serrations geometry question

[clevelanddean]

General question that hopefully Sal can answer. Serrations. In my view serrations favor left hand users and I wonder why since most people are right handed.

Heres what im going on about. When held in hand (right handed) the serrations are inside/towards the body and the flat/chisel side faces out. To me this makes it seem like the angle of the blade has to be steeper to cut and material is swept down the blade angle towards the material being cut as opposed to, if reversed, upwards and away from the object. To me it would make more sense if this is reversed from how it exists. Best way to think about this would be regular edc tasks where the blade is being pushed away from the body. Yeah, yeah, yeah I know what serrations are "supposed" to be used for and thats not what im asking unless its material to the answer. I am at least a dual carrier, right now my Domino and harpy. I carry the harpy for sd but I do edc it. I have found myself saying a few times that I wish the serrations were on the other side. So im curious about this practice. Thanks for any input.

[stalag2]

I'm totally with you, i'm able to do finer and more accurate cut when i use a SE blade with my left hand, i can consistently carve wood easier and i'm still scratching my head asking myself why would you use a chisel edge the wrong way, but that's what you have to do with SE.

Sal once said it was for safety as when using it the asymetry steered the blade away from your body instead of toward your body, but i still feel it as a bad design choice and that probably plays a role in their demise.

[sal]

Hi Dean,

Stalag is correct. When we first made the serrations, we put them on the other side and had many complaints about the knife moving towards the hand hold the object being cut.

FYI, We still make many knives with serrations, mostly for harder use (Rescue, etc),

sal

[Surfingringo]

I'm totally with you, i'm able to do finer and more accurate cut when i use a SE blade with my left hand, i can consistently carve wood easier and i'm still scratching my head asking myself why would you use a chisel edge the wrong way, but that's what you have to do with SE.

Sal once said it was for safety as when using it the asymetry steered the blade away from your body instead of toward your body, but i still feel it as a bad design choice and that probably plays a role in their demise.

Hi Stalag, I tend to scratch my head at the fact that so many people say this. The vast majority of my chisel work is shaving, carving or making mortise cuts. All of which are predominantly bevel down cuts. I don't really think there is a "wrong way". (Well, obviously there is a wrong way to use a chisel, but not in regards to bevel up or down). Just depends on what type of cut you are making. I would agree with the op that the grind does force a right handed user to make higher angle cuts but this has not caused any practical issues for me in my use of serrated edge knives.

[clevelanddean]

Hi Dean,

Stalag is correct. When we first made the serrations, we put them on the other side and had many complaints about the knife moving towards the hand hold the object being cut.

FYI, We still make many knives with serrations, mostly for harder use (Rescue, etc),

sal

Sal, thank you for responding and again, one of the reasons I have become spydie fan aside of the quality is the fact that you yourself are active on the board in addition to running the company. That is extremely honorable to me so thank you and congrats on the new facility.

I get it. It just seemed not quite counter-intuitive but slightly odd. I love how the serrations cut and have every intention to collect and use several models with serrations. Being obsessed with wanting information I figured I'd ask. I have owned over 100 knives in my 40 years, 6 spydies in the past 6 months and I love them all. I am a lil too in love with the harpy which sparked this question. I intend on tracking down the illusive pe harpy and other variations.

This makes me think and ask...was there ever then a harpy made with the serrations on the opposite side? If so I will have another rarity to try to track down (do wish it had the handle size of the delica though but fine by me as it is).

Thanks again for the response.

[stalag2]

I was referencing a chisel as a chisel ground or chisel edged knife, not a woodworker chisel.
The right side on SE allows for a much lower angle of attack.
Try it, it aint that hard to figure.

Spyderco used to grind serrations on the right for lefties so with luck you can maybe still find a lefty Police.

[JD Spydo]

I was referencing a chisel as a chisel ground or chisel edged knife, not a woodworker chisel.
The right side on SE allows for a much lower angle of attack.
Try it, it aint that hard to figure.

Spyderco used to grind serrations on the right for lefties so with luck you can maybe still find a lefty Police.

I actually did at one time own an old school Carbon Fiber POLICE model which was a left handed model and the serrations from what I could remember were indeed ground on the opposite side of which 99% of all of their serrated blades are ground on. It's been a while since I owned that knife and I had it strictly as a rare collector's piece and never ever used it at all.

I've been saying for a long time now that Spyderco should consider a "Special Order" option>> not only for people that are left handed but to offer up the option to have certain models be available in Spyderedge or even combo edge for that matter.

I have noticed over the years that certain serrated models during the cutting tend to veer off in another direction unless you really put a lot of pressure and literally steer the knife through what you are cutting on. It's not a problem with every model and I never encountered that problem with any of the Hawkbills but it is a strange anomaly on certain models>> and it seems like it's the worst on full flat grind serrated models IMO.

[Surfingringo]

I was referencing a chisel as a chisel ground or chisel edged knife, not a woodworker chisel.
The right side on SE allows for a much lower angle of attack.
Try it, it aint that hard to figure.

Spyderco used to grind serrations on the right for lefties so with luck you can maybe still find a lefty Police.

Yes, I referenced that in my post....and I'm not very sharp, so I would agree that its not that hard to figure out. :) I was simply pointing to the fact that before you say that a chisel grind is the "wrong" way you have to identify what kind of cut you are making. Want to bite into material right handed at a lower angle? yes this kind of grind would be "wrong". Want to cut the same material without the knife digging? Want to make a right handed cut without the blade "steering" toward the left hand? Well then suddenly you find that it is ground correctly.

I don't really have an opinion on which way I would ultimately prefer the serrations to be cut but I can see the advantages and disadvantages of both. I can also tell you that in daily use of a se pacific salt I have had no issues with the serrations as they are currently ground. Anyway, all I'm saying is it depends on what you are doing. I just thought to describe the grind as "wrong" because it didn't work as well on one type of cut was a bit strong.

[stalag2]

Yes i understand that in some circumstance you wouldnt want the edge digging in too much in wood and thus use the beveled edge against the wood to make more superficial curls but in my uses i find i just want the SE blade to aggressively bite in the material without having to rise the blade.
I also like to be able to make thin slices without crushing soft materials and that is way less trivial to do with the beveled edge on the left for a rightie.
I often cut things against a ruler, again it is much easier to apply the flat edge against the ruler than the beveled edge also this configuration prevents steering as the ruler will counter it.
All in all i really like serrations but i would be much better served with a proper right handed chisel edge and then i could just carry a SE in my pocket and avoid feeling gimped.
Sounds weird but as it is i would really like to be left handed...

[Surfingringo]

All valid points Stalag. I would have to actually use both to know if I found one more useful than the other. My inclination is that for my average tasks I would not have an overwhelming preference but that doesn't mean that the difference wouldn't be more important for other users and other tasks.

also, my apologies if I was a bit crass in my first response.

[stalag2]

It's all good, i was quite blunt with my statement without explaining what i was using the knife for.

[DougC-3]

I'm just learning to really appreciate SE blades, and as a lefty, I much like the way the blade digs in for pruning limbs and thorny vines. This sometimes makes it possible to cut rose, Smilax, and other thorny vines one-handed, avoiding getting thorned in the other hand :) I've been meaning to use it some right handed for these tasks for comparison, but haven't got around to it yet. I suspect it would be just about as good either way. I'm using the Pacific Salt, D'Allara, and Byrd Hawkbill, and, in CE, Manix2 and Tenacious. I also have a Tenacious SE coming in the mail now, which I'm planning to carry as a second knife for yard and utility work.

[Donut]

I think if you cut cardboard, the angled side of the bevel would push away from what you're cutting... moving the edge towards the flat ground side.

[DougC-3]

I have noticed over the years that certain serrated models during the cutting tend to veer off in another direction unless you really put a lot of pressure and literally steer the knife through what you are cutting on. It's not a problem with every model and I never encountered that problem with any of the Hawkbills but it is a strange anomaly on certain models>> and it seems like it's the worst on full flat grind serrated models IMO.

I don't doubt that this is true, but from a logical standpoint, it seems that the handedness differences would decrease as the thickness behind the edge decreases, because, if you carry it to the extreme, with thickness = 0, then there would be no difference from one side to the other. I'll check this out in the real world when my FFG SE Tenacious gets here.

[JD Spydo]

I have noticed over the years that certain serrated models during the cutting tend to veer off in another direction unless you really put a lot of pressure and literally steer the knife through what you are cutting on. It's not a problem with every model and I never encountered that problem with any of the Hawkbills but it is a strange anomaly on certain models>> and it seems like it's the worst on full flat grind serrated models IMO.

I don't doubt that this is true, but from a logical standpoint, it seems that the handedness differences would decrease as the thickness behind the edge decreases, because, if you carry it to the extreme, with thickness = 0, then there would be no difference from one side to the other. I'll check this out in the real world when my FFG SE Tenacious gets here.

The two Spyderco SE models I've noticed that the most with are the FFG Endura and the big C-54 Calypso ( older original SE model). As I said I've never noticed it to be a problem with any of the Spyderedged Hawkbills.

It's interesting to note that when I had a fully serrated, stainless handled Caly Jr it would cut really nice and straight. Interesting feature of the stainless Caly Jr. is that it was the only Caly Jr with a hollow grind blade.

I'm hoping that Spyderco will someday look at some other serration patterns. Because I've never found a fully serrated Spyderco knife yet that cuts as nice and consistent as their older AUS-8 Catcherman fully serrated does>> it has a pattern I've never seen on any other Spyderco model but I sure would like to see it return.

[DougC-3]

I have noticed over the years that certain serrated models during the cutting tend to veer off in another direction unless you really put a lot of pressure and literally steer the knife through what you are cutting on. It's not a problem with every model and I never encountered that problem with any of the Hawkbills but it is a strange anomaly on certain models>> and it seems like it's the worst on full flat grind serrated models IMO.

I don't doubt that this is true, but from a logical standpoint, it seems that the handedness differences would decrease as the thickness behind the edge decreases, because, if you carry it to the extreme, with thickness = 0, then there would be no difference from one side to the other. I'll check this out in the real world when my FFG SE Tenacious gets here.

The two Spyderco SE models I've noticed that the most with are the FFG Endura and the big C-54 Calypso ( older original SE model). As I said I've never noticed it to be a problem with any of the Spyderedged Hawkbills.

It's interesting to note that when I had a fully serrated, stainless handled Caly Jr it would cut really nice and straight. Interesting feature of the stainless Caly Jr. is that it was the only Caly Jr with a hollow grind blade.

I'm hoping that Spyderco will someday look at some other serration patterns. Because I've never found a fully serrated Spyderco knife yet that cuts as nice and consistent as their older AUS-8 Catcherman fully serrated does>> it has a pattern I've never seen on any other Spyderco model but I sure would like to see it return.

Since you noticed it most with the Endura and Calypso, I was about to say length might play in, but what you said about the Catcherman nixed that! Since Spyderco makes mainly hollow ground and saber ground SE blades, with only a few FFGs, I thought that was mainly for strength of the teeth, but now I'm beginning to think the blade geometry of the HG and saber grinds may have a positive effect on cutting too. "Whittling" type cuts may not be the primary intent in either case, like pointing stakes, cutting off limbs, etc, but I think the straight hollow ground SE blades at least are very good at that.