Steel Retention, Stropping & Garage Science

[SGJarrod]

This last week of work was extremely slow so I decided to do some Garage Science that was inspired by Pete from the Youtube channel Cedric & Ada Outdoors. I love Pete's channel and if you have not checked it out you should. I'm not trying to steel his thunder and I'm giving credit were credit is due. Without his steel tests I would have never thought to do this.

Pete's edges are done on the Worksharp for his tests. I have always wondered how a proper KME hair whittling edge would effect the results. So, I bought some 3/8" (9.5mm) sisal rope and got to work. All knives were sharpened on the KME using the diamond stones thru 1500 grit, honed with a translucent Arkansas stone and finally stropped on balsa using diamond compounds (1, .5, .25, .1 and .025 microns). Initial sharpness was tested by folding phone book paper in 4ths, standing it on end and cutting it in half without holding it. I've found if a knife can do this it can usually whittle hair with ease. I cut the rope using one section of the blade. The tests were stopped when the portion of the blade that did the cutting would not slice computer paper. Just like Pete's tests.



I used a scrap piece of pine as a cutting board.



I started this using some cheaper non-super steel knives as I did not want to sharpen and cut for ages.

Results, KME edge stropped vs Worksharp edge

*14C28N - Kershaw Knockout
20 degrees per side.....199 cuts to 71.. I got 2.8x more

*BD1 - Spyderco Manix 2 LW
17.5 degrees per side.... 297 cuts to 112... 2.7x more

*Aus8 - Ontario Rat Model II
17.5 degrees per side.... 193 cuts to 56... 3.5x more

*D2 - Ontario Rat Model I
17.5 degrees per side....513 cuts to 120...4.3x more

*154cm - Benchmade 551 Griptillian
17.5 degrees per side.....607 cuts to 124....4.9x more

*CTS XHP - Cold Steel American Lawman
17.5 degrees per side.....1097 cut to 246..... 4.5x more

*S110V -Spyderco PM2
17.5 degrees per side.....1603 cuts to 295.....5.4x more
(Note I left the translucent Arkansas out as it does
nothing to S110V)

It appears that lower-end steels averaged 2.75x more cuts. I'm not including the Rat II in this as it was an outlier. I'm assuming this was because the blade was the thinnest of all used. Great Slicer!

The mid-tier steels averaged 4.6x more edge retention.

The clear differences in edge retention made me question why. My conclusion was it had to be that my edge angles were slightly more acute, the initial sharpness of a proper V edge and stropping. This led me to my next test. I sharpened the Manix 2 LW BD1 up to 1500 grit and did not strop it. I did burr minimization by ending with alternating strokes on each side of the blade. The knife would not pass my phone book paper test. With this edge I was able to do 191 cuts.

This led me to resharpen the Manix to 1500 grit and then strop with a Stropman strop loaded with his green compound. This edge did pass my phone book paper test and I was able to get 293 cuts. This proves to me that the diamond stropping compounds are a complete waste on non-vanadium rich steels. And everyone should strop their knives!!!!

I know this is not a perfect test nor was it meant to be. I'm sure there could be improvements made in my testing but this was just kind of a spur of the moment time killer that snowballed. I have many more steels that I may test in the future if I'm up to spending a fortune on rope and my hand can take it.



I hope you found this as interesting as I did. It was very educational to see how the different steels broke down thru the testing. If you have questions please ask. I'm also open to suggestions. Thanks


-----------------------------------------------
MORE RESULTS ADDED SINCE ORIGINAL POST.

D2 - Benchmade Adamas
17.5 dps......... 936 cuts.... to 112 on Ontario Rat D2
7.8x more...... my previous Ontario Rat D2 test 513.
Benchmade D2 got 1.8x more cut over Rat with my
edge.

VG10 - Spyderco Endura 4 ffg
17.5 dps...........723 cuts to 75........9.6x more

[SGJarrod]

Another thing I found was that D2 and XHP did act a lot alike in my testing. D2 stayed sharp till just below 200ish cuts and kept the same working edge till it died suddenly. XHP behaved the same way but lost it's sharpness at 430ish cuts and held a working edge till it died. Both got very toothy at these points.

[The Mastiff]

Thank you for doing the testing and sharing the results with us. Pretty cool stuff!

Joe

[bearfacedkiller]

Excellent data! We love testing and appreciate you taking the time to do this and to share it with us!

FYI, photobucket is kaput! Pics aren't working.

[SGJarrod]

Thanks guys, pics fixed.... bye bye photobucket

[Bloke]

Many thanks! :)

Much appreciated! :cool:

[sal]

Hi SGJarrod,

Welcome to our forum and thanx much for your contribution. The junky's 'round here love measurement.

sal

[JohnyKwst]

Useful information, thanks. Hope you can do other steels. The note about XHP and D2 were also interesting.

[SGJarrod]

Well, I felt like punishing myself today. I just did my S110v PM2. The edge was KME 17.5 degrees per side thru 1500 grit diamond then stropped thru .025 micron diamond on balsa. I left the translucent Arkansas out as it does nothing to S110V.

1603 cuts...Pete got 295 off his worksharp edge. 5.4x more retention. Ridiculous, my forearm is spent. This kinda makes me dread the Maxamet PM2 cuz u know that's a must have.

Edit...result added to original post as well.

[JimP]

Very nice work! Looks like Pete needs to ditch his Worksharp for a KME though....for anyone that likes the idea of a somewhat awkward ozzy nerd trialling his survival skills overnight, then Pete's "dickhead survival" is too funny and a must watch, I enjoy all his channel though.

[Doc Dan]

Thanks! That was interesting.

[SGJarrod]

Very nice work! Looks like Pete needs to ditch his Worksharp for a KME though....for anyone that likes the idea of a somewhat awkward ozzy nerd trialling his survival skills overnight, then Pete's "dickhead survival" is too funny and a must watch, I enjoy all his channel though.

Pete and I have email back and forth a little about my results. He agreed a manual guided sharpener gives much better edges but with the amount of knives he sharpens and tests the powered systems are a huge time saver for him. A powered sharpener takes minutes. Kme/Edge pro takes exponentially longer. He's got a family, a job and youtube likes new content.

I'm doing this to try to develop a rough baseline of the difference my edges get vs his.

Basic steels (BD1, 14C28N) got roughly 2.7x more edge retention with my edge.

Mid-tier steels (154cm, D2) got roughly 4.6x more.

Now a high end steel (s110v) got 5.4x more.

I need to do some more tests. I'm looking for a GENERAL idea what my edge does compared to his in comparable steels. Then hopefully I can have a ROUGH idea without testing all steels. Cuz I do buy knives based on blade steel. Not perfect, not meant to be. Just curiosity. I know members over at Blade Forums have done more exhaustive tests but I really wanted results with my edge.

Next I hope to test M390 or 20CV. I currently have both those steels. I'm trying to sell my Blurple Native 5 and once that's gone I'm gonna get either M4 or Maxamet to test.

[SGJarrod]

Today I sharpened one of my buddy's knives. It was a Benchmade Adamas in D2. I had no experience with Benchmade's D2 so I did a cut test. Same M.O....KME, 17.5 dps, 1500 grit diamond and stropped to .025 micron.

Let me say I was blown away. Benchmade knows how to heat treat D2. I got 936 cuts!!!!! That's right....936. That's approaching what the Cold Steel CTS-XHP did.

I knew the D2 on the Ontario was HT softer but this knocked my socks off.

Pete's Ontario Rat Model 1 D2 test...120 cuts

My Ontario Rat Model 1 D2 test.........513

Benchmade Adamas D2 test.............936

That's 7.8x more than Pete's test and 1.8x more than my previous test on the softer Ontario D2.

The only bad thing was I had to sharpen it a 2nd time to give it back to my buddy.

Results added in OP.

I promise I'll start testing my Spyderco's. I just had to jump this one to the front of the line as it was only in my possession for the day.

[vivi]

I owned a few D2 Benchmades back in the day and they performed well.

Have you ever tried testing Queen's D2? If not I have a stockman you could borrow. It also took an incredibly nice edge for me, but I never used it hard enough to get a good idea of its edge retention.

Also carried a CPMD2 Military for years and loved it. It is such an easy steel for me to sharpen to the upper limits of my abilities.

[SGJarrod]

I owned a few D2 Benchmades back in the day and they performed well.

Have you ever tried testing Queen's D2? If not I have a stockman you could borrow. It also took an incredibly nice edge for me, but I never used it hard enough to get a good idea of its edge retention.

Also carried a CPMD2 Military for years and loved it. It is such an easy steel for me to sharpen to the upper limits of my abilities.

I don't currently have any traditionals. It's something I always look at but never pull the trigger on. I'd be willing to test it if you feel comfortable sending it to me and allowing me to sharpen it.

How do you sharpen? Have you ever thought of buying some rope and trying this yourself?

[SGJarrod]

Today I got to a Spyderco Endura 4 FFG VG10. I was expecting around or under my 154cm results but was pleasantly suprised. KME to 1500 grit diamond, finished with translucent Arkansas, and stropped thru .025 diamond on balsa. This thing was probably the sharpest I've ever had a knife. It wouldn't whittle hair, it just blew thru them.

VG10 - Spyderco Endura 4 ffg
17.5 dps............723 cuts to 75........9.6x more

I'm assuming the reason for the huge increase is a few things.
1) My slightly more acute dps (20 vs 17.5)
2) V grind vs convex
3) The edge finish
4) The level of initial sharpness

VG10 really liked the translucent Arkansas stone. It raise a burr easier than it had on any steel I used it on in the past. I will definitely stick to this sharpening process for my Endura.

When it quit slicing paper I examined the edge. There was some rough spots but the main culprit was a nice roll. Out of curiosity I stropped it with Stropman white compound on leather and it was back to slicing paper. Rough slicing, but still slicing. Color me impressed!

And pics cuz I know you like pics of Spyderco's.

[vivi]

I owned a few D2 Benchmades back in the day and they performed well.

Have you ever tried testing Queen's D2? If not I have a stockman you could borrow. It also took an incredibly nice edge for me, but I never used it hard enough to get a good idea of its edge retention.

Also carried a CPMD2 Military for years and loved it. It is such an easy steel for me to sharpen to the upper limits of my abilities.

I don't currently have any traditionals. It's something I always look at but never pull the trigger on. I'd be willing to test it if you feel comfortable sending it to me and allowing me to sharpen it.

How do you sharpen? Have you ever thought of buying some rope and trying this yourself?

I used to do a lot of different types of testing when I ran a knife review website. Edge retention tests, toughness tests, corrosion tests, seeing how thin each type of steel can go before failure etc. I enjoyed it quite a bit.

I re-bevel knives on a DMT XX coarse stone, usually to the 8-10 degrees range, then I move to brown sharpmaker rods and apply a 15 degree per side microbevel. Depending on the steel I may leave it at that level of polish, or take it to the fines, or even my ultra fine benchstone. I strop on loaded leather, and typically only strop once per side.

If you PM me your info I can mail you that queen. It's just sitting in my knife drawer collecting dust. Been years since I've used it. I pretty much hold on to it just to remind me of my grandfather.

[SGJarrod]

If you PM me your info I can mail you that queen. It's just sitting in my knife drawer collecting dust. Been years since I've used it. I pretty much hold on to it just to remind me of my grandfather.

PM sent

[ZMW]

Does this test show that sharpening skills are vastly important then the specific steel performance? If I do an avg job sharpening S30v, and you put a perfect edge on BD1 - you will get better performance. Perhaps I should get some UF rods instead of a new knife???

[SGJarrod]

Does this test show that sharpening skills are vastly important then the specific steel performance? If I do an avg job sharpening S30v, and you put a perfect edge on BD1 - you will get better performance. Perhaps I should get some UF rods instead of a new knife???

Yes a higher quality edge gives you better edge retention. But each steel still has its limits. I would recommend a strop before you get UF rods. The fine rods are supposedly around 1200 grit if I recall correctly. You should be able to get a knife hair whittling off those if you do your part.

Sharpening is burr formation and removal. The strop is what helps remove the burr for peak sharpness. One thing you may have noted above is that with BD1 unstropped I only got around 200 cuts. Stropped I got around 300. I think this demonstrates the point.

If you want some real expert sharpening tips check out Michael Christy on YouTube. Compared to him I'm a novice sharpener.