?-Sharpmaker strokes to get ZDP-189 or other hard steels razor sharp..

[wsdavies]

I have no problem getting CTS-BD1, VG-10 or S30V razor razor sharp using the method of 20 strokes per side (per stone) as discussing the included DVD. If it takes 20 for VG-10 then what's the prescribed amount for ZDP-189 or like S90V? Would it be like 40 per side, per stone? Ideas? Experiences? :spyder:

[SolidState]

I wish that's all it took. With ZDP you go until it is done.

[JD Spydo]

I wish that's all it took. With ZDP you go until it is done.

I totally agree with "SolidState">> I don't go for so many strokes on each side of any type of steel. I just keep going until I get the desired effect I'm looking for. Obviously it's going to take a few more strokes with a harder/tougher steel like ZDP-189 but you'll get the hang of it very quickly I'm sure.

Reprofiling and prepping the knife are the 2 most important steps anyway and that's where the most work is.

One thing you want to keep in mind is to not let it get so dull that it becomes a major sharpening job. Most of the time I'm just doing fine tuning and touch ups on most of my blades anyway.

But to say that there is an exact number of strokes is a pretty general piece of information. You just have to go until you get the desired effect.

Also if you're new to the Sharpmaker I highly recommend you get the diamond stones and the ultra fine stones. To me it wouldn't be a complete kit without both those additional sets of stones.

There are some really good YOUTUBE videos that I've been looking at and some of them have some excellent tips. Good luck on your new venture

[jackknifeh]

I have no problem getting CTS-BD1, VG-10 or S30V razor razor sharp using the method of 20 strokes per side (per stone) as discussing the included DVD. If it takes 20 for VG-10 then what's the prescribed amount for ZDP-189 or like S90V? Would it be like 40 per side, per stone? Ideas? Experiences? :spyder:

I think double the strokes is a fair estimate to start with. Hopefully, you will only have one time consuming sharpening (profiling) with a very hard steel blade. Decide the edge angle you want and take the time to achieve it. Then use a small edge bevel (micro-bevel) to actually get it sharp. Removing steel from a wide bevel takes far more time than it does when touching up a very narrow edge bevel. Therefore, when the blade STARTS to loose it's edge, performing a quick touch up at the higher edge bevel angle will not take long at all. This helps a lot to keep a sharp edge with less effort IMO.


Jack

[PanChango]

I wish that's all it took. With ZDP you go until it is done.

Re-profiling ZDP really taught me patience.

It will be ready when it's ready, but it takes a really wicked edge.

[Will Rogers]

If you can sharpen VG10 using 20 strokes per side for each of the stone positions, that sounds pretty good to me. That means you can sharpen a knife in somewhere between 5-10 minutes. I can set aside time to do that regularly.

But some people on this board are saying they don't know how long it takes to sharpen a harder steel like ZDP-189 - you just have to keep sharpening it until it "feels" right. And you have to have patience. So now we have gone from something that was relatively fun and easy - sharpening a knife in 5-10 minutes - to knives that might require - who knows? - an hour to sharpen? Two hours? In fact, to even ask the question shows that you are not really a serious knife person - you are a dilletante. So what if you work 8-9 hours a day to support your family, and don't have 2 more hours to spend after the kids are in bed to retire to the garage to sharpen your latest high grade steel knife.

I've seen this in countless hobbies - people come to the hobby to have fun, but not to give their lives over to it. But there are always the high priests of the hobby who will tell you that if you're not dedicating 16 hours per week to it, you're just not really dedicated to the hobby the way they -the pros - are.

[twinboysdad]

If you can sharpen VG10 using 20 strokes per side for each of the stone positions, that sounds pretty good to me. That means you can sharpen a knife in somewhere between 5-10 minutes. I can set aside time to do that regularly.

But some people on this board are saying they don't know how long it takes to sharpen a harder steel like ZDP-189 - you just have to keep sharpening it until it "feels" right. And you have to have patience. So now we have gone from something that was relatively fun and easy - sharpening a knife in 5-10 minutes - to knives that might require - who knows? - an hour to sharpen? Two hours? In fact, to even ask the question shows that you are not really a serious knife person - you are a dilletante. So what if you work 8-9 hours a day to support your family, and don't have 2 more hours to spend after the kids are in bed to retire to the garage to sharpen your latest high grade steel knife.

I've seen this in countless hobbies - people come to the hobby to have fun, but not to give their lives over to it. But there are always the high priests of the hobby who will tell you that if you're not dedicating 16 hours per week to it, you're just not really dedicated to the hobby the way they -the pros - are.

I agree many hobbies are that way, for me working out and the gun world can take that tone, but I don't see where anyone here was being dickish? They politely were saying there is no set strokes, and although I don't own any ZDP I agree. My Pingo is harder to sharpen than my Caly3.5, and sometime I am more skillful than others. Many don't grasp the SM out of the gate, so saying "yes, 40 strokes" is being untruthful. How dull is it? How good are you on the SM? What model are we discussing? This board rarely gets snobbish like the "if you aren't sleeping 8 solid hours, you just aren't prioritizing Crossfit, stop wasting our time" guys

[Evil D]

If you can sharpen VG10 using 20 strokes per side for each of the stone positions, that sounds pretty good to me. That means you can sharpen a knife in somewhere between 5-10 minutes. I can set aside time to do that regularly.

But some people on this board are saying they don't know how long it takes to sharpen a harder steel like ZDP-189 - you just have to keep sharpening it until it "feels" right. And you have to have patience. So now we have gone from something that was relatively fun and easy - sharpening a knife in 5-10 minutes - to knives that might require - who knows? - an hour to sharpen? Two hours? In fact, to even ask the question shows that you are not really a serious knife person - you are a dilletante. So what if you work 8-9 hours a day to support your family, and don't have 2 more hours to spend after the kids are in bed to retire to the garage to sharpen your latest high grade steel knife.

I've seen this in countless hobbies - people come to the hobby to have fun, but not to give their lives over to it. But there are always the high priests of the hobby who will tell you that if you're not dedicating 16 hours per week to it, you're just not really dedicated to the hobby the way they -the pros - are.

Fun to me might be miserable to you. People take pleasure from hobbies in different ways. Also consider that you probably aren't completely destroying the edge on a ZDP knife on a daily basis to require spending 2 hours of your evening getting it back to sharp. If that's the case, then ZDP is clearly not the steel for you or there is probably a better tool for the job than a pocket knife of any steel type. Most people will get by fine making 20-30 stokes daily on ZDP and that'll be enough to keep it sharp so long as there's no damage to it. These types of steel may require lots of time to reprofile but keeping them sharp take barely any more routine maintenance than any other steel. It's only a big deal when you're resetting the angle of the whole bevel or you let it get too dull between sharpening or you have to hone out a chip. It's not like every time it gets dull you have to spend 2 hours to get it sharp again.

Beyond that, we high priests just use our blessed Edge Pros to reprofile our knives and we can reprofile practically any steel we choose in less time than it takes you to watch an episode of your favorite TV show.

[Surfingringo]

If you can sharpen VG10 using 20 strokes per side for each of the stone positions, that sounds pretty good to me. That means you can sharpen a knife in somewhere between 5-10 minutes. I can set aside time to do that regularly.

But some people on this board are saying they don't know how long it takes to sharpen a harder steel like ZDP-189 - you just have to keep sharpening it until it "feels" right. And you have to have patience. So now we have gone from something that was relatively fun and easy - sharpening a knife in 5-10 minutes - to knives that might require - who knows? - an hour to sharpen? Two hours? In fact, to even ask the question shows that you are not really a serious knife person - you are a dilletante. So what if you work 8-9 hours a day to support your family, and don't have 2 more hours to spend after the kids are in bed to retire to the garage to sharpen your latest high grade steel knife.

I've seen this in countless hobbies - people come to the hobby to have fun, but not to give their lives over to it. But there are always the high priests of the hobby who will tell you that if you're not dedicating 16 hours per week to it, you're just not really dedicated to the hobby the way they -the pros - are.

The reason that nobody has provided a specific answer is because no one has asked a specific question. Asking "how many strokes does it take to sharpen zdp189" is like asking "how may hits does it take to drive a nail?" No one can answer that based on the given data. What is the nail being driven into? Concrete? Wood? What kind of wood? How big of a nail? How much does the hammer weigh? Who is swinging it? How hard? etc.

The comparable questions for the op's question would be...How dull is the knife? Is there edge damage? Is the knife apexed? At what angle are you sharpening? What angle is the existing edge bevel? Are you sharpening the entire edge bevel or micro-beveling?

Since the OP didn't specify, lets assume that we are talking about a knife that has a clean 30 degree edge bevel that has lost its bite but is not extremely dull. Lets also assume that when we resharpen we are talking about using a 40 degree microbevel. A knife in that condition in vg10 can be sharpened to very high (near hair whittling sharpness) with nothing more than 15-30 strokes on the flats of the brown rods. A knife in the same condition in s110v will take about twice as many strokes to reach the same level. (Obviously I'm ball parking here but that's about what i've seen). I don't have much experience with zdp189, but I doubt its much worse than s110v, if any.

In general though, if you are counting strokes to determine if your knife is sharp enough, you are going to get inconsistent results. As others have said you sharpen until it is sharp. Sorry, but that's the correct answer whether you like the sound of it or not. :) As to your concerns about it taking too long, if any knife is taking 2 hours to sharpen then you're doing it wrong. A touchup on a microbevel shouldn't take more than a few minutes (or less). Even a full reprofile (which doesn't have to be done very often) shouldn't take more than a half hour with the right stones.

[JD Spydo]

If "wsdavies" doesn't have the diamond rods for the 204 Sharpmaker then he's probably beating his head against the wall so to speak. Because as hard as ZDP-189 is it's really going to takes a seriously hard abrasive like diamond to make reprofiling an easier job. The ceramic stones that come with the 204 Sharpmaker kit are pretty much what I call "finishing stones".

Because the grits on the ceramic 204 Sharpmaker rods are the same as they are on the Spyderco 302 Benchstones. And I never use my 302 Benchstones on a really dull knife until I've gone through the steps of "re-profiling". Those ceramic stones in my humble opinion are to work on a blade that already has an established apex.

It's like EVIL D pointed out >> if the blade is as dull as a kitchen butter knife then you've got a lot of work to do with one of the more aggressive abrasives before even thinking about using the ceramic stones. The title/concept of the 204 Sharpmaker is kind of a misnomer>> it really should be called the "Sharp-Maintainer" rather than the Sharpmaker IMO. Oh don't get me wrong because I wouldn't trade either one of my Sharpmaker units for anything but I'm also being realistic as well.

Do your re-profiling prep before even thinking about a finished edge.

[dplafoll]

I have a Dragonfly 2 in ZDP, and I let it get dull because I was a newbie at the time and didn't have any sharpening equipment that would work on a steel like that. I got a Sharpmaker for Xmas and I got the DF2 back to sharp, but it took a LOT of time on the SM as I don't yet have the diamond rods. In my opinion, you should either go get the diamond rods, or you should send it off to be sharpened professionally and then use the SM for maintenance.

[Will Rogers]

If you can sharpen VG10 using 20 strokes per side for each of the stone positions, that sounds pretty good to me. That means you can sharpen a knife in somewhere between 5-10 minutes. I can set aside time to do that regularly.

But some people on this board are saying they don't know how long it takes to sharpen a harder steel like ZDP-189 - you just have to keep sharpening it until it "feels" right. And you have to have patience. So now we have gone from something that was relatively fun and easy - sharpening a knife in 5-10 minutes - to knives that might require - who knows? - an hour to sharpen? Two hours? In fact, to even ask the question shows that you are not really a serious knife person - you are a dilletante. So what if you work 8-9 hours a day to support your family, and don't have 2 more hours to spend after the kids are in bed to retire to the garage to sharpen your latest high grade steel knife.

I've seen this in countless hobbies - people come to the hobby to have fun, but not to give their lives over to it. But there are always the high priests of the hobby who will tell you that if you're not dedicating 16 hours per week to it, you're just not really dedicated to the hobby the way they -the pros - are.

I agree many hobbies are that way, for me working out and the gun world can take that tone, but I don't see where anyone here was being dickish? They politely were saying there is no set strokes, and although I don't own any ZDP I agree. My Pingo is harder to sharpen than my Caly3.5, and sometime I am more skillful than others. Many don't grasp the SM out of the gate, so saying "yes, 40 strokes" is being untruthful. How dull is it? How good are you on the SM? What model are we discussing? This board rarely gets snobbish like the "if you aren't sleeping 8 solid hours, you just aren't prioritizing Crossfit, stop wasting our time" guys

Actually, I was the only one who was being dickish. Just frustrated by my inability to sharpen ADP-189. I should stick to VG-10.

[Surfingringo]

Actually, I was the only one who was being dickish. Just frustrated by my inability to sharpen ADP-189. I should stick to VG-10.

Hey Will, if you are using the sharpmaker and the diamond stones then no steel is really that hard to sharpen. It might take you a half hour of work to get your bevels set to 30 degrees, but after that you can touch the steel up with just a few strokes at the 40 degree setting on the SM. You should be able to get is razor sharp in just a few minutes.


I wrote out a little step by step for sharpening a dull knife on the sharpmaker last year. I'll copy and paste it here. Not sure if you'll find it useful but it can't hurt.

1. With the diamond rods in the 30 degree slots make alternating passes until you have a nice clean apex along your entire edge. There are many ways to determine if you have an apex...use your thumb, magic marker the edge bevel, feel or look for a burr (though its better not to create a big burr). Depending on where your edge bevel was when you started, this step can take a few minutes or up to an hour. Do not move on from this step until you have a clean apex along the entire edge.
2. From there, if you want, you can choose to work through the stones on the 30 degree setting. This is not necessary but will polish up the bevel a bit and can help to remove any burr if you didn't get a clean apex.
3. Next insert the brown rods (flats) into the 40 degree setting. Now you are putting on a microbevel. This will quickly clean up the apex and give you a very high level of sharpness. It only takes a few light passes. Start with a half dozen light passes on the flats of the browns and check your edge. That might be all it takes.
4. From there you can refine your edge by working through the fine/uf rods at the 40 degree setting. Remember, at this point you are working on a tiny microbevel so it takes very little pressure and very few passes to have an effect.
5. Ta-dah....now your pocket knife is whittling hairs.

Hope this helps some. There's more than one way to skin a cat, this is just what I do, and I just wanted to lay out a simple formula. If you correctly do what I lined out above you will be able to get all your knives sharper than "factory". Remember...Do not skimp on step 1. Thats really the entire sharpening process. The rest is just cleaning up and refining the edge you created. Unless you get the first step right, none of the other steps will have any effect.

[Will Rogers]

Surfgringo,

Thanks for your extremely clear instructions - (more than my churlish post deserves). I don't have the diamond rods - just the brown and white ones the Sharpmaker came with. I should probably invest in the diamond rods. Just to make sure I understand this, do the diamond rods take off steel faster than the brown rods, and the brown rods take off steel faster than the white ones? So you use the diamond rods first to create the apex, and followed by the brown and white rods to "clean up" the edge? Also, after watching Sal's Sharpmaker video, I know that he recommends the 40 degree edge for general EDC. So what is the benefit of first using the 30 degree slots, followed by the 40 degree for a micro-bevel? How does this differ from the video instructions?
Thanks again for your help.

[Will Rogers]

Surfgringo,

Thanks for your extremely clear instructions - (more than my churlish post deserves). I don't have the diamond rods - just the brown and white ones the Sharpmaker came with. I should probably invest in the diamond rods. Just to make sure I understand this, do the diamond rods take off steel faster than the brown rods, and the brown rods take off steel faster than the white ones? So you use the diamond rods first to create the apex, and followed by the brown and white rods to "clean up" the edge? Also, after watching Sal's Sharpmaker video, I know that he recommends the 40 degree edge for general EDC. So what is the benefit of first using the 30 degree slots, followed by the 40 degree for a micro-bevel? How does this differ from the video instructions?
Thanks again for your help.

[twinboysdad]

If you can sharpen VG10 using 20 strokes per side for each of the stone positions, that sounds pretty good to me. That means you can sharpen a knife in somewhere between 5-10 minutes. I can set aside time to do that regularly.

But some people on this board are saying they don't know how long it takes to sharpen a harder steel like ZDP-189 - you just have to keep sharpening it until it "feels" right. And you have to have patience. So now we have gone from something that was relatively fun and easy - sharpening a knife in 5-10 minutes - to knives that might require - who knows? - an hour to sharpen? Two hours? In fact, to even ask the question shows that you are not really a serious knife person - you are a dilletante. So what if you work 8-9 hours a day to support your family, and don't have 2 more hours to spend after the kids are in bed to retire to the garage to sharpen your latest high grade steel knife.

I've seen this in countless hobbies - people come to the hobby to have fun, but not to give their lives over to it. But there are always the high priests of the hobby who will tell you that if you're not dedicating 16 hours per week to it, you're just not really dedicated to the hobby the way they -the pros - are.

I agree many hobbies are that way, for me working out and the gun world can take that tone, but I don't see where anyone here was being dickish? They politely were saying there is no set strokes, and although I don't own any ZDP I agree. My Pingo is harder to sharpen than my Caly3.5, and sometime I am more skillful than others. Many don't grasp the SM out of the gate, so saying "yes, 40 strokes" is being untruthful. How dull is it? How good are you on the SM? What model are we discussing? This board rarely gets snobbish like the "if you aren't sleeping 8 solid hours, you just aren't prioritizing Crossfit, stop wasting our time" guys

Actually, I was the only one who was being dickish. Just frustrated by my inability to sharpen ADP-189. I should stick to VG-10.

I have never owned ZDP because I am frankly intimidated by sharpening it

[Evil D]

I have never owned ZDP because I am frankly intimidated by sharpening it

That's exactly why you need to own it. You have far more to gain than lose. ZDP was my second steel from Spyderco, I jumped from VG10 to ZDP and it taught me so much.

[Surfingringo]

Surfgringo,

Thanks for your extremely clear instructions - (more than my churlish post deserves). I don't have the diamond rods - just the brown and white ones the Sharpmaker came with. I should probably invest in the diamond rods. Just to make sure I understand this, do the diamond rods take off steel faster than the brown rods, and the brown rods take off steel faster than the white ones? So you use the diamond rods first to create the apex, and followed by the brown and white rods to "clean up" the edge? Also, after watching Sal's Sharpmaker video, I know that he recommends the 40 degree edge for general EDC. So what is the benefit of first using the 30 degree slots, followed by the 40 degree for a micro-bevel? How does this differ from the video instructions?
Thanks again for your help.

Yes, that is exactly right. Regarding the sharpening angle, what I'm suggesting isn't really any different than what Sal suggests in the video. Most of Spyderco's knives come from the factory at around a 30 degree edge bevel. That's why they are so easy to sharpen on the 40 degree slot when they are new. You are putting a 40 degree microbevel on the more acute factory edge. The stones are only touching the edge at the very apex so very little steel has to be removed to make the knife sharp again. Over time and multiple sharpenings though, that 40 degree microbevel will start to take over the 30 degree edge bevel and you will notice that it is taking more and more time to sharpen and it is harder to get the knife as sharp. That's when it's time to break out the diamond rods and reset your bevel to 30 degrees. It's as if you are restoring the factory edge bevel, and it once again becomes very quick and easy to do light touchups and keep your knife sharp. I will usually sharpen 15-20 times between reprofiles. Of course, the more often you reprofile, the less time it takes. The goal of all this is to keep your knife screaming sharp with as little overall work as possible. Over time you will find what works for you but it helps to get an understanding of what you are trying to accomplish...which you now have. Now it just takes a bit more practice.

[Will Rogers]

You know, I think Sal even said something like that in the video, but I never understood what he meant until now. Your explanation is much clearer than the video. Frankly, Spyderco would have done better to hire someone like you to write a user's manual for the Sharpmaker.

[BostonTom]

Thanks. I got a lot of info from this thread too.
Surfgringo, Evil D, JD etc are all full of knife knowledge and true Gentlemen..
Tom