The MAP announcement

[TheRaven]

If MAP pricing is up to 40% off, that's not much different from what we pay now. I buy much of my stuff from KW and will continue to do so.

Now if MAP pricing called for dealers selling products for roughly full MSRP, I'd probably find some "reliable" gray market dealer or buy used.

[Cujobob]

While this move can help established companies, it can hurt start-ups willing to take less profit. Also, if certain states are not business friendly, then business needs to leave those areas until the necessary changes are made to make the policies work for businesses. The same way you wouldn't open up a fancy high end restaurant in an area where people are struggling financially.

I think some of Spydercos offerings provide good value but many do not at the projected newer prices. And while an argument can be made that it's unfair to businesses that take photos or let you fondle the knives first-hand, it is a price driven economy. Heck, the only videos and reviews I care about come from free YouTube videos of people not profiting on the sale.

[El Gato]

A good friend of mine who owns a one man B&M knife shop in my area carries some of the brands that already have MAP in place, so he prices them accordingly. He says many times people will come into the shop looking for certain knives, examine and handle those knives in his shop, and then go home and order off the internet for less. He says he can and would beat most of those internet prices if only these people would ask and show him where they can get the knife for less than his marked price. Sometimes it pays to give a local dealer a chance, and it doesn't hurt to ask.
Just a thought.........

[this_is_nascar]

I expect, like everything else, proof of its success will be in 2016 and beyond in revenue and profit. If people don't like the new policy and would VOTE WITH THEIR WALLETS, then pricing would aways be corrected. Thus holds true with any and every product, whether it's goods or services. People complain about prices at sporting events, but continue to attend. People complain about price increases on non-essential products, but continue to purchase.

I don't expect this to be any different. People won't like it, they'll complain, but will purchase the product anyway. Why would any maker not increase their prices based on these facts and stats? There's no reason or motive to do otherwise.

I'm just happy that, while I have a few Spyderco knives and enjoy them, I'm not addicted.

[Holzfaeller]

The MAP will increase the prices for the knives that I would buy by about $5 to $10. I've been selling knives much more than buying, but this small increase in price won't effect the used market. Unlike when Benchmade started enforcing their MAP and I sold all but one. I had my eye on a couple of Spydercos that I really don't need, but this arbitrary price increase just to manipulate the market reminds me that I have enough knives. I could still be convinced to buy another Spyderco, just not as easily.

[awa54]

While this move can help established companies, it can hurt start-ups willing to take less profit. Also, if certain states are not business friendly, then business needs to leave those areas until the necessary changes are made to make the policies work for businesses. The same way you wouldn't open up a fancy high end restaurant in an area where people are struggling financially.

I think some of Spydercos offerings provide good value but many do not at the projected newer prices. And while an argument can be made that it's unfair to businesses that take photos or let you fondle the knives first-hand, it is a price driven economy. Heck, the only videos and reviews I care about come from free YouTube videos of people not profiting on the sale.

That "free" review on youtube isn't free, but the cost is shifted away from you directly. Someone is paying for it though, so what your local brick & mortar shop used to get paid for (having an expert knife salesman, who could explain to you the benefits of one knife or another), is now spread across the internet, where Joe Knifereviewer gets paid for their youtube hits, instead of the salesman at Joe's Knife Store getting a paycheck for 40 hours a week. That cost shift is part of how Mega E-Knifestore can sell their knives for 60% off MSRP, by resigning from a portion of the overall CS process (that and huge volume buying wholesale discounts).

Another thing to remember about "independent" reviews/blogs is that many are funded by "interested parties"... I seriously doubt that this is the case with Spyderco reviews (for one thing, that sort of manipulation doesn't fit with the way Spyderco does business and also, why pay for good reviews on a product that speaks for its self?), but this is something to keep in mind the next time you read a glowing review from Joe's Knifeblog.net.

This brings me around to an observation about companies that grow past a certain size/market share. In my experience *too much* growth isn't good for the customer (at least not in any way except for getting a low final price). As companies switch from being smaller enthusiast (customer and designer) driven organizations to attempting to capture *huge* market shares, the product suffers as costs are shaved and customer service (both to the end user and the dealers) inevitably falls by the wayside in the process as well, after all doing CS *right* is a significant cost.

I'm confident that in the near term, the vision which brought Spyderco to the position it's in now will continue to guide the company toward not just bigger, but also better things. I just hope that the firewall between Spyderco proper and the Byrd product/market segment stays in place... I don't like the idea of a "Spydercorp International" with a half dozen brands like KAI or Boker have... if Spyderco does wind up doing something like that I would expect that the core of what Spyderco is now would continue on in something very like its current form (great designs, excellent execution, and way above average CS for a big knife Co.), as the premium line in their stable.

By the way, don't think for a minute that I'm against Sal parlaying his hard work, design excellence and business savvy into a well deserved profit, it's just that my selfish knife aficionado side doesn't want to loose a fantastic maker like Spyderco to market forces!

The MAP will increase the prices for the knives that I would buy by about $5 to $10. I've been selling knives much more than buying, but this small increase in price won't effect the used market. Unlike when Benchmade started enforcing their MAP and I sold all but one. I had my eye on a couple of Spydercos that I really don't need, but this arbitrary price increase just to manipulate the market reminds me that I have enough knives. I could still be convinced to buy another Spyderco, just not as easily.

MAP still doesn't raise street price, just *advertised* street price. Your favorite retailer is allowed to sell merchandise for any price they choose (AFAIK alcohol is the only thing legally prohibited from being sold under cost in most states). They just can't post that price in an ad or on the buy page for that product, cheapestknivesintheworld.com can sell PM2s for $99.95, but if they're complying with MAP rules, you'll only see that price in your cart/checkout screen. The B&M retailers can't run an add or put up a sign for Spyderco product at below MAP, it depends on the dealer agreement whether or not they can tag the product at below MAP on the shelves... but there's always the time honored hedge of running an ad that says: "come check out our great selection of XYZ knives, all at prices too low to print!".

[average-Joe]

As a business owner my entire life I dread MAP agreements. But the Internet has forced it. I'll make $10 on a product. The next guy settles for $5 to steal business, the next $1 it's hard to make a living. MAP agreements don't help the problem. If everyone advertises at the same price then the top sellers are still ones that circumvent the agreement.
The best way to sell is to offer services outside just buying. Like offering top quality customer service, better return policies or free sharpening. Spyderco does that but many don't want to wait 4 weeks. If I was a Spyderco dealer I'd offer free sharpening with a 24-48 hr turn around time. Gimmicks like that offer a genuine service that costs little to nothing but keep ones coming back.

[awa54]

As a business owner my entire life I dread MAP agreements. But the Internet has forced it. I'll make $10 on a product. The next guy settles for $5 to steal business, the next $1 it's hard to make a living. MAP agreements don't help the problem. If everyone advertises at the same price then the top sellers are still ones that circumvent the agreement.
The best way to sell is to offer services outside just buying. Like offering top quality customer service, better return policies or free sharpening. Spyderco does that but many don't want to wait 4 weeks. If I was a Spyderco dealer I'd offer free sharpening with a 24-48 hr turn around time. Gimmicks like that offer a genuine service that costs little to nothing but keep ones coming back.

Yeah, MAP is a band aid, a gesture to try to level the playing field, but in my experience it changes nothing, or sometimes disadvantages smaller marginal companies that would willingly try to scrape by on lower profit percentage... But it seems like the elephant in the room is Amazon, who have a business model that can only work for Amazon... http://knifenews.com/why-is-knivesshipf ... -spyderco/

Hard to tell from the outside what Amazon is buying Spyderco product for ($), but they have been selling at under the wholesale price that a smaller retailer pays, if the above article is to be believed. It's impossible to compete with that, MAP or no.

Sadly this whole process is something I lived through in the electronics biz, back in the '80s it was J&R Music world selling Sony for below our cost, then Onkyo (at one time one of the companies with the best dealer support and CS in any industry!) allowing mailorder and online sales, then B&W deciding to delete all of their small dealers, and always Sharp JVC and Toshiba video product selling through the online and big-box stores for at or below our cost. Not surprisingly I don't work in that trade anymore and there are almost no independent audio/video shops in small-town America these days.

[average-Joe]

Agree I was in the electronics business myself and I hear you. Very familiar with companies like J&R. I wasn't so much myself in consumer electronics however I know what you mean. The last big company that wanted to force me into MAP ended up themselves going out of business not at their will. It was a shock to most in the electronics community. MAP simply doesnt work. Even honest retailers would start calling items "open box" just to get around it.
Service not sales is the key these days to battle against large companies like Amazon. There are still people who value small business and service that goes above and beyond. As a business man I was always made fun of for not getting bigger and expanding. But I carried low overhead, great customer service, unique product services exclusive to me, and a fair price. It worked. But businesses that think drop shipping a knife on eBay and making $2 per order is worth it I say forget it. Sure there's always going to be people that buy only because of a low price. MAP doesn't help that. But the bigger fish are lasting relationships that go beyond low price by offering unique services.

[El Gato]

Speaking only for myself, I prefer to develop a repeat customer relationship with a reputable dealer who treats me right. I have several favorites that I order from, but knowing I will get an authentic product, as advertised, and know I can exchange or return it without hassle, is more important to me than price alone. There are lots of Spyderco dealers out there to choose from but Customer Service is the key to get my business.

I don't buy from places like Amazon or Ebay, perhaps because I am a bit intimidated by them, but I have no issues with those who do. I just prefer to support the independent dealers out there who treat me as I would like to be treated. I think life in general is kind of like that...... :D

[awa54]

Agree I was in the electronics business myself and I hear you. Very familiar with companies like J&R. I wasn't so much myself in consumer electronics however I know what you mean. The last big company that wanted to force me into MAP ended up themselves going out of business not at their will. It was a shock to most in the electronics community. MAP simply doesn't work. Even honest retailers would start calling items "open box" just to get around it.
Service not sales is the key these days to battle against large companies like Amazon. There are still people who value small business and service that goes above and beyond. As a business man I was always made fun of for not getting bigger and expanding. But I carried low overhead, great customer service, unique product services exclusive to me, and a fair price. It worked. But businesses that think drop shipping a knife on eBay and making $2 per order is worth it I say forget it. Sure there's always going to be people that buy only because of a low price. MAP doesn't help that. But the bigger fish are lasting relationships that go beyond low price by offering unique services.

I wish there was still a *prevailing* attitude in the retail community like the one you espouse and that used to be common among good retailers and suppliers.

[thombrogan]

First the Tuff was redesigned with an integral liner lock before finally making it into production and now this. I hope someone's happy with this pattern of turning my must-haves into couldn't-wants.

[Archimedes]

Lowball sellers will get around it. Manufacturers think they can control the price but they can't. Like others said, add to cart to get price, email for best price, 40 dollars off any order over $100, and so on and so on. It is a fair idea by Spyderco and I get it, but Spyderco makes there money once they sell the knife to the dealer. Once the Dealer has to sell it and stay in business it really is survival of the fittest and it is up to them to eek out a profit. This is where a good dealer survives on excellent customer service, fast shipping and reputation. Sometimes that is not even enough. Say what you will about Amazon, but you can return anything. So take a chance on the cheapest knife and if it sucks return it. Not much to loose there. Amazon is a serious powerful retail model. Amazon is not going anywhere. They are the giant corporate monster. If I were Spyderco I would work a contract to sell my knives through them, solely, and sadly eliminate the other online dealers on Amazon. Only Spyderco sells Spyderco. Build a giant shipping center. No middle men. That's just me I am a ruthless capitalist. I do not know enough about Spydercos business model to know if this would even work but...???


I can't imagine the how dealers even make money. The margins must be ridiculously small based on internet sales prices. Controlling the market from the top is a pipe dream. Sorry just the ramblings of an old jaded capitalist... :rolleyes:

[average-Joe]

^^^ a lot of valid points for sure

[this_is_nascar]

.... not only that. I can order a product from Amazon in the morning and in many cases have it delivered same day for $9.98.

[average-Joe]

I tell you what if Amazon started accepting PayPal I'd leave eBay. Prime imho is well worth the $. They ship crazy fast.

[ASmitty]

Are you saying the new MAP will cause prices for Spyderco knives to go up, when it comes to we consumers?

Because from what I read, the MAP change will not actually prohibit a retailer from selling a Spyderco for a minimum price, it will just ask them to not advertise that lower price, correct?

Example: If "Joe Knife Shop" has an Endura and wants to sell it for 60 dollars, vs 70 that others sell it for, he can still do that, but if he is a Spyderco dealer, he won't be able to advertise the 60 on his website. Is that how this works?

If Spyderco polices their MAP policy in the same way that Benchmade and ZT have, then dealers won't be able to sell for less than the MAP price. The term MAP is misleading if this will be the case.

[TheRaven]

do we know for a fact that MAP pricing will be 40% ?

I believe Chris Teeve knives has MAP pricing at full MSRP ?

[GoldenSpydie]

do we know for a fact that MAP pricing will be 40% ?

I believe Chris Teeve knives has MAP pricing at full MSRP ?

Yes, we do. It says it in the first post of the announcement thread.