Spyderco Medium vs Fine Bench Stone

[jmfwsu]

Hi,

I already have a Norton India combination stone (course 150 grit and fine 320 grit) and am considering adding finer stone. Im trying to choose between the medium and fine spyderco ceramic bench stones. The main purpose of this stone would be to touch up already sharp knives, but it would also be nice to use in conjunction with the India stone.

Does the medium leave a nice finished edge, or would I need the fine? Could I use the fine to put a microlevel on the edge after shaping with the India stone?

As you can see, Im a little confused.

Thanks,
Jason

[jdw]

Have you tried genuinely quarried Arkansas stone? Try a really hard stone. In my experience with the right touch they can hold the edge
on most anything without any compromise to the steel. I wouldn't depend on grit as much as feel. Just my opinion.

[jmfwsu]

Haven't tries an Arkansas stone. Do they have advantages over spyderco ceramics?

[jdw]

I honestly don't know. I grew up sharpening knives with them so I may have a bias. Maybe someone that uses
both could chime in.

[Bodog]

Haven't tries an Arkansas stone. Do they have advantages over spyderco ceramics?

No. Most actual Arkansas stones can barely touch decently wear resistant steels. When you're looking at stones stick with SiC or better. Actual Arkansas stones are novaculite (silicon dioxide IIRC) and they're suited for low alloy, low wear resistant steels. Novaculite is pretty soft. Even chromium carbides are harder and that's pretty low on hardness scales.

I think novaculite comes in at about 67-69 Rockwell. Most steels spyderco uses come in at between 59 and 62. I think the ZDP spyderco heat treats is like 67. So it can be done on most steels but barely. I have a couple of knives in steel that's as hard or harder than novaculite so you'd have better luck sharpening your steel on some other steel than on most natural Arkansas stones.

Some Arkansas stones are aluminum oxide or silicon carbide so maybe those would work but they're rare. Unless I'm wrong and I might be. I don't look at Arkansas stones too much for the reasons stated above.

[jdw]

Hi Bodog....I have read your messages and I respect your opinion...I grew up in the Flint Creek region of OK.
How am I able to maintain an edge on the blade of an Arkanansas stone with a lower HRC hardness more than ceramics? I have a stone used for two generations before me...Is it touch, imagination, or may not everything be determined by an infinite HRC scale? Your answer is why I respect your opinion. Thanks..jd

[Bodog]

Hi Bodog....I have read your messages and I respect your opinion...I grew up in the Flint Creek region of OK.
How am I able to maintain an edge on the blade of an Arkanansas stone with a lower HRC hardness more than ceramics? I have a stone used for two generations before me...Is it touch, imagination, or may not everything be determined by an infinite HRC scale? Your answer is why I respect your opinion. Thanks..jd

What kind of steel are you sharpening? Which ceramic are you comparing to?

Rockwell hardness scale isn't infinite. And pulling stones out of the ground to scrape steel against them can't really be a precise thing any more than any other naturally occurring material. Maybe the ceramic you used sucked? Maybe you weren't familiar with ceramic and did something wrong? Maybe you use a really old stone that can't be readily found today?

And like mentioned earlier, some Arkansas stones may be something other than novaculite.

And if you're using a lower grit soft stone and comparing it to a higher grit ceramic stone and you're allowing the softer stone shed and you're not cleaning the ceramic, then yeah, I bet the Arkansas stone would work better.

Truth is i don't know you or how or what you sharpen. As always, glad you found something that works for you. Whether others can replicate or should try to replicate what you're doing to see the results you're seeing is a choice others would have to make for themselves.

By all means, if you question what I say feel free to look into it yourself. It's not exactly rare to find exceptions to any rule.

[jdw]

Exactly...there are too many variables to argue the point...find something that speaks to you
and follow it...Peace

[Bodog]

Exactly...there are too many variables to argue the point...find something that speaks to you
and follow it...Peace

Not really too many variables. Just some exceptions. But that's with anything.

[jdw]

Thanks Bodog. I agree with your exceptions. I appreciate your thoughts...

[tripscheck'em]

Hi,

I already have a Norton India combination stone (course 150 grit and fine 320 grit) and am considering adding finer stone. Im trying to choose between the medium and fine spyderco ceramic bench stones. The main purpose of this stone would be to touch up already sharp knives, but it would also be nice to use in conjunction with the India stone.

Does the medium leave a nice finished edge, or would I need the fine? Could I use the fine to put a microlevel on the edge after shaping with the India stone?

As you can see, Im a little confused.

Thanks,
Jason

The medium ceramic is good for using with an oil stone, that's what I do. However, because the grit jump is so large between an India and the Spyderco medium, you'll want to make sure that you run enough passes on the medium before moving to the Fine.

Do not try going to the fine when coming straight off the India stone, all you'll do is get irritated. The grit jump is too large, doesn't matter what you're trying to do, it'll fail.

I would use the Spyderco medium for setting a micro-bevel and then move to the fine. The Spyderco fine grinds steel *extremely* slowly, too slow IMO for any kind of substantial steel removal. And when you do go to the fine, put in extra passes to make sure it does its job. Again, it cuts *very* slowly and gives what is basically a toothless, almost purely homogeneous edge.

You might want to consider going to a King waterstone when coming off the India, before going to the ceramics. I now only use my crystolone stone when cutting off a damaged apex in the Cliff Stamp manner. Otherwise, I use a King 6000 grit waterstone, then go to the ceramics. The reason is that it's so easy to create a burr with the India stone because of how coarse it is, and the waterstone's slurry removes all the damaged steel on the edge, so when you get to the ceramics you basically have a clean slate to work with and can come away with a truly ceramic sharpened edge. If you're not careful, the ceramics will only bend back into position the leftovers from the India stone, or Diamond stone, because of how slowly they cut, which is why you'll want to put in extra passes with them. This is where the King is useful.

Use light pressure on the ceramics, and definitely use oil on the ceramics, just like with your India stone. Mineral oil, gun oil, just have something on there to help the ceramic cut the steel. Otherwise the ceramic will clog up just like your India stone and then everything is doomed.

[jmfwsu]

Thanks for the advice regarding the waterstones.

What kind of edge could I achieve if I stopped at the Spyderco Medium stone? Is there a lot of potential there, or would I need the fine also?

[tripscheck'em]

You might want to consider going to a King waterstone when coming off the India, before going to the ceramics.

and if you do decide to mix in a King waterstone, condition the King before using it. Soak the King in water for about 10 minutes, then take the Spyderco medium ceramic stone, lay it on top of the wet King stone and grind into the King stone with the medium, and don't wash off that cloudy slurry, that's what you want. Conditioning it first will give you an extra huge slurry and that makes the whole process go faster. That slurry is dislodged abrasive that is going to ram into your edge, so its like you're sharpening on two stones at once. Don't worry about it being super duper sharp coming off the King, it won't be. The slurry, which is to say the King, is there to help you "purify" the edge.

[tripscheck'em]

Thanks for the advice regarding the waterstones.

What kind of edge could I achieve if I stopped at the Spyderco Medium stone? Is there a lot of potential there, or would I need the fine also?

You could, I do some days. You'll have an edge that is much finer than the India but is still also kinda coarse. It's a good overall edge.

Lansky makes a good Fine ceramic rod that is the same grit as Spyderco's but costs only 10 dollars. Get the Spyderco medium stone, because that IMO is a must have, and try out the Lansky to see if you how the fine works.

[Chumango]

I grew up sharpening with Arkansas stones. They are basically quartz. The different grades (soft, hard) are only different in density, not in composition or the size of the crystals.

Arkansas stones will sharpen most things, but as the amount of hard carbides (vanadium, niobium) increases the longer it will take. Quartz is harder than the matrix around the carbides, but not harder than most carbides. Back in the day 440C was the "supersteel" and it has a fair bit of chromium carbides. Arkansas stones work for that, albeit slowly.

Today's higher end steels have a lot of vanadium, among other things. I find that they just glide across an Arkansas stone. It would take a long time to sharpen them. I use diamond stones almost exclusively now because of this.

[Bodog]

I grew up sharpening with Arkansas stones. They are basically quartz. The different grades (soft, hard) are only different in density, not in composition or the size of the crystals.

Arkansas stones will sharpen most things, but as the amount of hard carbides (vanadium, niobium) increases the longer it will take. Quartz is harder than the matrix around the carbides, but not harder than most carbides. Back in the day 440C was the "supersteel" and it has a fair bit of chromium carbides. Arkansas stones work for that, albeit slowly.

Today's higher end steels have a lot of vanadium, among other things. I find that they just glide across an Arkansas stone. It would take a long time to sharpen them. I use diamond stones almost exclusively now because of this.

Depends on the specific quartz and the specific steel. I have knives that are 69-70 RC. The matrix is harder than the stone. That's not even talking about the individual carbides or huge carbide volume.

[arty]

Get the fine to use after the India. If you are going to sharpen steels like S35V Or other high carbon stainless, I would get both- the medium and fine. Frankly, I don't see much of a difference between the edge from a fine India and medium ceramic.

[roger-roger]

The slurry from King stones actually take the grit a bit finer, the separated broken particles helping to transition to the next stone. Keep the stone clean for faster cutting. My stones were kept soaked in tupperware ready to go.

[awa54]

OP, I love natural stones and Japanese synthetic water stones, but only for use on carbon steel and low carbide stainless steels. If you are trying to sharpen some of the high alloy tool steels or "super" stainless that come in Spyderco blades these days, I'd suggest sticking with alumina, silicon carbide or diamond abrasives. My favorites are diamond stones, made of metal bases with either sintered abrasive or plated on (though the plated ones are easier to wear out). Fine India (probably the 320 grit side of your combo stone) is one of the few Norton stones that I really like and it can serve as an efficient middle grit stage in a progression, my recommendation for the next stage would be a fine (600 grit) EZE-LAP bench plate, that will still remove stock fairly quickly and leaves a moderately coarse working edge that is very useful for EDC tasks. The Spyderco medium ceramic will refine the toothiness off the diamond plate, and the fine Spyderco will give a nice polished edge if you want a smoother cutting edge.

As mentioned by others, the ceramic stones are not very good at actually removing much steel from an edge, compared to similar grit stones that are not as tightly bonded (or diamond plates), so they work best as finishing stage stones. Also if you see silver or gray streaks covering much of the face of a ceramic stone it's time to clean it, so it will cut again, comet, barkeeper's friend or a fine sandflex block (or rust eraser) will clean the surface easily.

[RLDubbya]

Haven't tries an Arkansas stone. Do they have advantages over spyderco ceramics?

For the buck, they tend to be bigger, so when I get angry with the cat, I can throw the Arkansas with slightly greater accuracy. I can come really close to knocking the cat in the testicles from across the room, without actually doing so. After all, I would never want to actually injure the cat, just trying to scare him.

I have a set of Arkansas stones I purchased in '77, my first set of stones.

They worked fine on AUS-6 and AUS-8; OK on VG-10. I struggled mightily trying to sharpen S30V and S90V; I thought I was going crazy - I would work on a knife for hours and barely get it moving towards sharp. But gosh, the SharpMaker worked fine. I started to think about my whole approach to sharpening.s

That's why I ended up with a WorkSharp, Ken Onion edition, and the Guided Blade Attachment. I use this combo for significant reprofiling work, and fixing damaged blades. I use the SharpMaker to sharpen the blade after fixing / reprofiling. That way, if there is any heat damage (IF), I'm removing the damaged steel by low speed hand work. The SharpMaker also gives me more of a chance to get a nicer finish to the edge. But I must admit this is very much a secondary priority as I can achieve quite a good finish with just the WorkSharp now that I've had more practice.

I then finish off with manual stropping on leather with green compound. If the blade doesn't need much work - if it just needs a quick touch-up, for example - I just use the strop & green compound.