs too much. It's not like they raised the price on water, or bread, or even electricity for that matter.

Originally, I was skeptical of this increase, but from the dealer and other inside comments, I think I understand it. I still don't get why MAP isn't just MSRP (with lower MSRP of course), but some things aren't meant to be known. The bottom line is we (ELUs) can't control it, and we don't even have all of the related information, so the market stays the same as always: buy it if you want it and can afford it.
RamZar wrote:I remember one of my first top end Spydercos in September 2005 was the Military Model C36GPSE with G-10 Handle and ComboEdge S30V steel for $103.09 shipped. Now, the PlainEdge C36GPE with G-10/S30V is $160.77 and soon to be $174.18!
Yes, and you could get a pound of potatoes for 2 cents in 1913. Not sure what difference it makes, unless you have a time traveling machine (meaning you somehow figured out a flaw in General Relativity, proving you're smarter than Einstein).

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Re: MAP policy change? 35%

Postby RamZar » Sat Dec 02, 2017 9:58 pm

GoldenSpydie wrote:
RamZar wrote:I remember one of my first top end Spydercos in September 2005 was the Military Model C36GPSE with G-10 Handle and ComboEdge S30V steel for $103.09 shipped. Now, the PlainEdge C36GPE with G-10/S30V is $160.77 and soon to be $174.18!
Yes, and you could get a pound of potatoes for 2 cents in 1913. Not sure what difference it makes, unless you have a time traveling machine (meaning you somehow figured out a flaw in General Relativity, proving you're smarter than Einstein).
What you're not getting is that the Military, for the end consumer, has gone up 69% in 12 years. That's not in line with inflation which says it should be closer to $129. I'm not saying the Military should have a $129 street price but $174 seems quite excessive.
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Re: MAP policy change? 35%

Postby illacky » Sat Dec 02, 2017 10:07 pm

Right wrong or indifferent every company has the freedom to ask a price for a product they sell, and the consumer has the freedom to buy said product, or not.

Spyderco and their dealers aren’t forcing anyone to buy their products.
If you see a Spyderco you want and can afford it, buy it. If it isn’t worth the asking price or you can’t afford it, don’t buy it. The market will take care of the rest.
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Re: MAP policy change? 35%

Postby GoldenSpydie » Sat Dec 02, 2017 10:11 pm

RamZar wrote:
GoldenSpydie wrote:
RamZar wrote:I remember one of my first top end Spydercos in September 2005 was the Military Model C36GPSE with G-10 Handle and ComboEdge S30V steel for $103.09 shipped. Now, the PlainEdge C36GPE with G-10/S30V is $160.77 and soon to be $174.18!
Yes, and you could get a pound of potatoes for 2 cents in 1913. Not sure what difference it makes, unless you have a time traveling machine (meaning you somehow figured out a flaw in General Relativity, proving you're smarter than Einstein).
What you're not getting is that the Military, for the end consumer, has gone up 69% in 12 years. That's not in line with inflation which says it should be closer to $129. I'm not saying the Military should have a $129 street price but $174 seems quite excessive.
So there were absolutely no CQI / manufacturing changes in that period, as far as you know? Only inflation at play, right?


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