Reprofiling with the Sharpmaker

[RLDubbya]

While I used the CBN rods, I think my observation should apply to diamond rods as well.

Essentially, I recall reading somewhere to spray the rod with a fine mist of water to prevent excessive wear and particle loss. In Wayne Goddard's book, he advocates using a mixture of Simple Green and water in place of honing oil on all stones. He claims that this keeps the stones cleaner, and prevents a buildup of slurry.

I took both ideas and sprayed the CBN rods with a mix of Simple Green and water while I was doing some reprofiling with the Tatanka. I had noticed a couple things: first the edge, while fairly smooth, was not sharp out of the box - in fact, it was rather dull. There was about a 10 degree difference in secondary grinds from side to side. Finally, the secondary grind angle did not correspond to a Sharpmaker angle well at all; and surprisingly, the angles were closer to 15 degrees per side than 20 per side, which I scratched my head over for a bit.

I decided to play with the Sharpmaker rather than use the Worksharp as I normally do.

I ran through CBN, medium gray, fine, and ultra-fine rods. I used an extremely light pressure, lighter than I ever have used. I made about 30-40 strokes per corner and per face (so, 60-80 strokes total) on each rod. The pressure I used was generated by placing the blade against the rod while holding the knife near the butt with the tips of my thumb and forefinger only, and not squeezing. A quite loose grip; I sort of just dropped the knife, providing guidance so that the knife didn't fall off the rod.

I stopped prior to stropping. I have never experienced an edge this sharp from the Sharpmaker prior to this experiment. Not even close. Examining the edge under a loupe, all traces of a burr, on both sides, have been cleanly knocked off. The secondary grind is now consistent from side to side, for the entire length of the cutting area. The apex is cleanly defined.

The only potential downside is that the edge is just a little bit on the toothy side. It's not terrible by any judgment. Without a loupe, and close examination, you would never notice.

I am quite impressed at the ability of the Sharpmaker and Spyderco's rods after my little experiment. :D

[Surfingringo]

Hi dubbya, sounds like you got quite a keen edge there. Congrats! I like a very sharp but toothy edge for all my fish cleaning work. Goes right through scale and bone when a more refined edge will want to slide on the surface.

Out of curiosity, were you sharpening at 40 degrees? You said the original grind was close to 15 degrees per side (I think this is typically what Spyderco shoots for on their factory grinds). I wasn't quite sure if you were reprofiling to 30 or 40 degrees inclusive. Both have their uses, I was just curious.

-ETA: I wasn't sure from reading your post if you used the corners of the CBN rods, but in my experience I haven't found the corners of the diamond (cbn) rods to be as effective as the flats for removing steel and reprofiling. It is also very easy to strip the diamonds from the corners so I tend to save the corners for when I need to do some reprofiling on serrated edges. YMMV. :)

[JD Spydo]

Hey thanks for sharing that with us "Dubbya" :) I'm a bit of sharpening fanatic myself and I'm always looking for new sharpening tips and new ideas because sharpening knife blades is certainly not an exact science. The old adage "There's More Than One Way To Skin A Cat" absolutely applies to the skill of not only the sharpening of knife blades but edged tools in general. Because I've found that there isn't just one specific method for attaining a fine workable edge on a premium piece of cutlery. And I'm sure we are going to discover many more methods as time goes on.

I've found that sometimes my TORMEK, wet grinding tool is the better way to remove stock and re-profile a really beat up edge. And then there are many other times I've found that either my coarse or extra-coarse diamond benchstones are the ticket for a nice job of re-profiling a knife edge>> to prepare for the fine finishing touch.

My one long time complaint and/or disappointment concerning Spyderco's 204 Sharpmaker is the lack of an extra-coarse aggressive stone for the unit that is capable of quick stock removal for really beat up blades. I've owned and used the diamond stone for years>> actually I've worn out two set of them but often I've found that have a lot to be desired for serious stock removal. But with all things considered the 204 Sharpmaker is a great tool for a kit type sharpening system>> I still say it's by far the most versatile sharpening kit on the overall market.

I find your recommendation ( or Wayne Goddard's) of using Simple Green ( or any other cleaning solvent) on the stone to prevent build up of abraded material is most interesting. I've thought many times that there must be something better than honing oil for benchstones. When it comes to sharpening tools we've probably had more advancements in the past 15 years than we have in the past 100 years combined IMO. Yeah there definitely is more than one method of producing a razor sharp edge irrespective of which tool or method you use. Most interesting subject matter.

[RLDubbya]

Hi dubbya, sounds like you got quite a keen edge there. Congrats! I like a very sharp but toothy edge for all my fish cleaning work. Goes right through scale and bone when a more refined edge will want to slide on the surface.

Out of curiosity, were you sharpening at 40 degrees? You said the original grind was close to 15 degrees per side (I think this is typically what Spyderco shoots for on their factory grinds). I wasn't quite sure if you were reprofiling to 30 or 40 degrees inclusive. Both have their uses, I was just curious.

-ETA: I wasn't sure from reading your post if you used the corners of the CBN rods, but in my experience I haven't found the corners of the diamond (cbn) rods to be as effective as the flats for removing steel and reprofiling. It is also very easy to strip the diamonds from the corners so I tend to save the corners for when I need to do some reprofiling on serrated edges. YMMV. :)

Lance,

Prior to sharpening, using the Sharpie method, the bevel for side A measured at 18 degrees; side B measured at 12 degrees. For those of us who are math impaired, that's close to a 10 degree difference. For normal humans, that's at worst a 6 degree difference.

Side note (true story) that might explain the above: my mother's ob-gyn once told me that when my mother was in labor and ready to deliver me, she stopped off in an exam room because she was feeling 'woozy'. She proceeded to throw up a stomach full of red wine. This might explain how I believe 18-12 = 10. Just a guess.

Since there was such a big difference between sides, and since is the Tatanka, not the Balance, I decided to reprofile and set the edge to 40 degrees inclusive. That's another thing that always amazes me about VG-10 and good sharpening: I'm using a steeper angle, and I still get a burr free edge that is good for shaving, and I skipped the strop.

Great point about the corners of the CBN rods. There is a palpable difference between using the bare edge and keeping the edge sprayed down with Simple Green; it seems as though abrasion is just as high or higher, but the blade is less "catchy" on the particles. I think that's what Wayne is getting at in the passages here:

https://books.google.com/books?id=fbhRS ... en&f=false

He states that the stone actually cuts faster with Simple Green compared to honing oil.

[RLDubbya]

My one long time complaint and/or disappointment concerning Spyderco's 204 Sharpmaker is the lack of an extra-coarse aggressive stone for the unit that is capable of quick stock removal for really beat up blades. I've owned and used the diamond stone for years>> actually I've worn out two set of them but often I've found that have a lot to be desired for serious stock removal. But with all things considered the 204 Sharpmaker is a great tool for a kit type sharpening system>> I still say it's by far the most versatile sharpening kit on the overall market.

I find your recommendation ( or Wayne Goddard's) of using Simple Green ( or any other cleaning solvent) on the stone to prevent build up of abraded material is most interesting. I've thought many times that there must be something better than honing oil for benchstones. When it comes to sharpening tools we've probably had more advancements in the past 15 years than we have in the past 100 years combined IMO. Yeah there definitely is more than one method of producing a razor sharp edge irrespective of which tool or method you use. Most interesting subject matter.

A couple things: Wayne's recommendation is only Simple Green. Nothing else. Does that matter? You should test and get back to us, but I can tell you that it's extremely easy to feel the rods cutting much faster with a misting of Simple Green.

Likewise, this trick might fix your issue re: stock removal. I had the same complaint with the CBN rods - quite slow. But with the Simple Green, even using a much lighter pressure on the knife, I would guess that the rods cut at least 5x as quickly on VG-10.

I'm excited by this; I'm getting a new Wicked Edge in the next week. I really want to test speed with and without Simple Green on that system.

[yablanowitz]

I like Simple Green. I use it a lot at work. Be advised that one thing it does not do is rinse clean. It leaves a residue that can be sticky and require scrubbing to remove. Just a little something I've found using it extensively for a few years.

[Surfingringo]

Lance,

Prior to sharpening, using the Sharpie method, the bevel for side A measured at 18 degrees; side B measured at 12 degrees. For those of us who are math impaired, that's close to a 10 degree difference. For normal humans, that's at worst a 6 degree difference.

Side note (true story) that might explain the above: my mother's ob-gyn once told me that when my mother was in labor and ready to deliver me, she stopped off in an exam room because she was feeling 'woozy'. She proceeded to throw up a stomach full of red wine. This might explain how I believe 18-12 = 10. Just a guess.

Since there was such a big difference between sides, and since is the Tatanka, not the Balance, I decided to reprofile and set the edge to 40 degrees inclusive. That's another thing that always amazes me about VG-10 and good sharpening: I'm using a steeper angle, and I still get a burr free edge that is good for shaving, and I skipped the strop.

Great point about the corners of the CBN rods. There is a palpable difference between using the bare edge and keeping the edge sprayed down with Simple Green; it seems as though abrasion is just as high or higher, but the blade is less "catchy" on the particles. I think that's what Wayne is getting at in the passages here:

https://books.google.com/books?id=fbhRS ... en&f=false

He states that the stone actually cuts faster with Simple Green compared to honing oil.

You know, I rarely use anything on the diamond stones but I really should because it does make a difference. The first person to recommend that to me was Phil Wilson and he said he liked using Windex. Sometimes I'm too lazy or I just forget, but I know it helps so thanks for the reminder.

[JRinFL]

While I used the CBN rods, I think my observation should apply to diamond rods as well.

Essentially, I recall reading somewhere to spray the rod with a fine mist of water to prevent excessive wear and particle loss. In Wayne Goddard's book, he advocates using a mixture of Simple Green and water in place of honing oil on all stones. He claims that this keeps the stones cleaner, and prevents a buildup of slurry.

I took both ideas and sprayed the CBN rods with a mix of Simple Green and water while I was doing some reprofiling with the Tatanka. I had noticed a couple things: first the edge, while fairly smooth, was not sharp out of the box - in fact, it was rather dull. There was about a 10 degree difference in secondary grinds from side to side. Finally, the secondary grind angle did not correspond to a Sharpmaker angle well at all; and surprisingly, the angles were closer to 15 degrees per side than 20 per side, which I scratched my head over for a bit.

I decided to play with the Sharpmaker rather than use the Worksharp as I normally do.

I ran through CBN, medium gray, fine, and ultra-fine rods. I used an extremely light pressure, lighter than I ever have used. I made about 30-40 strokes per corner and per face (so, 60-80 strokes total) on each rod. The pressure I used was generated by placing the blade against the rod while holding the knife near the butt with the tips of my thumb and forefinger only, and not squeezing. A quite loose grip; I sort of just dropped the knife, providing guidance so that the knife didn't fall off the rod.

I stopped prior to stropping. I have never experienced an edge this sharp from the Sharpmaker prior to this experiment. Not even close. Examining the edge under a loupe, all traces of a burr, on both sides, have been cleanly knocked off. The secondary grind is now consistent from side to side, for the entire length of the cutting area. The apex is cleanly defined.

The only potential downside is that the edge is just a little bit on the toothy side. It's not terrible by any judgment. Without a loupe, and close examination, you would never notice.

I am quite impressed at the ability of the Sharpmaker and Spyderco's rods after my little experiment. :D

Thank you for this clear and concise sharpening guide. Really, thank you. I will try it in the next few days as I have been getting discouraged with my non-improving sharpening skill.

[RLDubbya]

I like Simple Green. I use it a lot at work. Be advised that one thing it does not do is rinse clean. It leaves a residue that can be sticky and require scrubbing to remove. Just a little something I've found using it extensively for a few years.

There is another thing to know: Simple Green will dissolve certain types of aluminum. When in doubt, limit exposure to 10 minutes max.

[Bloke]

You know, I rarely use anything on the diamond stones but I really should because it does make a difference. The first person to recommend that to me was Phil Wilson and he said he liked using Windex. Sometimes I'm too lazy or I just forget, but I know it helps so thanks for the reminder.

It does make a difference! :)

I used to mess around with oil, kerosene, water... it all amounted to a mess. :eek:

I took Jim Ankerson's advice and tried Windex. Now I use it on everything (except windows, beloved wife does them and has her own Windex) and I've never looked back. Give it a go and I'm sure you'll be pleasantly suprised.

[thombrogan]

I use water with a drop or two of soap with my benchstones and lapping films and DoubleStuff, but it always seems to slide down off the Sharpmaker hones.

[RLDubbya]

I use water with a drop or two of soap with my benchstones and lapping films and DoubleStuff, but it always seems to slide down off the Sharpmaker hones.

I use a spray bottle set to a fine mist & periodically mist the Sharpmaker.

[Bloke]

I use water with a drop or two of soap with my benchstones and lapping films and DoubleStuff, but it always seems to slide down off the Sharpmaker hones.

There's little if any porosity in ceramics so everything runs off. :eek:

On the SM I use a 1/2" artists brush to apply Windex and scrub away swarf plus you can get a bit of a lather going. :)

[FCM415]

I got bad wrists and low patience but when I buckle down and work on it, the SM can get me as far as I want to get with me edges!

[roger-roger]

How does this sound?

Its taking me over 1000 strokes each side (corners), for an approximate 40* to 30* re-profile of a VG10 Cricket. These diamond rods are still newish, with only one corner having been used for the most part.

[Surfingringo]

How does this sound?

Its taking me over 1000 strokes each side (corners), for an approximate 40* to 30* re-profile of a VG10 Cricket. These diamond rods are still newish, with only one corner having been used for the most part.

Depending on how obtuse and thick the edge was when you started, yes, it can take that long. Especially on something like a reverse s where you can only use the corners of the diamond rods and have to go extra light. For this reason, I reprofile early and often on my reverse s blades so it doesn't become a nightmare. Another note on sm+reverse s is it is extremely easy to round the tip by dragging it off the rods. I usually save the last 1/4" of tip until the very end and sharpen that carefully in a different grip.

[RLDubbya]

How does this sound?

Its taking me over 1000 strokes each side (corners), for an approximate 40* to 30* re-profile of a VG10 Cricket. These diamond rods are still newish, with only one corner having been used for the most part.

Sounds like your wrists will be in good shape when you're done. :eek:

Try the Simple Green trick - I reprofiled my Tatanka a lot faster than that. Moreover, prior to using SG, I had completely given up on reprofiling with the SM, and immediately used a WorkSharp for the first, cutting phase. Yes, that's still faster - but the SM is now at least thinkable to use for a reprofile.

[RLDubbya]

Thank you for this clear and concise sharpening guide. Really, thank you. I will try it in the next few days as I have been getting discouraged with my non-improving sharpening skill.

You are welcome.

I'll also say that if you have any questions, feel free to ask - there is a lot of collective knowledge about sharpening (and everything Spydie and knives) on this forum. You should be able to get help.

[roger-roger]

Thanks for the great feedback.