where is Cliff Stamp?

[tripscheck'em]

I've been reading the comments of this guy named Cliff Stamp about various steels in my knife education journey. He used to post here regularly but hasn't in quite a few months, just wondering if anything has happened to him. I find his crusade against carbide to be humorous but also insightful.

[tvenuto]

He's certainly still posting over on his own forum at cliffstamp.com. I have limited brain-space for forums, otherwise I'd certainly be checking things out there from time to time. He had a polarizing personality, but I will say that he had a very strong understanding of testing and statistics, and shared my disdain for lack of rigor (which, in my opinion, is rife in our hobby).

I definitely wouldn't characterize him as anti-carbide. It was he who suggested maxamet if I'm not mistaken, which is actually a metal designed to be used when carbide tools lack sufficient toughness. However, I can see how you could perceive his posts that way, since the overwhelming trend has been to request steels with higher carbide fractions. This being the trend, often statements are parroted without proper context, which causes a snowball effect of misinformation, or at the very least, non-rigorous statements such as this one.*

The main reason he rubbed people the wrong way, I think, is that sometimes people are unable to differentiate between a preference and a factual statement. You are perfectly justified in saying: "I don't like oranges." However, you are not justified in saying "I don't eat oranges because they contain too much sodium." One is a preference, the other is wrong. However, if 20 people have mentioned the high sodium in oranges recently, the person making the statement is liable to get defensive of their position, which they feel is held by many others.

*As a thought experiment, I want you to imagine that the steels in the linked post were reversed. How many protesting posts that would have such a request engendered, even though reversing the steels has no more meaning than the current request? What I mean by this is: 10V is not better than VG-10 if you care about corrosion resistance, in fact it's quite worse. So to say "better" in general is meaningless, you need to specify what properties you desire. As it stands, no one has protested or corrected the post.

[vivi]

Excellent post, tvenuto.

Wear resistance isn't the only factor in choosing a blade steel. In certain applications toughness or corrosion resistance can matter more.

I also appluad Cliff for pointing out the steel needs to fit the design. For example, you can find everything from 2 inch bladed folders to large chopping knives made out of S30V. Is it the right steel for every knife its being used in? I think not.

[SpyderEdgeForever]

Cliff Stamp is one of the most important people regarding blade steel properties and materials engineering and science knowledge that is presently on the planet Earth, as far as I am concerned. I really enjoyed the discussions on here that I had with him and others on these topics.

I appreciate his rigorous scientific tests and real-world knife use tests that he published on his site and on here.

[Cujobob]

I appreciate anyone who tries to take a scientific approach to the improvement of knives or really any product. Blade forums was full of people just spouting the same things about steels which had everyone suggesting steels came in a good, better, best fashion.

My other major hobby is high end audio and it took years and years of a few people educating others to get rid of a lot of the snake oil that existed there. Those who tried to approach audio as a science were usually not appreciated.

[Archimedes]

I like Cliff. His test like 15 years ago or more on the original Busse Battle Mistress was really an interesting part of my knife journey. I still have a couple of those old straight handle Battle Mistress' because of his tests. He sold me. I also think he comes across as kind of an internet know it all and can really rub people the wrong way. He does not bother me, but I can see how people can get kind of ground down by his unrelenting style.LOL!

I think you can tell someone who's been around the internet knife world if they know who Cliff is. Dare I say it, he is kind of a legend, for better or worse depending on who you ask.

[Donut]

I feel like he is a necessary argument if we want to have opposing opinions. If we don't want to think, then we don't need him at all.

I like having him around, I like his opinions. I feel like things opened up when he got here. Some people like to oppose Cliff in general with very little reasoning behind it, I haven't been listening any of their opinions recently.

[BTG]

I was just asking about him the other day, I miss his posts, although a lot of it goes over my head, but I've learned a few things...especially in the sharpening area.....I don't know how many of you are familiar with Cheers, but I always picture Cliff looking and sounding like Cliff Clavin from the show, he knew everything also, kinda like how you put a face on a radio voice.

[awa54]

I appreciate anyone who tries to take a scientific approach to the improvement of knives or really any product. Blade forums was full of people just spouting the same things about steels which had everyone suggesting steels came in a good, better, best fashion.

My other major hobby is high end audio and it took years and years of a few people educating others to get rid of a lot of the snake oil that existed there. Those who tried to approach audio as a science were usually not appreciated.

Don't get me wrong, I'm a huge proponent of science in the development of audio electronics (and knives too!), but the problem comes when people using science as a tool claim to be able to answer all questions about a subject. There are so many variables inherent to the understanding of even simple processes, that to claim an authoritative understanding of almost anything is hubris. True science develops as our understanding grows and new questions are examined, the state of the art is ever advancing. Plus many things are subjective, especially when human interaction is involved... does a knife fit your hand and do the work you need it to? then that's a great knife for *you*, I might hate it! ...doesn't matter if the steel can make 10,000 cuts through manila rope if it's the wrong length blade and doesn't fit your hand. Audio is an even bigger can of worms, talk about unknown variables and a subjective interface!

I like Cliff. His test like 15 years ago or more on the original Busse Battle Mistress was really an interesting part of my knife journey. I still have a couple of those old straight handle Battle Mistress' because of his tests. He sold me. I also think he comes across as kind of an internet know it all and can really rub people the wrong way. He does not bother me, but I can see how people can get kind of ground down by his unrelenting style.LOL!

I think you can tell someone who's been around the internet knife world if they know who Cliff is. Dare I say it, he is kind of a legend, for better or worse depending on who you ask.

I think Cliff can come off as a bit of a pedant, especially to those who have never hung around scientists or engineers.

On balance I enjoy his posts and value the information that he generously shares about sharpening, knives and steel parameters, for that I'm more than willing to accommodate his style of communication! Whenever I spot a post from Cliff here I make sure to check out the thread, there is almost always new information or at least a well considered perspective to learn from.

[Cliff Stamp]

Awhile ago I started volunteering more which drastically reduced the free time I have for hobbies. I generally can spend between 1-2 hours a day answering questions about various things on line and I have to do a kind of triage in picking where to respond since my time was so restricted. I try to first respond to anyone in need of help or is confused first, and I get a fair amount of them. If there is something that you would want to hear my perspective on, or feels just needs my attention, then just drop me an email or send me a PM here as I get emails on that.

As for high carbide steels, I have no more of a crusade against high carbide steels as I do for low carbide steels. I don't even understand what that would mean as it is just an aspect of steels. It would be like having a crusade against the letter T.

Carbide volume is a factor in several steel properties, it increases some, decreases others. What makes a steel suitable for an application is matching those properties to the demands of the application. Some applications favor high carbide steels, some do not, hence why we have both types. I have high carbide knives that work well, and high carbide knives that don't for those reasons. Just like I have low carbide knives that work well and those that don't, as again they just are either matched well to the application or don't.

As a point of interest, I was the first person (that I know of) to request and even get made some of the highest carbide tool steels in custom knives, often sourcing them from companies and providing them to makers and getting custom HT done to maximize carbide volume, martensite formation and minimize grain size (based on metallurgical data). I was discussing 10V for example in knives in the late nineties, have one of the first prototypes in 10V from Phil Wilson of one of his designs, have one of the very few 15V custom knives, suggested Maxamet as a Mule alloy, have 121REX knives, had SM-100 knives made by multiple different makers for evaluation and right now have two S90V large chopping knives (~0.3" stock) being custom made with two different custom HT. One HT maximizes toughness the other wear resistance and strength. I am curious of the practical difference in use. I don't think either will be functionally more practical than a knife in 1075, but part of the fun is seeing just how much you think you know matching the actual reality of what is.

And yeah, I still carry/use Spyderco :

-Vagabond (because it is functional and cool/unique)
-Paramilitary (because it is a Paramilitary)

[tripscheck'em]

Awhile ago I started volunteering more which drastically reduced the free time I have for hobbies. I generally can spend between 1-2 hours a day answering questions about various things on line and I have to do a kind of triage in picking where to respond since my time was so restricted. I try to first respond to anyone in need of help or is confused first, and I get a fair amount of them. If there is something that you would want to hear my perspective on, or feels just needs my attention, then just drop me an email or send me a PM here as I get emails on that.

As for high carbide steels, I have no more of a crusade against high carbide steels as I do for low carbide steels. I don't even understand what that would mean as it is just an aspect of steels. It would be like having a crusade against the letter T.

Carbide volume is a factor in several steel properties, it increases some, decreases others. What makes a steel suitable for an application is matching those properties to the demands of the application. Some applications favor high carbide steels, some do not, hence why we have both types. I have high carbide knives that work well, and high carbide knives that don't for those reasons. Just like I have low carbide knives that work well and those that don't, as again they just are either matched well to the application or don't.

As a point of interest, I was the first person (that I know of) to request and even get made some of the highest carbide tool steels in custom knives, often sourcing them from companies and providing them to makers and getting custom HT done to maximize carbide volume, martensite formation and minimize grain size (based on metallurgical data). I was discussing 10V for example in knives in the late nineties, have one of the first prototypes in 10V from Phil Wilson of one of his designs, have one of the very few 15V custom knives, suggested Maxamet as a Mule alloy, have 121REX knives, had SM-100 knives made by multiple different makers for evaluation and right now have two S90V large chopping knives (~0.3" stock) being custom made with two different custom HT. One HT maximizes toughness the other wear resistance and strength. I am curious of the practical difference in use. I don't think either will be functionally more practical than a knife in 1075, but part of the fun is seeing just how much you think you know matching the actual reality of what is.

And yeah, I still carry/use Spyderco :

-Vagabond (because it is functional and cool/unique)
-Paramilitary (because it is a Paramilitary)

totally cool, wasn't trying to start anything, I was just honestly worried that something bad might have happened.

I really want to know how those s90v chopping knives perform. Its a truism that "carbon" steel is the only steel large knives should use because of impact, but how true is that?

[Cliff Stamp]

I really want to know how those s90v chopping knives perform.

One of them has a HT that you should really not use on that kind of knife. In ideal circumstances it will be 62/63 HRC, have a very high secondary carbide distribution, full martensite and very strong secondary hardening. This produces very high strength and wear resistance, but a very low toughness. I was originally going to actually minimize the toughness by hitting the secondary hardness peak directly but after talking to Roman I became convinced that particular cycle likely would not even maximize/strength or wear resistance. That knife could actually blow out dramatically and/or even suffer gross failure. Because of this I likely will do some edge retention work first.

The other knife is more interesting because it is designed to maximize the toughness (low soak, low temper, no cryo, retained austenite), and it should be able to resist gross failure. The problem is that there is not a lot of information on those steels in those applications because no one in industry would recommend S90V as an impact steel no matter how you hardened it. But the question for me is still interesting, just how bad is it when it is at its best toughness wise? Then, assuming it doesn't have any significant issues the real interesting part starts. I have similar knives in 3V, H13, and pretty much every steel you can imagine, does S90V have any advantage in regards to edge retention in chopping wood and ease of maintenance.

Its a truism that "carbon" steel is the only steel large knives should use because of impact, but how true is that?

Carbon steel has a very strict definition in metallurgy but outside of it it gets a bit vague. It usually means non-stainless. However if I had to pick between 420J2 or an UHC steel (1.5% carbon for example) in a large chopping knife I would likely pick the 420J2 one. The high carbon steel would tend to be prone to embrittlement easily, very easy to blow the grain size, could easily end up with large carbide networks, etc. . I would want to be really comfortable with the person doing the HT and ideally have them run some kind of secondary cycles to get the grain size very small and the carbide distribution very homogeneous.

[Blerv]

Welcome back Cliff :). Kudos for the volunteer work.

[ChrisinHove]

Welcome back Cliff :). Kudos for the volunteer work.

+1

[Joshua J.]

As for high carbide steels, I have no more of a crusade against high carbide steels as I do for low carbide steels. I don't even understand what that would mean as it is just an aspect of steels. It would be like having a crusade against the letter T.

Cliff, would it be more accurate to say you're on a crusade against large grain size?

The gist of everything I've been reading seems to be that minimizing grain size is universally beneficial, and shrinking grain size further is a subject worth pursuing.

[Fred Sanford]

Good to "see ya" Cliff.

I have always respected Cliff and his contributions to the knife world. He has always been a good dude in my book, and I do enjoy reading his posts.

[JD Spydo]

I'm glad to see Cliff back :) I actually learned a lot about metal properties and the variants of blade steels reading his in depth and very informative posts Sometimes people that do have in depth knowledge on different subjects tend to come across as being intolerant of others opinions. But everything I seen Cliff post he certainly had his ducks in a perfect row and had hard facts to back them up with.

Well Sir I hope we see you posting again when you get a lot of your volunteer work done.

Also his in depth knowledge on abrasives is mind boggling as well. I've never heard anyone yet who knew the capabilities of all the different abrasive materials more than Cliff has. I not only like the guy I actually envy the guy and there are really very few people on the planet that I do truly envy. I'm sure his wealth of knowledge on all the aspects of our favorite hobby came from years of very hard studying and very hard work. I can really appreciate anyone who has paid their dues like Cliff has. Good to see you back Sir :)

[bearfacedkiller]

It is nice to know that if you throw up the Cliff Stamp bat signal that he will come. :)

Thanks for poking your head in again. You suggested that Spyderco make a mule in Maxamet and that came to fruition. I am sure I am not the only one who could learn a bit about Maxamet now that it, and you, are here. Have you got your hands on one of these Cliff?

[Nate]

Cliff, would it be more accurate to say you're on a crusade against large grain size?

The gist of everything I've been reading seems to be that minimizing grain size is universally beneficial, and shrinking grain size further is a subject worth pursuing.

Cliff is a radical dude. If he's on any crusade, I'd say it's just for knowledge, almost without regard to the subject.

As a sort of random nod to him, the whole thread is good, but his synopses of Naked and Afraid episodes that start about a third of the way down the page here are super entertaining.

[Donut]

I really don't like the letter T, maybe I should change my name to "Donu_". :)