VG10

[00max00]

I'll ask my question again since no one answered it. What is VG-10 not able to cut that other steels can? In what way does it underperform?

Well, this is a question that basically makes no sense like saying where is a place a BMW can go but a Honda can't? As we all know the fact doesn't drive BMW out of business because a Honda can go everywhere a BMW can. A knife in 420 can cut the same bread that one in VG10 can, but it is irrelevant to why we are always demand better things :cool:

[FCM415]

I'll ask my question again since no one answered it. What is VG-10 not able to cut that other steels can? In what way does it underperform?

Well, this is a question that basically makes no sense like saying where is a place a BMW can go but a Honda can't? As we all know the fact doesn't drive BMW out of business because a Honda can go everywhere a BMW can. A knife in 420 can cut the same bread that one in VG10 can, but it is irrelevant to why we are always demand better things :cool:

That's right but to bring the point home, the Hondas are far from obsolete.

I see common ground with you and the man you quoted.

[fanglekai]

I'll ask my question again since no one answered it. What is VG-10 not able to cut that other steels can? In what way does it underperform?

Well, this is a question that basically makes no sense like saying where is a place a BMW can go but a Honda can't? As we all know the fact doesn't drive BMW out of business because a Honda can go everywhere a BMW can. A knife in 420 can cut the same bread that one in VG10 can, but it is irrelevant to why we are always demand better things :cool:

My questions made perfect sense. Someone said the steel underperforms with no evidence or explanation as to why he said that. "Better" is what makes no sense. Better at what exactly? You have to define what attribute. There are ALWAYS tradeoffs.

[fanglekai]

In what way does it underperform?

Edge Retention..

Edge retention for what manner of blunting? What is the testing method that was used to determine this? What was cut and at what geometry? What was the stopping point?

[bh49]

I'll ask my question again since no one answered it. What is VG-10 not able to cut that other steels can? In what way does it underperform?

Well, this is a question that basically makes no sense like saying where is a place a BMW can go but a Honda can't? As we all know the fact doesn't drive BMW out of business because a Honda can go everywhere a BMW can. A knife in 420 can cut the same bread that one in VG10 can, but it is irrelevant to why we are always demand better things :cool:

Bad example. I am sure that Honda sells way more cars than BMW, certainly in US.

GO VG10 :) :D

[00max00]

I'll ask my question again since no one answered it. What is VG-10 not able to cut that other steels can? In what way does it underperform?

Well, this is a question that basically makes no sense like saying where is a place a BMW can go but a Honda can't? As we all know the fact doesn't drive BMW out of business because a Honda can go everywhere a BMW can. A knife in 420 can cut the same bread that one in VG10 can, but it is irrelevant to why we are always demand better things :cool:

Bad example. I am sure that Honda sells way more cars than BMW, certainly in US.

GO VG10 :) :D

Why? Honda sells more cars because it is cheap not because it is better. We buy Spydercos because it is better not because it is cheap. Cheap products will always outsell quality ones no matter how crappy they are. This is why the question I was responding makes little sense. If lesser knives start using the same steel, it's time to move on finding a better replacement.

[Bodog]

If lesser knives start using the same steel, it's time to move on finding a better replacement.

Pretty true. People may disagree and that's fine. But if you're talking about being better, then be better. When the lower class and lower priced competition can do what you do, it's time to rethink what you're doing and where you're going. If you can't think of anything, then take what you have and close up shop and go into a different field because you're about to get smashed by a lot of people hungrier for that money than you. You've been left behind. That's business. Be hungry or go home. Or consolidate and concentrate and get rid of anything that doesn't absolutely appeal to a small group of dedicated supporters and bring them what they can't find elsewhere and from there redesign and retool and rebuild and/or be happy with having a small business with a small handful of happy customers.

[fanglekai]

Cheap knives can use VG10 with no heat treatment. Same steel, horrible performance. The steel is only one factor and not even the most important component to determine performance.

[Bodog]

Cheap knives can use VG10 with no heat treatment. Same steel, horrible performance. The steel is only one factor and not even the most important component to determine performance.

It's about perception and keeping interest. Most people, genuinely, would be pretty happy with any 440 steel done right. The reason you rarely see them anymore? Lower class products started stamping that number all over everything and diminished the name.

[bh49]

I'll ask my question again since no one answered it. What is VG-10 not able to cut that other steels can? In what way does it underperform?

Well, this is a question that basically makes no sense like saying where is a place a BMW can go but a Honda can't? As we all know the fact doesn't drive BMW out of business because a Honda can go everywhere a BMW can. A knife in 420 can cut the same bread that one in VG10 can, but it is irrelevant to why we are always demand better things :cool:

Bad example. I am sure that Honda sells way more cars than BMW, certainly in US.

GO VG10 :) :D

Why? Honda sells more cars because it is cheap not because it is better. We buy Spydercos because it is better not because it is cheap. Cheap products will always outsell quality ones no matter how crappy they are. This is why the question I was responding makes little sense. If lesser knives start using the same steel, it's time to move on finding a better replacement.

You must be really rich, if you feel that Honda is cheap. And you are certainly in microscoping minority, if you feel that Hondas are crappy.
Without of doubts Spyderco makes some Ferraris of the knife world, but Spyderco makes many more Hondas, so average Joe, Honda driver can afford to buy and use his Spyderco (Honda level) knife

[SG89]

What did Honda ever do to you?

[murphjd25]

Hondas are good cars. VG10 rocks too!

[jabba359]

Wow, people are certainly passionate about their steel choices! :eek: I sure do enjoy a high performance steel, but since all the steels Spyderco uses are mid-tier or better, it all comes down to knife design for me. Give me a great design with VG-10 and I'll take it any day over a mediocre design with XYZ super-duper steel. Keep in mind that I'm not someone who pushes their knives to their full cutting potential day in and day out, so mid-tier is plenty for me.

I recognize that there are people out there that need every single last bit of performance out of their steel, so VG-10 may not meet their needs. That said, they also need to recognize that the majority of people using a knife on any given day don't need that much performance and aren't willing to pay the price (whether in dollars or time investment to sharpen/maintain the highest end steels) for the "better" steels. It's great the Spyderco offers sprint runs and a few production pieces in super high end steels for those that need it, but the majority of the people paying Spyderco's bills are buying mid-tier knives in VG-10 (Delica/Endura) and S30V/S35VN (Para 2, Native, Military), and even those are frequently offered in higher end steels for those that need/want to spend the extra money for additional performance.

[The Deacon]

Why? Honda sells more cars because it is cheap not because it is better. We buy Spydercos because it is better not because it is cheap. Cheap products will always outsell quality ones no matter how crappy they are. This is why the question I was responding makes little sense. If lesser knives start using the same steel, it's time to move on finding a better replacement.

Not exactly. The original Civics from 50 years ago may have been inexpensive, but no Honda automobile sold in the USA was ever "cheaply" built. Honda sells more cars because they have a stellar reputation for reliability and hold their value extremely well. When someone can own a car like that for less than they'd pay for a BMW, then it will sell well.

[00max00]

Why? Honda sells more cars because it is cheap not because it is better. We buy Spydercos because it is better not because it is cheap. Cheap products will always outsell quality ones no matter how crappy they are. This is why the question I was responding makes little sense. If lesser knives start using the same steel, it's time to move on finding a better replacement.

Not exactly. The original Civics from 50 years ago may have been inexpensive, but no Honda automobile sold in the USA was ever "cheaply" built. Honda sells more cars because they have a stellar reputation for reliability and hold their value extremely well. When someone can own a car like that for less than they'd pay for a BMW, then it will sell well.

No amount of "solidly built" could make a Honda a better driver's car. My definition of "better" is apparently differ significantly from yours because in my book, FWDs are infinitely inferior in term of driving dynamics, let's not to get to materials for a second. FWD was invented because they are CHEAP to make and offer slightly more interior volume, nothing else is better about it. Cheap is relative to what you compare against. Yes, a Honda is typically more expensive than a Kia. In this sense, I am not wrong. I am not even a BMW fan. Not because a Toyonda meets your transportation need stops enthusiasts demand better cars. To many, VG10 today is not good enough for a higher end production knife to stand out in a sea of lesser knives in the same steel. I pick Honda vs BMW example was supposedly making it easier for a non car guy to understand. Better example could be a Nissan vs an Infiniti, a Toyota vs Lexus, or a Honda vs Ferrari, but you get the point.

[00max00]

Why? Honda sells more cars because it is cheap not because it is better. We buy Spydercos because it is better not because it is cheap. Cheap products will always outsell quality ones no matter how crappy they are. This is why the question I was responding makes little sense. If lesser knives start using the same steel, it's time to move on finding a better replacement.

Not exactly. The original Civics from 50 years ago may have been inexpensive, but no Honda automobile sold in the USA was ever "cheaply" built. Honda sells more cars because they have a stellar reputation for reliability and hold their value extremely well. When someone can own a car like that for less than they'd pay for a BMW, then it will sell well.

No amount of "solidly built" could make a Honda a better driver's car. My definition of "better" is apparently differ significantly from yours because in my book, FWDs are infinitely inferior in term of driving dynamics, let's not to get to materials for a second. FWD was invented because they are CHEAP to make and offer slightly more interior volume, nothing else is better about it. Cheap is relative to what you compare against. Yes, a Honda is typically more expensive than a Kia. In this sense, I am not wrong. I am not even a BMW fan. Not because a Toyonda meets your transportation need stops enthusiasts demand better cars. To many, VG10 today is not good enough for a higher end production knife to stand out in a sea of lesser knives in the same steel. I pick Honda vs BMW example was supposedly making it easier for a non car guy to understand. Better example could be a Nissan vs an Infiniti, a Toyota vs Lexus, or a Honda vs Ferrari, but you get the point.

[Sharp Guy]

To many, VG10 today is not good enough for a higher end production knife to stand out in a sea of lesser knives in the same steel

Have you considered that maybe there isn't a Japanese stainless steel that's a better all around steel than VG10 for a similar price? I don't know for sure but I'd guess there probably isn't. You and I might be willing to pay a little more for those base models with better steel but your average user, who already thinks spending close to $70 on a Delica is a lot of money for a pocket knife, probably isn't.

For the majority of the buyers / your average users, who are buying the basic Delica, Endura, Dragonfly, etc VG10 is more than adequate. Most people could care less if their knife has the latest/greatest steel. Their more interested in the overall design of the knife and are happy if it stays sharp for a reasonable amount of time, can be sharpened fairly easy when needed, doesn't rust with normal use, and doesn't cost a fortune. VG10 has been doing that very well for a long time and continues to do so. Considering what they're probably upgrading from it is a premium steel.

So to answer your original question way back on page 1, if it's not broke why fix it?

Please forgive me if my points were redundant. I've been too busy reading about how Hondas stink :rolleyes: and haven't gone back to reread every post.

[bearfacedkiller]

So I ask the people who say VG10 is old news and due for a replacement what steel they recommend? This should be very telling in my opinion. Short of shipping US steels to Japan (which is a step in the wrong direction IMO) there simply isn't one. The Japanese options seem to be limited or at least cost prohibitive. We have HAP40 and ZDP which are not stainless and we have H1 which like ZDP is expensive and also a specialty steel. Super Gold has come up in discussions many times but sadly the idea has been shot down due to economics. I would rather see steels like Super Gold or HAP72 get used in Japanese folders but instead they are shipping S30V and K390 to Japan.

So what steel would or should be VG10's replacement? S30V? The answer should be obvious, so far there isn't one. VG10 offers the best bang for the buck of the Japanese options and is the most well balanced option at the moment.

[Bodog]

So I ask the people who say VG10 is old news and due for a replacement what steel they recommend? This should be very telling in my opinion. Short of shipping US steels to Japan (which is a step in the wrong direction IMO) there simply isn't one. The Japanese options seem to be limited or at least cost prohibitive. We have HAP40 and ZDP which are not stainless and we have H1 which like ZDP is expensive and also a specialty steel. Super Gold has come up in discussions many times but sadly the idea has been shot down due to economics. I would rather see steels like Super Gold or HAP72 get used in Japanese folders but instead they are shipping S30V and K390 to Japan.

So what steel would or should be VG10's replacement? S30V? The answer should be obvious, so far there isn't one. VG10 offers the best bang for the buck of the Japanese options and is the most well balanced option at the moment.

That's pretty true. Doesn't seem like there's a lot of options coming from Japan. And for the most part the stuff coming from Japan is the usually the lower end of the spyderco spectrum as far as materials and design features. It's quite a bit of the mentality "if it ain't broke don't fix it." But there are lower classed offerings at least stamping VG10 on stuff. The same thing happened with 440 class steels and basically tarnished 440C for all but the most old school people. VG10 isn't all that different from 440C and if these crap companies keep pushing things out with VG10 stamped on it, regardless if it's actually VG10, the steel will be looked at much the same way as most people look at 440C. It'll probably be a decade before that happens but still, it'll probably happen.

[00max00]

To many, VG10 today is not good enough for a higher end production knife to stand out in a sea of lesser knives in the same steel

Have you considered that maybe there isn't a Japanese stainless steel that's a better all around steel than VG10 for a similar price? I don't know for sure but I'd guess there probably isn't. You and I might be willing to pay a little more for those base models with better steel but your average user, who already thinks spending close to $70 on a Delica is a lot of money for a pocket knife, probably isn't.

For the majority of the buyers / your average users, who are buying the basic Delica, Endura, Dragonfly, etc VG10 is more than adequate. Most people could care less if their knife has the latest/greatest steel. Their more interested in the overall design of the knife and are happy if it stays sharp for a reasonable amount of time, can be sharpened fairly easy when needed, doesn't rust with normal use, and doesn't cost a fortune. VG10 has been doing that very well for a long time and continues to do so. Considering what they're probably upgrading from it is a premium steel.

So to answer your original question way back on page 1, if it's not broke why fix it?

Please forgive me if my points were redundant. I've been too busy reading about how Hondas stink :rolleyes: and haven't gone back to reread every post.

For budget conscious models, Delica & Endura, yes they are as good as they are. I prefer a better steel in others just to stay away from made-in-China VG10s.