Clip, tip-up vs. tip-down

[archangel]

Looking at the 2016 catalogue models, it seems like nine out of ten knives carry their clip by default tip-up. Is there any official information why the number of tip-down clip knives is so much lower? In particular, why do both milli models have their clip tip-down, while almost all other volume models have them tip-up? What is the criteria that decides where spyderco positions the clip when they design a new knife? Officials feedback welcome!

[hoimin]

From the January Spyder-Byte

A Deeper Look at Pocket Clips

Since Spyderco pioneered the concept of mounting a pocket clip on a folding knife 35 years ago, clips have come a long way. We have also learned a lot about how to make clips work best on knives of various styles, sizes, and handle materials to offer maximum versatility, convenience, and durability. Although their function is deceptively simple, there are many details to consider when choosing a clip—both during the design process and as a consumer.

One of the most basic clip decisions is whether it should be tip-up or tip-down. While some consider this purely a matter of personal preference, actually, the knife’s design, its size, and its relationship to your hand size all have a lot to do with which approach works best. Fans of tip-up carry generally prefer it because it allows you to grip the knife, draw it, and open it one handed without having to adjust your grip. When the knife is carried all the way to the back of the pocket, tip-up carry also helps keep the blade safely closed by placing its spine against the back of the pocket. This is less important with knives that have strong self-close mechanisms, like those with back locks.

Tip-down carry works best for large folders like the Military™ Model. If large, long-handled knives are carried tip-up, when drawn your hand grips the handle close to the butt end—too far from the blade hole, flipper tab, or thumb stud for an immediate one-handed opening. With tip-down carry, you grip the pivot-pin end of the knife and ultimately end up in a better position to open the blade, but only after adjusting your grip after the draw. Tip-down carry also works well with some specialized one-hand opening methods that initially grip the blade instead of the handle.

One often overlooked aspect of pocket clips is their attachment point on the handle and its effect on the height of the knife’s “ride” in the pocket. Some users have a strong preference for “deep-pocket” carry that conceals the knife as much as possible. Typically this is achieved by attaching the clip as close to the end of the handle as possible and works even better with “foldover” style clips like those found on the Dragonfly™ 2 and the popular Sage™ series. For smaller knives, this style of carry still allows a full grip on the knife prior to the draw and leaves the hand naturally positioned for a one-handed opening. However, when longer knives are carried deep in the pocket, it’s difficult for an average-sized hand to grip deeply enough to allow a fluid draw and opening without having to adjust your grip midstream. To some users that may not matter, but it still helps to understand that knife size, clip mounting position, carry height, and individual hand size all have an effect on carry convenience and accessibility.

Some Spyderco knives feature reversible clips or even four-position clips that allow the clip mounting location to be easily changed to support different carry preferences. Popular models like the Delica™, Endura™, and Para Military™2 have four-position clips that allow tip-up or tip-down carry on either the left or right side. While this allows you to experiment with different carry styles to find the method that works best for you, please remember to add a drop of Loc-Tite™ or similar thread-locking compound to each clip screw to make sure they stay in place.

Spyderco is extremely proud to have pioneered the use of pocket clips on folding knives. But like everything else we do, being revolutionary isn’t good enough. As we continue to make our clips, our knives, and everything else we do even better, it’s the evolution of revolution that counts.

[archangel]

Thanks, this does answer some questions, especially about the millies. But then again, the Szabo folder is even longer, and still carries the clip tip-up by default. So the reasoning in this article seems not to be the universal truth...

[hoimin]

Thanks, this does answer some questions, especially about the millies. But then again, the Szabo folder is even longer, and still carries the clip tip-up by default. So the reasoning in this article seems not to be the universal truth...

The Szabo has 4-position carry available. There's probably another consideration for why it is tip-up by default (minimizing the hotspots during MBC?).

[Evil D]

The usual opinion is that larger knives like the Military would put the pivot too far from your thumb when you draw them from the knife, requiring you to shimmy your hand up the handle to reach the pivot. When carried tip down, you draw the knife from the pivot end of the handle, putting your thumb closer to the pivot hole.

I prefer tip down on anything that doesn't put me in this situation, but on larger knives like the Military I do prefer tip down. It just makes sense. I've carried my Ulize tip up just to see how I like it and even with huge hands it's more work to get to the pivot than carrying tip down. Plus, if you get used to doing the Spydie-drop, then tip down actually becomes a very fast way to carry and draw your knife.

[swigert]

Tip up for me.

[bdblue]

You can start a war talking about clip position.

Back in the early days it seems that knives came tip down if possible. I say "if possible" because molded clips on FRN knives like the Delica are difficult or impossible to manufacture tip down so they come tip up. G10 knives seemed more likely to come tip down. In current times it seems a lot of knives come tip up, maybe even most of them. I have my preferences but I buy knives that come both ways because I like the styles. Some knives can have their clips set either way, but even among those I find it interesting that the PM2 comes tip down while the GB comes tip up.

People carry knives different ways and some carry methods work best one way or the other. Plus people have their own preferences for different reasons. It seems that tip up righthand front pocket can be safest because you can position the spine of the blade against the edge of the pocket where the blade won't open accidentally. Also if you have a knife with a wave feature it only works tip up. And if you like a lanyard it works best tip up.

For me righthand front pocket carry works best tip down for larger knives, for smaller knives it doesn't matter. I like the Manix 2 (comes tip up only) but when I pull it out I have to do a little juggling act to get my hand positioned to open it. I don't have to do this with a PM2.

[Waco]

I keep switching my Enduras back and forth. The knife seems to slide in and out of my pocket easier tip-down. But if I need the Fisher Bullet Pen from the bottom of the same pocket, tip-up is more comfortable as I reach in past the knife (no jimping).

[Spydergimbo]

To me how well the knife draws from the pocket is much less important than how the clip get's into the way when actually holding and using the knife. For example I changed to tip down on the GB, because this way I hardly notice the clip when holding the knife and get a much better grip than with the clip tip up.

[Michael Janich]

Thanks, this does answer some questions, especially about the millies. But then again, the Szabo folder is even longer, and still carries the clip tip-up by default. So the reasoning in this article seems not to be the universal truth...

"Universal truth" is hard to come by, so please don't read too much into things or assume that every decision was made with agonizing forethought. I wrote the article for the byte. so I will gladly "own" the opinions it expresses and stand by them. With regard to the Szabo Folder, although I can't confirm that this is the case, I suspect the story went this way...

The original handmade prototype that Laci Szabo submitted to Spyderco was a flipper. Laci is also a big dude with big hands and designs things to fit his needs. With all that in mind, the original prototype was set up for tip-up carry and a flipper opening. It also had a relatively weak detent for its blade size, so tip-up carry helped keep the blade safely closed in the pocket.

When Spyderco engineered the knife for production, they eliminated the flipper (we had not yet introduced them on any models at that time, so it was an unproven concept as a feature on our knives until the Southard Folder) and incorporated a pretty sophisticated internal "self-close" mechanism to keep the big blade safely closed. That mechanism is completely internal and a very cool engineering feat that is completely overlooked by most owners of the knife. Only after that mechanism was proven was the decision made to offer the knife with a four-way clip. Nevertheless, since the original prototypes were set up for tip-up carry, the knife still comes that way out of the box. When I show it to customers at trade shows, unless they are Laci Szabo sized, I suggest they switch the clip to tip-down carry and use a Military Model to demonstrate why.

Not a "universal truth," but hopefully this helps fill in a few blanks...

Stay safe,

Mike

[MichaelScott]

To me how well the knife draws from the pocket is much less important than how the clip get's into the way when actually holding and using the knife. For example I changed to tip down on the GB, because this way I hardly notice the clip when holding the knife and get a much better grip than with the clip tip up.

I agree. I position the clips so that they are least intrusive and bothersome to my grip when using the knife. I think the Delica and Dragonfly models, for example, are better without them.

[bearfacedkiller]

For years I just preferred familiarity. Since most knives came with clips in the tip down orientation back in the day I just got used to it. When tip up only knives first became widely popular I simply avoided them. There were not that many and it wasn't that hard. Now it seems as though knives mostly either come with four way clips or tip up only. The number of tip down only models is few and far between. Thankfully most of the knives I like are still available with a four way clip but not all so alas I have given in to the current trends and have become more accustomed to tip down knives. I feel old when I think this but I often think to myself, "darn kids and their tip up flippers, ugh...". :D Since I have reluctantly grown to accept them I have found that one consolation prize is that I can carry two knives at the same time with both having their spines against the seam of my pants. This works well since I usually carry two knives and usually one is a larger folder and one is a smaller folder. For example, if I put my Ti Military in my back right pocket and put my Sage2 in my back left pocket I have both knives positioned with the spines against a seam and thus the chance of either opening in my pocket is slim. That is not a major concern of mine but I have had a knife come open in my pocket once and luckily my pants got the worst of it. The fact that the tip up knife in my rear left pocket doesn't draw as naturally for me is kind of a moot point as I have to pass it to my right hand anyway since I am not a lefty.

[bdblue]

I've read a lot of threads on clip position and this one has covered all of the bases. It is easy to see that there are a lot of different factors involved and plenty of reasons for any person to want to carry one way or another.

[skers95]

I usually prefer tip-up but another brand knife I got a few months ago carried much lower tip-down so I switched it. As I've gotten used to it, I've realized that for tip-down, you can pull it out and just let it 'pivot' and let it fall into your palm and be ready to go. Really smooth and easy. I'm about 50/50 on it now.

[archangel]

Thanks, this does answer some questions, especially about the millies. But then again, the Szabo folder is even longer, and still carries the clip tip-up by default. So the reasoning in this article seems not to be the universal truth...

"Universal truth" is hard to come by, so please don't read too much into things or assume that every decision was made with agonizing forethought. I wrote the article for the byte. so I will gladly "own" the opinions it expresses and stand by them. With regard to the Szabo Folder, although I can't confirm that this is the case, I suspect the story went this way...

The original handmade prototype that Laci Szabo submitted to Spyderco was a flipper. Laci is also a big dude with big hands and designs things to fit his needs. With all that in mind, the original prototype was set up for tip-up carry and a flipper opening. It also had a relatively weak detent for its blade size, so tip-up carry helped keep the blade safely closed in the pocket.

When Spyderco engineered the knife for production, they eliminated the flipper (we had not yet introduced them on any models at that time, so it was an unproven concept as a feature on our knives until the Southard Folder) and incorporated a pretty sophisticated internal "self-close" mechanism to keep the big blade safely closed. That mechanism is completely internal and a very cool engineering feat that is completely overlooked by most owners of the knife. Only after that mechanism was proven was the decision made to offer the knife with a four-way clip. Nevertheless, since the original prototypes were set up for tip-up carry, the knife still comes that way out of the box. When I show it to customers at trade shows, unless they are Laci Szabo sized, I suggest they switch the clip to tip-down carry and use a Military Model to demonstrate why.

Not a "universal truth," but hopefully this helps fill in a few blanks...

Stay safe,

Mike

Thanks Mike, I really appreciate your inside information!

I think I'll trial tip-down on the Szabo, to see if it makes a real difference to me. Mostly to see if holding it in my rather small hand will feel better or worse.

[StuntZombie]

Most of my knives carry tip up, but that's mainly because that's the only option they offer, other than right or left. After carrying my Endura tip up for a couple weeks, I decided to switch it to tip down, and see how it worked for me. It feels like a completely different knife now, and in a good way. It's a lot easier for me to open, and it's kind of nice having the option to Spyderdrop it.

I do have a Santa Fe Stoneworks Delica that I have set up for tip down carry, but mainly due to the fact it keeps it lower in the pocket, helping to protect the onlay.