Southard Pivot Bearing Rust w/ Pics

[PayneTrain]

CTS-204P is a fine, rust resistant steel. The ball bearing and/or race steel is, however, not. This surely happened one time when I gave it a good washing and didn't let it dry properly. The action was just awful and I was so distraught, as this is one of my favorite knives ever and blew my mind how smooth it was when I first got it. So I finally take it apart and this is what I find:






What I proceeded to do was use some green chromium oxide paste on a cotton swab and try my best to polish the rust off everything. I cleaned everything off, but not entirely, leaving a little polishing paste behind. Then I reassembled it and added some mineral oil, hoping it would soak up the paste so it could flow better throughout the bearings. I carried it for a couple days, flipping it when my hand was bored.

I just took it back apart to clean out the Cr₂O₃ and Fe₂O₃ laden oil, and reassembled it relatively dry. I can still feel a film of oil, but there isn't much. The action is much better, but still not as good as it once was. I'm thinking maybe a couple more treatments like this might help, but I'm not sure. Questions:
Does anyone have any tips or ideas to better repair a problem such as this?
Does Spyderco or any third party vendors carry these bearings so I could just replace them?
What about the races? And is that even the right term here? The washer-like things underneath the bearing assemblies.

Thanks folks, and I hope this never happens to any of you!

[Surfingringo]

Bummer. Keep us posted on how the fix goes. Kind of scares me as I just ordered my first knife with a bb pivot. hehe

[Evil D]

Get yourself some bearing grease when you put it back together. Trust me on this, it will make this knife smoother than it was when it was new and you won't have rust problems even if you put it away wet.

You can get this stuff at any bike shop.

[Surfingringo]

Get yourself some bearing grease when you put it back together. Trust me on this, it will make this knife smoother than it was when it was new and you won't have rust problems even if you put it away wet.

You can get this stuff at any bike shop.

Hey D, I've heard conflicting reviews on using grease on knife bearings. You find that works better than oil or dry lube? Do you have any issue with it attracting dirt gunk?

[Evil D]

Get yourself some bearing grease when you put it back together. Trust me on this, it will make this knife smoother than it was when it was new and you won't have rust problems even if you put it away wet.

You can get this stuff at any bike shop.

Hey D, I've heard conflicting reviews on using grease on knife bearings. You find that works better than oil or dry lube? Do you have any issue with it attracting dirt gunk?

My knives generally don't see any dirtier use than cardboard or wood/camping type environments, and pocket lint. So far I haven't had those issues. My opinion with bearings is that anything that grease will attract will likely need to be taken apart and cleaned when using oil/dry lubes also. Basically, if it would gunk up a pivot when using grease, it'll likely also gunk up the pivot when using oil. Performance wise it's a night and day difference. I was so impressed I took apart most of my knives and put that grease in the pivot, and I was able to finally adjust my 20CP Para 2's pivot tight enough that there's no side play anymore, while the blade will still fall shut by gravity. Also consider that while grease may attract dirt/lint, it will also prevent rust, so it's all give and take.

[spyderg]

I've used grease on bearings and find that it indeed gets dirt and gunk in there, however not much more than oil and it lasts longer,(for a fidgety guy like myself. open, close, open, close...) I don't use dry lube, tried on one knife with good but extremly short lived results. I can't remember what kind I used but had to reapply more times than it was worth. For me, pretty heavy grease is usually the way to go. I don't mind pulling my knives back apart for cleaning and regreasing.

[PayneTrain]

Yeah I've thought about using grease, but first I'd like to see if I can get it back into shape without it. I run all my knives dry, even the Southard. It flew open effortlessly at first, but if there is enough damage and pitting that I'll never get that back again without the help of a lubricant, I'll do it. I'm going to take it to work today and check things out under a microscope to see what I'm working with.

[Donut]

If you keep it oiled, it should resist rusting. I imagine if you just oiled that (two or three times) over the next couple months and didn't even take it apart, the rust would work itself out.

[wrdwrght]

Revealing and edifying thread. Thanks all.

[Evil D]

If you keep it oiled, it should resist rusting. I imagine if you just oiled that (two or three times) over the next couple months and didn't even take it apart, the rust would work itself out.

For that matter, if he left it together and sprayed the pivot out with WD40 and worked the pivot over and over while continuing to spray it out, that would likely do it in just a few minutes.

As for using them dry, I know a lot of guys have commented that they never lube their knives and they never have any issues, but I've also never bought a Spyderco that didn't have lube in the pivot right out of the box. I just follow their example.

[victorf]

Under the best scenario, the resulted "wear" between two moving parts "interface" over time without lubricant is not a pretty sight!

Certainly washing without drying will induce more problems than good with moisture.

Inducing polishing compound, essentially an abrasive, will not only remove rust but materials that directly provide the "fit" of mating components.

*****

There are many, one possible damage control solution is to submerge bearing/parts into a strong Dawn dishing washing solution, which is an effective but gentle degreaser and at the same time, offers some lube to the bearing/cage crevice interface, rotate bearings gently to remove polishing compound/rust, as much as practicable - or until satisfied. Shake dry.

Immediately submerge in an alcohol bath, to avoid bearings oxidation, as well as displacing internal residue water moisture, do the same as above. Alcohol will evaporate without residue.

After, maybe a good idea to use some sort of lube in the pivot to enhance lubricity as well as rust resistance.

[PayneTrain]

I hear you guys on the oil. I'm reluctant to use it on most of my knives, but I may start with this one. You guys are right about the oil escorting rust out, what little is left in there is still coming out brown so it still needs to be cleaned out more. After looking at the insides under a microscope, I notice the the following:

The bearings don't seem pitted exactly, more like lightly scratched or stonewashed and that is on a very small level. I wish I knew what they looked like brand new so I could assess if there really is appreciable damage or not. I don't believe any of my other knives have bearings, so I have nothing to compare with. I don't see any more green compound in there, but again the oil is still a little brown when dabbed up with a cotton swab and alcohol.

The detent ball may be a big source of my problem. The pivot is certainly looser when I hold the lock back, and less noisy as well (nothing extreme, you have to put the knife to your ear to really hear it). But the contact surface of the ball is flattened, and is clearly wearing a channel in the tang which can be seen in one of the pics. I wonder when this occurred, if it rusted there and wore down or if it is just wearing naturally. I can't imagine a feasible way to repair that, only to treat the symptom by lubricating it.

I know you're against it victor, but I feel like working in more polishing paste may help. It's really fine, 0.5 micron, so I don't think it should introduce any perceivable play if used sparingly. I'm hoping it will just smooth things out, round off any burrs, and just sort of refresh all the mating surfaces so they can wear together in a more normal manner. Though I do like your cleaning idea to get all that stuff out. There's still a little paste around the detent ball that I can't seem to remove, so maybe a good bath will do a better job.

[D-Roc]

We have a product north of the 49th. Not sure if its available south. Called CLR. A quick application of that will take your rust away, then you can proceed with whatever water proofing compound you choose.
Theres most likely an equivalent product in most places. Dissolves rust quickly...

[PayneTrain]

We do have CLR. Not sure what's in it though, so I'm hesitant to put it in my knife in case it reacts with something, ruins the finish, dissolves the nylon(?) bearing cage, or who knows. I've never used it and really don't know anything about it.

[Evil D]

CLR is most likely OK. If you can use it on sinks and tubs and faucets and such, I doubt there's anything in your Southard that it could hurt. G10 is known for it's chemical resistance so that should be fine. I regularly soak my shower head in the stuff and it is mostly plastic so I doubt it'll hurt the bearing cups. If nothing else I'd drop the bearings and washers in a cap full of it and see what happens.

If that's too risky for you, white vinegar will also remove rust if you soak a part in it. We use it all the time to remove rust from vintage bike parts. If anything you may not want to soak the blade in it since people do use vinegar to patina non stainless steels...I know 204 is supposed to be pretty stainless but that's about the only risk with vinegar that I can think of aside from the smell.

Last but certainly not lease is a product called oxalic acid. This stuff can usually be found at big hardware stores. This is the MIRACLE CURE for rust removal. I'm no chemist so I can't tell you how it works, but it's the stuff of legends in the restoration world. This is also commonly used in the bike world for restoring parts, and you can even soak parts that have decals on them and it doesn't harm them. This might be overkill for such small parts though.

Here's a great write up and pics of what an OA bath can do to rust. http://bmxmuseum.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=351132" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[xinam]

Bearings require a lubricant. Period. In my 19 yrs of experience working in the trades I have never seen/repaired a bearing that didn't require it. I have replaced many that failed due to lack of lubricant, or contamination. Bearing material have and ultra high polish, maybe and chromium finish(not really sure but they have a nice polish anyway). Depending on the application, a grease is selected per application I.E. high speed bearings require high temp grease etc. They require an ultra smooth surface and and ultra thin layer of lube to ride on. The tolerances assure the grease is thin.

I don't think this bearing is shot by any means but thats only because its so light duty. We could debate grease all day and its true that a specialized knife grease is probably the ticket for an knife afi. Personally I would go to the auto parts store and get a can of white lithium grease and just give it a little shot from time to time. Wipe the excess free as I stated earlier, you only need what it takes to coat the rollers and cage. Experience says that this will trap the remaining rust and like use it as a light abrasive to finish your re-polishing work. It may take a few days of use but eventually you'll wonder why you ever ran it dry.

[victorf]

I hear you guys on the oil. I'm reluctant to use it on most of my knives, but I may start with this one. You guys are right about the oil escorting rust out, what little is left in there is still coming out brown so it still needs to be cleaned out more. After looking at the insides under a microscope, I notice the the following:

The bearings don't seem pitted exactly, more like lightly scratched or stonewashed and that is on a very small level. I wish I knew what they looked like brand new so I could assess if there really is appreciable damage or not. I don't believe any of my other knives have bearings, so I have nothing to compare with. I don't see any more green compound in there, but again the oil is still a little brown when dabbed up with a cotton swab and alcohol.

Standard bearing ball mirror finish for precision application:

https://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=ht ... wAA&iact=c" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Balls having your description on the surface finish is compromised. But this is used on a light duty application, it will remain serviceable.

As long as migrate oil is not having the original color, there is contaminates within crevice.

The detent ball may be a big source of my problem. The pivot is certainly looser when I hold the lock back, and less noisy as well (nothing extreme, you have to put the knife to your ear to really hear it). But the contact surface of the ball is flattened, and is clearly wearing a channel in the tang which can be seen in one of the pics. I wonder when this occurred, if it rusted there and wore down or if it is just wearing naturally. I can't imagine a feasible way to repair that, only to treat the symptom by lubricating it.

Most detent ball has a higher HRc than blade tang and knife manufacturer often flatten it to provide a wider contact to lessen grooving blade tang with repeated transverse. It is where lubrication is best to minimize frictional abrasion to slow down the unavoidable sacrificial wear.

I know you're against it victor, but I feel like working in more polishing paste may help. It's really fine, 0.5 micron, so I don't think it should introduce any perceivable play if used sparingly. I'm hoping it will just smooth things out, round off any burrs, and just sort of refresh all the mating surfaces so they can wear together in a more normal manner. Though I do like your cleaning idea to get all that stuff out. There's still a little paste around the detent ball that I can't seem to remove, so maybe a good bath will do a better job.

Any type of polishing paste is essentially type of lapping compound.

Lapping compound is normally used on mating components near the end of a fit up process. After plan fit up is done, further lapping will only do more harm than good.

If it was my knife, I would not induce further damage with polishing/lapping compound, clean up by gentle agitate/flooding out polishing/lapping compound as best as I could, lightly lube the pivot and hope for the best.

Good luck!

[Surfingringo]

Bearings require a lubricant. Period. In my 19 yrs of experience working in the trades I have never seen/repaired a bearing that didn't require it. I have replaced many that failed due to lack of lubricant, or contamination. Bearing material have and ultra high polish, maybe and chromium finish(not really sure but they have a nice polish anyway). Depending on the application, a grease is selected per application I.E. high speed bearings require high temp grease etc. They require an ultra smooth surface and and ultra thin layer of lube to ride on. The tolerances assure the grease is thin.

I don't think this bearing is shot by any means but thats only because its so light duty. We could debate grease all day and its true that a specialized knife grease is probably the ticket for an knife afi. Personally I would go to the auto parts store and get a can of white lithium grease and just give it a little shot from time to time. Wipe the excess free as I stated earlier, you only need what it takes to coat the rollers and cage. Experience says that this will trap the remaining rust and like use it as a light abrasive to finish your re-polishing work. It may take a few days of use but eventually you'll wonder why you ever ran it dry.

Hi Xinam, how do you apply the grease to the bearings? Do you disassemble the knife? Thanks.

[spyderg]

I tried white lithium on my Brous SSF. Using the spray is messy. It seemed to work fine at first, but didn't last long at all, got "scratchy" after 20 flips or so. I tend to use a heavy grease from work, not sure what kind it is but it's used on wheel bearings for forklifts. It lasts a real long time, stays in where it should,(lighter grease or oil can ooze out and get messy). It does attract little grime but not really any more than other things I've tried. Since it does such a good job of staying on where I put it and not working it's way out, it only gets the dirt that works it's way in on it. These days the only knife I don't use it on is my Sebenza, it's works great but for some reason the knife loses that little "clink" when closing with it. I put the grease supplied with it back on and "clink".

[JNewell]

Oxalic acid and similar products will get rust off but will etch the surface of steel - if you want smooth action from the bearings, this will be counterproductive.