Massdrop appears to be conforming to MAP

[Evil D]

So, I'm probably going to ruffle some feathers with this post, but it's something to think about.

All of you who seem upset about this price deal, you are why companies have to ship their business to China to survive. MAP pricing is just one slice of a much larger pie. This country is absolutely plagued with this mentality that everything has to be as cheap as possible, which is why companies like Walmart are thriving, and why small businesses like Spyderco are getting killed off by companies like Walmart who import everything they sell from China. Then I see some of those same people complain about the quality of the value knives from China, and I just shake my head because those people just can't seem to understand that they're perpetuating the things that they don't like.

If you want quality American made products, you're going to have to support the American companies who make them, otherwise those companies are going to ship their business overseas to survive, and then they have to deal with the backlash from their buyers who complain about everything being made in China now (Kershaw anyone?).

To put it bluntly, you guys are spoiled. Online prices are lower from some dealers because they don't have a storefront to pay for, so they lack most of the retail expenses that brick and mortar stores have to pay for. We have all gotten spoiled by this, and it's absolutely killing business in this country. Companies like Amazon are putting everyone out of business by shipping all their inexpensive cheap crap from China, while the American made small businesses are going out of business. The bottom line is, your money is being spent to fund China and the companies who buy everything from China. Your dollars are leaving our shores and/or going into the pockets of companies like Amazon and Walmart who don't give a **** about small businesses like Spyderco.

Now, don't get me wrong, I'm not some buy American idiot who goes around striving to buy every single item I own only if it's made in America, and I'm also not naive enough to believe that everything that comes out of those countries is poor quality. I'll be the first person to sing the praises of a Tenacious. But, we're also dealing with a product being sold by a company who can still manage to make at least some of their product in America, and if people don't open up their wallets to support these companies, they won't be here in 10 years. If you don't feel that these knives are worth the MAP pricing or even MSRP, you're entitled to your opinion, but I PROMISE YOU that in the end your choice to stop buying because of a little price hike is going to leave YOU empty handed because the products you know and love will either be shipped off to China for manufacture or won't be sold at all. How many knife companies started out here in America who used to make amazing knives but are now either gone or sell a bunch of cheap garbage? I don't think I have to list names...

I know many of you are at your keyboard about to throw down a huge rant about how you earn your money the hard way and you can't afford it. Well, you're preaching to the quire. I buy nearly every knife I own from a local knife shop because I believe in supporting small businesses. Because I want the opportunity to handle a knife before I buy it. Because I don't want to end up buying nothing but Chinese made Spydercos from Walmart. Because of this, I have already been paying more than most of you for my knives. Because I understand that this extra $20 or so per knife is going right back into my local community instead of overseas. In the end, I may be forced to buy fewer knives simply because I can't afford it. That's something that'll be out of all of our hands and I believe it's a backlash that was bound to happen at some point and I believe this backlash is only going to get worse as internet sales increase and local businesses continue to die. It's even hurting the big box stores because they can't compete. Even my local knife shop runs an online store now to try to reel in some of the online sales, but he loses money on everything he sells online if he sells it any less than he does in his store.

Anyway, that's my opinion. Flame me if you must, but the bottom line is this country has lost touch with the value of the goods they consume. We've lost the value in paying good money for a good product. We've become a throw away society, and if we don't change the way we spend our money we're going to lose the opportunity to buy the things we've come to love. So you have to spend more for your Spydercos now, maybe spend less on your Starbucks and your McDonalds and cook your food yourself instead of eating out. Trust me, there are ways to prioritize your money, there are ways that we all waste money on things we don't need that have so much less value to us than a good quality knife.

Also don't forget, that as these small businesses die off, so do all the jobs. Then you're stuck working for companies like Walmart, and let me tell you...I've spent 20 years of my life in retail ranging from every job from bag boy to management, and I can tell you that these companies are absolutely poisoning this country and raping it of everything it's worth. But, that's a whole other can of worms.

[El Gato]

+1 here.
E.D. I couldn't have said it better, and I couldn't agree more! I exist on a very modest disability pension, but I can always find a way to squeeze in just one more of the Titanium Chaparrals that I use and treasure, or one more Mule to try by cutting out something somewhere.
It's a matter of simple economics. You cannot expect a quality product at a bargain price. Not for long.

This has needed to be said for a long time and I am glad E.D. put it into words. Well done David!

[Surfingringo]

I agree with most of what you said David, but this is about the retail market, how it operates and what Spyderco's role in that is. Its not so much about what Spyderco charges for the products they make. I agree with your points about large retailers like Wal Mart and Amazon and the effect they are having on small businesses. I also recognize that a capitalistic economy is based on competition. MAP pricing is an attempt to exert some control over those competitive forces to help level the playing field. An interesting experiment to deal with a very complex issue. We shall see how it turns out.

For the record, I have ZERO issue paying an extra 5 or 10 percent for my pocket knives if it helps Spyderco continue to bring me new quality products for years to come. Is MAP pricing going to be an effective tool to that end? I don't know. Again, we shall see how it turns out.

[Evil D]

I agree with most of what you said David, but this is about the retail market, how it operates and what Spyderco's role in that is. Its not so much about what Spyderco charges for the products they make. I agree with your points about large retailers like Wal Mart and Amazon and the effect they are having on small businesses. I also recognize that a capitalistic economy is based on competition. MAP pricing is an attempt to exert some control over those competitive forces to help level the playing field. An interesting experiment to deal with a very complex issue. We shall see how it turns out.

For the record, I have ZERO issue paying an extra 5 or 10 percent for my pocket knives if it helps Spyderco continue to bring me new quality products for years to come. Is MAP pricing going to be an effective tool to that end? I don't know. Again, we shall see how it turns out.

Yes, the competition/MAP thing is one side of the story, but the vibe I'm getting from this thread is more about how people are upset that they'll have to pay more, and not so much about how they care about capitalism and competition.

But, it still goes back to the root problem. I can't see how Amazon makes any profit off some of the things they sell, and even if they do make some kind of profit, a small business couldn't survive on that amount of profit. In the end Amazon wins and the brick and mortar loses.

This is all without the other giant issue which is counterfeits. Maybe if Amazon is forced to sell at the same price as the other knife dealers, then people will start buying from a reputable dealer and stop getting screwed by fakes.

[bearfacedkiller]

If the whole point of MAP is to level the playing field then why is Amazon not following it. I keep hearing that they are the reason it is being implemented. All the respected dealers seem to be following MAP.

This is currently 47% off.

http://www.amazon.com/Spyderco-Temperen ... B0025YCYK8

[Evil D]

If the whole point of MAP is to level the playing field then why is Amazon not following it. I keep hearing that they are the reason it is being implemented. All the respected dealers seem to be following MAP.

This is currently 47% off.

http://www.amazon.com/Spyderco-Temperen ... B0025YCYK8

That's a very good question to ask. Are they above the law or just don't care? Will they stop carrying Spyderco, and are just selling off old stock however they choose?

[El Gato]

If the whole point of MAP is to level the playing field then why is Amazon not following it. I keep hearing that they are the reason it is being implemented. All the respected dealers seem to be following MAP.

This is currently 47% off.

http://www.amazon.com/Spyderco-Temperen ... B0025YCYK8

That's a very good question to ask. Are they above the law or just don't care? Will they stop carrying Spyderco, and are just selling off old stock however they choose?

Just another of the many reasons outfits like this do not get my business nor my money. I like a "deal" just as much as the next guy, but I will continue to get my good deals from my local B&M knife shop. I get to examine the merchandise, order anything I want that's not immediately in stock, trade for knives I'd like but can't afford, sell knives I no longer want when I need some cash, and never EVER be concerned about any kind of a "fake". Besides all these local benefits my B&M dealer's prices are always negotiable and he gives good deals. To me, that's worth a buck or two extra and I feel I still get a good deal out of it. I would really dislike losing this local knife oasis just to save a few dollars by throwing my money to some mega place that really couldn't care less about my business.
That's just the view from my side of the fence.

[SG89]

If the whole point of MAP is to level the playing field then why is Amazon not following it. I keep hearing that they are the reason it is being implemented. All the respected dealers seem to be following MAP.

This is currently 47% off.

http://www.amazon.com/Spyderco-Temperen ... B0025YCYK8

That's a very good question to ask. Are they above the law or just don't care? Will they stop carrying Spyderco, and are just selling off old stock however they choose?

I too would like to know the answer to this.

[palonej]

What I really love is when some genius comes here, or to another forum, bragging how they went into a B&M for 2 hours, handles 20 knives to see what he likes then goes on line to buy the knife to save $7.
Ugh
Joe

[jabba359]

The biggest problem is that most B&M stores I've visited sell at MSRP, so buying online can easily save $40-80 on a knife. I don't mind paying extra at a B&M, but they need to at least be within a reasonable price of what I can buy for online.

[Liquid Cobra]

I'm curious how some b+m stores have pricing in store and online that is comparable with some online only stores. Warriors and wonders for example is consistently priced (after exchange rate) with most online retailers give or take 5-10 bucks. They are located in a mall, close to downtown in one of the most expensive cities in the world. So why then, do some b+m stores need to sell near MSRP?

[StuntZombie]

I'm curious how some b+m stores have pricing in store and online that is comparable with some online only stores. Warriors and wonders for example is consistently priced (after exchange rate) with most online retailers give or take 5-10 bucks. They are located in a mall, close to downtown in one of the most expensive cities in the world. So why then, do some b+m stores need to sell near MSRP?

I think it's that online component that allows them to sell at lower prices. They likely do a high volume of business online, so they aren't depending on walk-in customers for business. New Graham is the same way. Those stores that only have a B&M location likely have a lower volume of sales comparatively, so they need to make more per knife to make up the difference.

[bearfacedkiller]

If the whole point of MAP is to level the playing field then why is Amazon not following it. I keep hearing that they are the reason it is being implemented. All the respected dealers seem to be following MAP.

This is currently 47% off.

http://www.amazon.com/Spyderco-Temperen ... B0025YCYK8

That's a very good question to ask. Are they above the law or just don't care? Will they stop carrying Spyderco, and are just selling off old stock however they choose?

What really frosts my balls is that I have been loyally supporting a few online dealers for a long time now. Now I have to watch these companies who do youtube reviews and who commission dealer exclusives and who supports the industry follow MAP while Amazon just does whatever they want. I do not know for sure but my guess is that Amazon just has the leverage to get away with it. I am sure they move a ton of product for Spyderco so it is very possible that they figure they have the leverage and can do whatever they want. They do not seem to be very responsive to the counterfeit problem either. If this was supposed to level the playing field I would say it is failing miserably. If anything it appears as though it has tipped the scales in Amazon's favor. If NGK, KW and CS are all following it and Amazon is not then Amazon is gonna kill them. I have given Roger at Knife Works a bunch of my money and I will continue to do so but many others will be going to Amazon if things stay this way.

[Surfingringo]

If this was supposed to level the playing field I would say it is failing miserably. If anything it appears as though it has tipped the scales in Amazon's favor. If NGK, KW and CS are all following it and Amazon is not then Amazon is gonna kill them.

I'm doing my best to stay out of this debate but this was kind of my reaction. After your post I went to Amazon and looked up a bunch of different Spydercos. The majority of them are listed at well below "MAP" pricing.

[dplafoll]

Just a quick correction:
MAP is for ADVERTISED price. They can sell at literally whatever price they want, as long as it's not advertised below MAP. This is very common for online retailers dealing with MAP.
Also RE: Amazon, Spyderco may not be enforcing MAP for knives purchased from them by Amazon/Amazon dealers before Jan 1 and it just hasn't caught up. And/or, Spyderco may be working with Amazon to implement this more gradually for them, since they're probably the largest dealer by volume.

Also, I agree with the above about supporting certain companies. That's one reason I buy Spyderco; I want them to stick around. That's another reason I buy from either BHQ or my local store.

[abbazaba]

I wish I had a local store I could give money to. The closest store that carries Spyderco is Cabelas over an hour away and their selection is terrible. I was excited to stop by a dealer listed on the website on my way back from a camping trip, but when we got there it was all vapes and porn... no knives at all :\

New Graham and National Knives are my B&M stores.

[SG89]

I wish I had a local store I could give money to. The closest store that carries Spyderco is Cabelas over an hour away and their selection is terrible. I was excited to stop by a dealer listed on the website on my way back from a camping trip, but when we got there it was all vapes and porn... no knives at all :\

New Graham and National Knives are my B&M stores.

I'm sorry but the vapes and porn comment made me lol!

[Evil D]

I wish I had a local store I could give money to. The closest store that carries Spyderco is Cabelas over an hour away and their selection is terrible. I was excited to stop by a dealer listed on the website on my way back from a camping trip, but when we got there it was all vapes and porn... no knives at all :\

New Graham and National Knives are my B&M stores.

What really sucks is how many places are listed as Spyderco dealers near me that only carry a Delica and a Tenacious, and they want MSRP for them.

[shimage]

I kind of understand where the justification for MAP is coming from, and I don't have a problem with it. However, I just want to point out how it plays out for me (I realize I am not a representative sample). Now, I only have something like 20 spydies, which I understand is not very many as far as forumites go. I don't have a relationship with any dealers, online or otherwise, because I only buy a few knives in any given year. None of them are going to do me any favors. That's fine, and I don't expect it. That being said, if everyone sells at MAP (including Amazon), then I'm buying from Amazon. Why? 1) I'm already paying for 2-day shipping from them, and 2) their return policy is unbeatable. Also, they are as much an American company as any other one I might choose to shop at.

I realize that Amazon isn't following MAP at the moment, and that they were brought up for that specific reason. I'm just saying that, even if they did follow MAP (which they do for Benchmades), I would still choose them over other vendors. I don't think Spyderco's MAP is going to help B&Ms that much, nor small online retailers. It's set too low for B&Ms to compete with it (I am not going to pay a 66% premium just to support local businesses, sorry), and economies of scale make it hard for smaller outfits to compete with bigger ones on perks like shipping/returns (nevermind 5% cash back on all purchases). Before Spyderco instituted MAP, I mostly bought from knife-specific retailers because they could compete on price, but with MAP there isn't really an incentive anymore. That said, last two spydies were from bladehq, though I'm not sure whether they count as "small"...

[Leadsled]

Wow, Evil D! Your rant was so scattered and haphazard I struggled to find a point in it. The generalizations were so broad as to be embarrassing.

It's obvious no one read the link I posted about MAP.

Inside my desk drawer I am looking at the following

1. Opinel
2. Wenger
3. Mora
4. Byrd
5. US made Kershaw
6. Japanese made Spyderco
7. US made Spyderco

I listed these priced low to high for what I paid.

Only one was made in China.

I guess someone could list these based on per capita income, standard of living, freedom, etc.

The location of the manufacturing of these knives has nothing to do with the vendor, location of the vendor, whether or not the vendor has a b&m storefront.

The decision to buy was based on brand, quality, coolness, and of course price.

I also purchase based on whether something is Made in USA or another country not named China.

That being said, I am waiting for my Byrd Raven 2. Should be here Thursday.

The quality of the Byrd knives rivals that of Spyderco knives they are based on and I think the ergos are superior. I prefer finger choils. Interesting dilemma. US made steel, assembled in China by a US owned company.

I know nothing about the ins and outs of manufacturing, but I'm willing to bet a Byrd could be made in Mora or Solingen at a competitive price.

When shopping in any store, please spend an extra few seconds looking at the labels. Contrary to some preaching, not everything is Made in China.

You may be pleasantly surprised at how much more is being made in the USA and at a competitive price.