Why Laminates?

[aesmith]

Hi,

Sorry if this was already discussed, but I wonder why the HAP40 blades are laminated rather than all made from HAP40. From what little I understand laminated blades used to be made years ago to minimise use of expensive steel, for example old plane irons. Also and getting more out of my comfort zone wasn't there something to do with differential hardening or tempering, so the exposed edge would get hardened while the main body remains tough. I would have thought that neither would apply nowadays as I would have thought the extra work of laminating would outweigh the saving in material.

Thanks,

Tony S

[paladin]

I think you answered your own question-- less expense & more resilient, springy, tough spine-- that's the main advantages, at least.

[Evil D]

Usually you'll see a more corrosion resistant steel cladding with a carbon steel core. This helps to minimize corrosion.

[The Deacon]

Probably easier to work with too, as most of what's being cut and ground away is softer steel. So less costly to process.

[Jazz]

Plus they look cool. Obviously not why they're done, but a bonus.

[The Deacon]

Plus they look cool. Obviously not why they're done, but a bonus.

Except when they're uneven or not the same height of both sides, then they're just one more thing for OCD's to whine about. :D

[Jazz]

Plus they look cool. Obviously not why they're done, but a bonus.

Except when they're uneven or not the same height of both sides, then they're just one more thing for OCD's to whine about. :D

Yes, I have a SB Delica that's like that, but I try to enjoy one side at a time. :p

[The Deacon]

Plus they look cool. Obviously not why they're done, but a bonus.

Except when they're uneven or not the same height of both sides, then they're just one more thing for OCD's to whine about. :D

Yes, I have a SB Delica that's like that, but I try to enjoy one side at a time. :p

:D It doesn't bother me, but I know there are folks whose day would be ruined if they got something like this...

http://paulberetta.com/images/feb_07/caly3_left_02.jpg

...especially when the other side looks like this...

[The Deacon]

Plus they look cool. Obviously not why they're done, but a bonus.

Except when they're uneven or not the same height of both sides, then they're just one more thing for OCD's to whine about. :D

Yes, I have a SB Delica that's like that, but I try to enjoy one side at a time. :p

:D It doesn't bother me, but I know there are folks whose day would be totally ruined if they got something like this...

...especially when the other side looks like this...

[Evil D]

When I first got my ZDP Caly 3 I thought the laminate was the coolest thing I'd ever seen. It seemed so high tech and seemed to suit the knife. I don't like it so much on a FRN knife. Overall I definitely prefer solid blades.

[aesmith]

Didn't realise ZDP was laminated as well. Any others?

[Evil D]

Didn't realise ZDP was laminated as well. Any others?

It depends on the model. I believe the ZDP Stretch is solid and I know the Delica and Endura are solid. I believe the people who did the Caly 3 have issues working with solid ZDP but can work with the laminate.

[Blerv]

I think it just depends on who's processing the steel and their comfort level. That and there are certain steels that are fairly extreme whether in how brittle they are (ZDP-189) or how corrosion susceptible they are (Super Blue). I have a very reground Stretch that hasn't snapped in half so while it could be "tougher" it's certainly not a glass sword.

I enjoy the variety and tend to trust the maker. Usually we get to benefit from an outstanding product that performs FAR beyond it's price so it's easy to be content.

Didn't realise ZDP was laminated as well. Any others?

From memory...

Laminates:
ZDP-189
Jess Horn Lightweight
Calypso Jr (sprint & exclusive)
Caly 3 ZDP-189
Caly 3.5 ZDP-189

Super Blue
All FRN sprints

HAP-40
All FRN sprints


Solids:
ZDP-189
All FRN production models

Super Blue
Caly3 & Caly 3.5 sprint

[The Deacon]

I think it just depends on who's processing the steel and their comfort level. That and there are certain steels that are fairly extreme whether in how brittle they are (ZDP-189) or how corrosion susceptible they are (Super Blue). I have a very reground Stretch that hasn't snapped in half so while it could be "tougher" it's certainly not a glass sword.

I enjoy the variety and tend to trust the maker. Usually we get to benefit from an outstanding product that performs FAR beyond it's price so it's easy to be content.

Didn't realise ZDP was laminated as well. Any others?

From memory...

Laminates:
ZDP-189
Jess Horn Lightweight
Calypso Jr (sprint & exclusive)
Caly 3 ZDP-189
Caly 3.5 ZDP-189

Super Blue
All FRN sprints

HAP-40
All FRN sprints


Solids:
ZDP-189
All FRN production models

Super Blue
Caly3 & Caly 3.5 sprint[/quote}

Think the only ones you missed were the VG-10 core Damascus blades. Harder to think of them as laminates, but that's what they are, a VG-10 core laminated between 2 pieces of Damascus.

Used on various Delica and Endura Sprints and Limited Editions, the bolstered CF Caly 3, and the 2 Nishisin Glass Stretch Sprints.

[bdblue]

Sal has said that some of the recent models were made laminated because the manufacturing partners preferred to make them that way. I'm not sure I understand why unless it is the ease of machining. Depending on the cost of the materials it doesn't seem that it would save any money these days.

I first saw laminated knives when looking at Morseth knives in the A.G. Russell catalog. I thought it was a real interesting idea. At some point I had bought a folder at a gun show and discovered that it was laminated. I think it has a possibility of making a knife less resistant to breaking and maybe it does but there are a lot more factors involved. I think today I would prefer a knife to not be laminated.

[harronek]

My Delica has an uneven lamination line on one side .
I couldn't care less about it , and it in no way hinders the function of the knife .





Ken

[SpyderEdgeForever]

A laminated steel knife blade can be put into a vise and bent, and then bent back straight, and still perform with the same excellent cutting performance, if made right. Try that with a non-laminated steel blade and watch for chipping and steel splintering.

The Scandinavians and Japanese are the best knife-makers in the world for laminated blades.

[aesmith]

I see that some modern replacement plane irons are laminated, however if these are like the old ones the hard steel is laminated just onto one side of the blade, not encased in the soft steel.

[The Deacon]

I see that some modern replacement plane irons are laminated, however if these are like the old ones the hard steel is laminated just onto one side of the blade, not encased in the soft steel.

That would certainly make sense on a plane iron, given that they're ground on one side only. If you had soft steel laminated on both sides, you'd be cutting with the soft steel.

Same would hold for a true chisel ground knife blade, you'd want the "good" steel on the flat side and the softer steel on the grind side. IIRC, there have even been some chisel ground knives with CF laminated on he grind side. As with chisel grinds themselves, knifemakers are more concerned with looks than performance, so it's usually done on the wrong side for right handed users.

[gdwtvb]

Most steels have different properties. For example while S30V is a great blade steel, it is nearly impossible to make into a high or mirror polished blade. Others like H1 scratch easily. It comes down to choice. While our grandfathers had and used carbon steel blades pretty exclusively, my wife would consider a kitchen knife that had a dark patina like granddad's to be 'dirty' and unfit for use. In her lifetime she has only used stainless knives.

While swords may need different steels to have a hard sharp edge and also be more resilient to breakage, it is correct that pocket knives don't usually require this. Still, many people wouldn't want a full patina on their blade. The cost and time spent machining may be substantially less when a blade is clad in a softer steel. It's something different, we're knife guys, we want cool and unique knives. Spyderco has always pushed forward to give us the options of getting and trying out things that are are on the cutting edge of technology. When they sell well, they often become regular production items, like how we have regular production S110V knives now.

Don't discount aesthetics. Small changes can make a huge difference in how a knife looks, is perceived, and ultimately how well it sells. I doubt the techno would be even half as popular if it was high polish titanium with a high polish blade. Laminated steel gives us more options in how a knife looks. I like options.

Grizz