Dan Fisher,
Do you remember how Tandy invented the 'window' style interface; Apple popularized it; Microsoft went on to build several commercially successful operating systems based on it; and then Apple accused Microsoft of copying them? Yep, copying them in copying Tandy. In this case, REKAT, Benchmade, Spyderco, Cold Steel, Schrade, SOG, CRKT, and a few others are all copying Blackie Collins'lock. When you look at how even that lock prevents a knife from closing, it's a ripoff of a lockback which is a ripoff of a friction folder which is a ripoff of a knapped piece of flint.
Now aside from that, you can also notice that the Ball-Bearing Lock uses a single, coiled spring against a plunger that then pushes against a sphere (or Ball-Bearing as the kids call it these days) to keep the knife either locked open or lightly restrained in the closed position. The Axis Lock uses two omega springs (as they look like the omega symbol) that push directly against a cylinder to keep the blade locked open or lightly restrained in the closed position.
Also of note, and this may be implied within the description, the Axis Lock has less publicly reported failures than the Ball-Bearing Lock (the adverb may or may not be key). The Axis Lock is often initially easier to use than the Ball-Bearing Lock (and perpetually easier to use if you open your knife by pulling back on the lock and flicking the knife open. In fact, Benchmade's online support person, BMSTII, recommends that Axis Locked Benchmades be flicked open. Adherents to this policy often write on Benchmade's forum and Bladeforums to ask why their Benchmades rattle when closed, but are silent when opened. It's the extra metal tube around the stop pin that's been loosened due to several thousand impacts from flicking. Performance isn't affected). No one has reported that the Ball-Bearing lock protudes too far out on both sides of the scales, though that is a complaint of a minute percentage of Axis Lock owners.
Okay, so we have two superficially similar locks. Were you to imply that Spyderco just threw in the differences to sneak around the patent, that'd still be saying much more in their favor. Of all of the infinite shapes available in the universe open to Benchmade's lawful use, it speaks volumes about their current character that they still chose round.
Also, just because Benchmade hasn't been legally punished doesn't mean they didn't break the law. Magnavox eventually had to shell out big bucks for ripping off Pac-Man with KC Munchin, but they weren't stopped from initially making and distributing the derivative game. The Skirmish, while well designed and likely an incredible knife, is Benchmade's KC Munchin.
Benchmade vs. Spyderco
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mystillwater
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thom,
thank you for your reply. my question is...when does an innovation become the new standard? spyderco started making knives with lockbacks. that was not their invention. what's the difference between them using that and benchmade using a hole? almost every knife maker from tom mayo to gerber are using it. i can't think of a single production knife company who doesn't use it. if there is an existing patent on the idea, sal could have a peice of almost every knife sale in the world. if not, then we should just put it to rest. sal is an innovator in the truest sense and has the upmost respect from his peers and the viscous support of his customers. spyderco is one of the best selling production knives (outside of walmart). if you look around you'll see that everyone is using sal's ideas. if you look at spydero you can see how sal used and improved upon lots of ideas that came before him. that's the name of the game.
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thank you for your reply. my question is...when does an innovation become the new standard? spyderco started making knives with lockbacks. that was not their invention. what's the difference between them using that and benchmade using a hole? almost every knife maker from tom mayo to gerber are using it. i can't think of a single production knife company who doesn't use it. if there is an existing patent on the idea, sal could have a peice of almost every knife sale in the world. if not, then we should just put it to rest. sal is an innovator in the truest sense and has the upmost respect from his peers and the viscous support of his customers. spyderco is one of the best selling production knives (outside of walmart). if you look around you'll see that everyone is using sal's ideas. if you look at spydero you can see how sal used and improved upon lots of ideas that came before him. that's the name of the game.
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<I>>what's the difference between them using that and benchmade using a hole?</I>
The hole is <B>trademarked</B>. (not patented anymore, that has expired). Companies register trademarks to distinquish themselves from others. It's a symbol of Spyderco. Like 3M trademarked the color pink for their insulation material, and McDonalds (probably) trademarked their M letter and Microsoft trademarked the line 'Where do you want to go today'. Or Howard Viele with it's three very small holes.
Taking Microsoft for example, you're fine to use that line in a book you're writing. But Netscape can't use it as a punch line when they advertise their software.
Same with 3M and their trademarked 'pink' insulation material. You can paint your house pink, but you can't market pink insulation material.
When I see a big yellow rounded M, I think it's McDonalds. If I see that typical Coca Cola rounded bottle filled with brown liquied, I think it's Coca Cola. If I see a knife with a big hole, I think it's a Spyderco (collaboration)...and that's where I think it goes wrong with the Skirmish...
Ted
Edited for spelling and clarification.
Edited by - Ted on 4/21/2004 8:33:45 AM
The hole is <B>trademarked</B>. (not patented anymore, that has expired). Companies register trademarks to distinquish themselves from others. It's a symbol of Spyderco. Like 3M trademarked the color pink for their insulation material, and McDonalds (probably) trademarked their M letter and Microsoft trademarked the line 'Where do you want to go today'. Or Howard Viele with it's three very small holes.
Taking Microsoft for example, you're fine to use that line in a book you're writing. But Netscape can't use it as a punch line when they advertise their software.
Same with 3M and their trademarked 'pink' insulation material. You can paint your house pink, but you can't market pink insulation material.
When I see a big yellow rounded M, I think it's McDonalds. If I see that typical Coca Cola rounded bottle filled with brown liquied, I think it's Coca Cola. If I see a knife with a big hole, I think it's a Spyderco (collaboration)...and that's where I think it goes wrong with the Skirmish...
Ted
Edited for spelling and clarification.
Edited by - Ted on 4/21/2004 8:33:45 AM
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mystillwater
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then benchmade isn't really guilty of anything are they?
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mystillwater
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not if the trade mark is one hole. addidas trademark is 3 stripes. kswiss is 5 i think. there are no message boards with tennis players yelling at kobe bryant because of trademark infringement. now the old model AFCK....that's a different story.
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4 s ter
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The Spyderco trademark is the "round opening hole" You can surround it with as many additional decorative holes as you want - using a round opening hole is an infringment of trademark.
Ken Onion uses three rounds holes of decreasing size as a trademark of his knives (just like the prototype of the Benchmade 630 Skirmish but Ken did it first). However none of the holes Ken Onion puts in his knives are round "opening" holes.
The original AFCK is a different story - Benchmade used the round opening hole in it under license from Spyderco.
David
"Not all who wander are lost"
Ken Onion uses three rounds holes of decreasing size as a trademark of his knives (just like the prototype of the Benchmade 630 Skirmish but Ken did it first). However none of the holes Ken Onion puts in his knives are round "opening" holes.
The original AFCK is a different story - Benchmade used the round opening hole in it under license from Spyderco.
David
"Not all who wander are lost"
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thombrogan
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Dan Fisher,
The problem is that the round opening hole is trademarked and Benchmade is using the round opening hole without permission. As soon as the opening hole, and only the opening hole, is no longer round, the issue becomes resolved. Until then, Benchmade is willfully violating Spyderco's trademark. Any other sort of un-patented and un-trademarked opening hole is acceptable as is any patented or trademarked opening hole licensed by the patent or trademark holder. That's all.
The problem is that the round opening hole is trademarked and Benchmade is using the round opening hole without permission. As soon as the opening hole, and only the opening hole, is no longer round, the issue becomes resolved. Until then, Benchmade is willfully violating Spyderco's trademark. Any other sort of un-patented and un-trademarked opening hole is acceptable as is any patented or trademarked opening hole licensed by the patent or trademark holder. That's all.
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mystillwater
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i don't buy it. sounds shaky. i don't think you can trademark something as vauge as "round opening hole".
i'm out.
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i'm out.
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thombrogan
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Shards of Narsil
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Let's take a step back here <img src="smile.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle border=0>
cdf asked this question to get a feel of the general opinion on the Forum. To start it off, he suggested that Spyderco had more 'raw creative energy' while Benchmades seemed 'more engineered'.
4 s ter disagreed on the second and Ted prefered Spyderco's choice of steel and mentioned the 'Skirmish Blackwood 'hole' issue'.
Nonetheless, I think it might be an exageration to say that the post went bad within 3, mystillwater. Lots of folks here said good things about the Axis lock and not one opposing peep was heard about the better 'fit and finish' of Benchmades.
I just think that 4 s ter only disagreed that the Benchmade advantage was engineering and that Ted only showed that he prefered VG-10/S30V to 440C/154CM. Some folks raised other points too, more lefty friendly e.t.c. and no one when ballistic or anything.
I think the posts became a little more edged when the word 'slander', 'whine and complain' and 'bitter jealous following' came up. People reacted to that, and I think they had not been given enough cause to be called that at all.
However, you have a VERY valid point to make.
I think what you are trying to get across is that there needs to be a way to share and let innovations spread through the whole industry. That maybe there needs to be a better way to let innovators be recognized and rewarded, while still letting other companies share in the new ideas. I don't think that trademark infringement is to be admired, but it is not a perfect system either for the growth of the industry and the benefit of knife fans everywhere.
You can feel somewhat vindicated. Sal has raised this EXACT same issue before over here in this thread:
http://www.spyderco.com/forum/topic.asp ... lse&S=True
That being said, let's get back to pointing out what we like about Spyderco and Benchmade respectively.
Shards
cdf asked this question to get a feel of the general opinion on the Forum. To start it off, he suggested that Spyderco had more 'raw creative energy' while Benchmades seemed 'more engineered'.
4 s ter disagreed on the second and Ted prefered Spyderco's choice of steel and mentioned the 'Skirmish Blackwood 'hole' issue'.
Nonetheless, I think it might be an exageration to say that the post went bad within 3, mystillwater. Lots of folks here said good things about the Axis lock and not one opposing peep was heard about the better 'fit and finish' of Benchmades.
I just think that 4 s ter only disagreed that the Benchmade advantage was engineering and that Ted only showed that he prefered VG-10/S30V to 440C/154CM. Some folks raised other points too, more lefty friendly e.t.c. and no one when ballistic or anything.
I think the posts became a little more edged when the word 'slander', 'whine and complain' and 'bitter jealous following' came up. People reacted to that, and I think they had not been given enough cause to be called that at all.
However, you have a VERY valid point to make.
I think what you are trying to get across is that there needs to be a way to share and let innovations spread through the whole industry. That maybe there needs to be a better way to let innovators be recognized and rewarded, while still letting other companies share in the new ideas. I don't think that trademark infringement is to be admired, but it is not a perfect system either for the growth of the industry and the benefit of knife fans everywhere.
You can feel somewhat vindicated. Sal has raised this EXACT same issue before over here in this thread:
http://www.spyderco.com/forum/topic.asp ... lse&S=True
That being said, let's get back to pointing out what we like about Spyderco and Benchmade respectively.
Shards
Sal said beginning this week that he will answer questions about the issue later this week. Check this thread:
<A HREF="http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showt ... ost2523373" TARGET=_blank>Blade Forums 'Holey Cow' thread (release of the BM 630) Post #28</A>
Latest post from Sal on 04-20-2004:
<I>
>>>Not forgotten, just busy.
>>>I should be able to answer questions and provide explanations later this week.
>>>sal</I>
For the rest, interesting discussion and debate. Lots to learn here.
Ted
Edited by - Ted on 4/22/2004 1:25:28 AM
<A HREF="http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showt ... ost2523373" TARGET=_blank>Blade Forums 'Holey Cow' thread (release of the BM 630) Post #28</A>
Latest post from Sal on 04-20-2004:
<I>
>>>Not forgotten, just busy.
>>>I should be able to answer questions and provide explanations later this week.
>>>sal</I>
For the rest, interesting discussion and debate. Lots to learn here.
Ted
Edited by - Ted on 4/22/2004 1:25:28 AM
<B>mystillwater</B> wrote:
<I>>>>i don't buy it. sounds shaky. i don't think you can trademark something as vauge as "round opening hole".
>>>i'm out</I>
<B>thombrogan</B> wrote:
<I>>>>Well, circular opening hole. And they did, so it must at least have been possible at the time and is stil a valid trademark. </I>
The 2004 catalog mentions the following trademark:
'Round Hole Design'
it does not say
'Round opening Hole'
AFAIK (from reading forums), you can't trademark functionality ('..opening..'). You can only patent that for a certain time.
This is what I found on the US trademarks site:
<I>The mark consists of the configuration of a portion of the goods, namely a circular through hole formed in the body of a knife blade</I>
Reason I'm posting this is that I would really like to know how this all works...
Ted
Edited by - Ted on 4/22/2004 6:30:54 AM
<I>>>>i don't buy it. sounds shaky. i don't think you can trademark something as vauge as "round opening hole".
>>>i'm out</I>
<B>thombrogan</B> wrote:
<I>>>>Well, circular opening hole. And they did, so it must at least have been possible at the time and is stil a valid trademark. </I>
The 2004 catalog mentions the following trademark:
'Round Hole Design'
it does not say
'Round opening Hole'
AFAIK (from reading forums), you can't trademark functionality ('..opening..'). You can only patent that for a certain time.
This is what I found on the US trademarks site:
<I>The mark consists of the configuration of a portion of the goods, namely a circular through hole formed in the body of a knife blade</I>
Reason I'm posting this is that I would really like to know how this all works...
Ted
Edited by - Ted on 4/22/2004 6:30:54 AM
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4 s ter
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Ted
Thanks for the info - the link doesn't work but the source in still interesting.
I was using the term "Round Opening Hole" since that was the term used on page 294 of "The Spyderco Story - the New Shape of Sharp" which indicates that trademark number 2,033,317 was issued on 28 Jan 97.
Other Spyderco trademarks include the "Spyderco" company name, the "Bug" logo and the "Solo" name (and all the knife model names....)
"Not all who wander are lost"
Thanks for the info - the link doesn't work but the source in still interesting.
I was using the term "Round Opening Hole" since that was the term used on page 294 of "The Spyderco Story - the New Shape of Sharp" which indicates that trademark number 2,033,317 was issued on 28 Jan 97.
Other Spyderco trademarks include the "Spyderco" company name, the "Bug" logo and the "Solo" name (and all the knife model names....)
"Not all who wander are lost"
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4 s ter
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Shards of Narsil
Your summary, with regards to my initial comments, is correct. All I did was disagree that Benchmade had an engineering ADVANTAGE. Even though I am a Spyderco fan, I didn't suggest that Benchmade was at an engineering disadvantage - not worse, just not better <img src="smile.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle border=0>.
David
"Not all who wander are lost"
Edited by - 4 s ter on 4/22/2004 6:25:48 AM
Your summary, with regards to my initial comments, is correct. All I did was disagree that Benchmade had an engineering ADVANTAGE. Even though I am a Spyderco fan, I didn't suggest that Benchmade was at an engineering disadvantage - not worse, just not better <img src="smile.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle border=0>.
David
"Not all who wander are lost"
Edited by - 4 s ter on 4/22/2004 6:25:48 AM
4 s ter, appaerantly that link was a cached search.
Here's a pic of the result
<IMG SRC="http://www.ted.tweakdsl.nl/tm.jpg">
Ted
Here's a pic of the result
<IMG SRC="http://www.ted.tweakdsl.nl/tm.jpg">
Ted
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mystillwater
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well i'll be darned. you showed me a trademark document. if that doesn't shut me up then i don't know what would.
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thombrogan
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Dan Fisher,
No one's trying to shut you up. Well, you did in one post where you claimed you were out, but not even you can hold you back. <img src="wink.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle border=0>
I think that Ted was showing the trademark to show that it can, and has, been done and Spyderco succeeded in marking off the boundaries of their territory. That, and the clarifications of the negative images left in previous messages, appears to have been done to offer you an oppurtunity to see other sides of the polyhedron. Perhaps you would like to present why you believe that the round opening hole should be a freely available feature? Other than me, a lot of folks in Spyderville are very open minded and can be persuaded to see your point of view if you express it in a way that doesn't lash out at those who may disagree with you. Are you saying that the trademark thing is a law, but that it's a dumb law and is only serving to divide knifeknuts, impoverish the creative community, and ultimately impoverish both Sal and Les while enriching any legal counsel they employ? Why is it that this issue causes you irritation?
No one's trying to shut you up. Well, you did in one post where you claimed you were out, but not even you can hold you back. <img src="wink.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle border=0>
I think that Ted was showing the trademark to show that it can, and has, been done and Spyderco succeeded in marking off the boundaries of their territory. That, and the clarifications of the negative images left in previous messages, appears to have been done to offer you an oppurtunity to see other sides of the polyhedron. Perhaps you would like to present why you believe that the round opening hole should be a freely available feature? Other than me, a lot of folks in Spyderville are very open minded and can be persuaded to see your point of view if you express it in a way that doesn't lash out at those who may disagree with you. Are you saying that the trademark thing is a law, but that it's a dumb law and is only serving to divide knifeknuts, impoverish the creative community, and ultimately impoverish both Sal and Les while enriching any legal counsel they employ? Why is it that this issue causes you irritation?
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mystillwater
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sorry....too busy playing with my Skirmish to argue <img src="smile.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle border=0>
i just wanted someone too backup their claims with some sort of truth. if you are gonna step out and bash such a cool knife you better have a good reason.
anyway, back to the original topic. i'd agree, spyderco is a little bit more on the edge design-wise whereas benchmade is the hands-down winner in the fit and finish department. i prefer the axis lock over all others. i do like some of the blade shapes that spyderco offers like the dodo. i like the M2, D2, S30V and 154CM that benchmade offers as well as the S30V and the VG10 that spyderco offers. i think i like the variety of steels and heat treats of benchmades but i like the out-of-the-box sharpness that spyderco offers. also, i like that benchmade has offered lots of special editions over the years. i think benchmade has pushed the envelope more with locks in recent years but spyderco is offering new designed as well. in the end....i own both and wouldn't part with either. i do think the skirmish could cut my paramilitary in half....
i just wanted someone too backup their claims with some sort of truth. if you are gonna step out and bash such a cool knife you better have a good reason.
anyway, back to the original topic. i'd agree, spyderco is a little bit more on the edge design-wise whereas benchmade is the hands-down winner in the fit and finish department. i prefer the axis lock over all others. i do like some of the blade shapes that spyderco offers like the dodo. i like the M2, D2, S30V and 154CM that benchmade offers as well as the S30V and the VG10 that spyderco offers. i think i like the variety of steels and heat treats of benchmades but i like the out-of-the-box sharpness that spyderco offers. also, i like that benchmade has offered lots of special editions over the years. i think benchmade has pushed the envelope more with locks in recent years but spyderco is offering new designed as well. in the end....i own both and wouldn't part with either. i do think the skirmish could cut my paramilitary in half....
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samosaurus
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