Better steel for the value line

[elena86]

I know it's quite improbable but I wish Spyderco release a Tenacious sprint with a better steel.Not quite S30V but maybe....CTS-BD1 or something similar.The same for the entire value line.I know the price will go up a little but they will still sell very well IMO.

[bearfacedkiller]

You must have missed it but they are indeed sending some BD1 to mainland China to be used in some knives. I believe for regular production but am not sure.

[bearfacedkiller]

They have done a sprint in the Byrd line and they have done distributor exclusives in the value line so your request really is not that far fetched.

[JD Spydo]

You know the more I think about it we've had VG-10 as a mainline steel for the Japan made Spyders and S30V for the Golden, CO USA made Spyders for quite some time now. There certainly must be a newer/better blade steel that they can use for each sector of their great knife production.

OK I do realize that it would probably be more expensive but I still think it would jazz up the main line up a bit. It kind of blows my mind that Serrata is made with 440C :confused: which is a steel they were using on the Meerkat some ten years ago.

But on the other hand both VG-10 and S30V do seem to be well loved by many knife users. I know I like my VG-10 blades>> so I guess I'm just looking at it from a standpoint of>>> "maybe it's time for a change"??? But I guess you could also say "If It Isn't Broke, Then Don't Try To Fix It" >> I still think it would be something interesting to chat about.

[mastiff]

Better steel would be nice, but I'd much rather have some G-10 with more texture. That's what keeps the Tenacious out of my pocket on most days. The G-10 that they use on the Manix 2 or PM2 would be just great!

[tvenuto]

Stay tuned. There will indeed be some upgrades to Chinese spydies, but mostly via the Byrd line it seems.

[Stuart Ackerman]

JD
I knew that 440C reacts under casting to form the dendritic structure, and I spent a lot of money finding out that a "super steel" does not...
I have said this so many times before that 440C was chosen wisely, not to save money...but because the result was guaranteed...
440C is not a "useless"steel, and I will always have a soft spot for it...easy to sharpen, and holds an edge that satisfies me, even when not cast...

When cast, it is outstanding for my uses...

[elena86]

Stay tuned. There will indeed be some upgrades to Chinese spydies, but mostly via the Byrd line it seems.

Byrd line ?! Bleeeaks ! Tenacious deserves it more. Imagine an all black ninja Tenacious in CTS-BD1 !!!

[FCM415]

Yeah, dendtritic 440C was by Stuart's choice. Knife designer's prerogative :)

Im all for jazzy steel versions of my favorite knives but VG10 I still love.... It's a great user steel and people seem to forget that. Totally content with its performance across the board. Id rather have a Tenacious in VG than S30.

American steel to China though, Id live to see CPM154 :)

[JD Spydo]

JD
I knew that 440C reacts under casting to form the dendritic structure, and I spent a lot of money finding out that a "super steel" does not...
I have said this so many times before that 440C was chosen wisely, not to save money...but because the result was guaranteed...
440C is not a "useless"steel, and I will always have a soft spot for it...easy to sharpen, and holds an edge that satisfies me, even when not cast...

When cast, it is outstanding for my uses...

I wasn't necessarily implying that 440C was a junk steel per se>> what I was trying to get across was that 440C had been around for quite some time and I was thinking out loud that a new model knife should probably have a new type of steel just to spice up the line up a bit>> and I was thinking that a new steel would possibly enhance sales better.

I still have 2 models of Spyders that have 440C and I'm not planning on dumping them anytime soon. I've gone on record and said many times that the original Meerkat with 440C that was made in Golden was superior to AUS-6 IMO. And 440C is in no way inferior in comparison to a lot of other steels but I do find it harder to keep an edge for a longer period of time compared to many other steels I've used. For instance I find that VG-10 keeps an edge much better that 440C just by my own personal usage of the two steels. Just my .02 cents>> wasn't trying to offensive.

Hey if it works for the guy that designed it and if Spyderco sells them by the trainloads then more power to the both of them :)

[Cliff Stamp]

CTS-BD1 and 8Cr13MoV are the same class of steel, I don't see how it would be an upgrade in any respect. CTS-BD1 under the same naming system would be 9Cr16MoV. It would have very similar hardness, slightly higher corrosion resistance and volume fraction of carbide. But these are small changes as in on the order of ~1% primary carbide increase.

The difference in these properties are so small that even CATRA type tests would not pick them out unless multiple runs were averaged. As with most changes in steel it also isn't a free ride towards improvement town. The higher volume fraction of carbide will also reduce properties such as grindability, apex stability and toughness.

There is also no need to ship steels to China, China's ability to produce steel dwarfs the US, it would be like shipping ice to the Poles. And yes they have PM steels, high alloy tool steels, HSS, and any other steel you can name.

[glbpro]

I agree with Cliff's point about there being no free ride when it comes to improving steels. CTS BD1 was chosen as the entry level steel for all US-made Spydercos, and is essentially a US made version of Gingami 1, the steel that Spyderco originally started with in Japan. So in that sense it is not a new steel at all.

Secondly, I feel that in the same way as all Spyderco knives are quality products, all Spyderco steels have desirable characteristics and have been chosen for many reasons, cost being just one of them. I have just purchased my first Spyderco in 8Cr13MoV and am really looking forward to finding out how it compares to VG-10, which I am also a big fan of.

[tvenuto]

Byrd line ?! Bleeeaks ! Tenacious deserves it more. Imagine an all black ninja Tenacious in CTS-BD1 !!!

You have to remember the realities of the political landscape. Spyderco must protect themselves from the potential theft of their intellectual property, and China is notoriously lax in this regard. By "quarantining" certain designs in the Byrd line, Spyderco protects their main line from counterfeit.

[bearfacedkiller]

There is one major difference between BD1 and 9cr16mov and that is that BD1 is American made. This matters to some and for many people it does in fact add value to the knife. A lot of people don't like that many of the knife manufacturers have outsourced to China and adding an American made component means something to someone. I avoid chinese made products at all cost and while I do have Taiwanese Spyderco knives I will be avoiding anything from mainland China.

http://deathbychina.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Cliff Stamp]

Spyderco must protect themselves from the potential theft of their intellectual property, and China is notoriously lax in this regard.

It isn't really accurate to make that kind of statement because the US laws don't apply to the rest of the world and there is no reason to even suggest/think they should. It is obvious any other Country could make the exact same inverted claim. In the PRC, the entire concept of IPR is a very new one, while they accepted pressure to actually make such laws about 30 years ago, it was just that, a response to external pressure. The concept of IPC is one that is still very much not part of the culture in that respect. But again, judging one culture by the norms of another quickly gets you into odd situations because any way you want to make it, someone else can leverage the same right you are claiming and use it against you.

For example, Spyderco has a warranty exclusion on taking the knife apart, well in a lot of countries that doesn't matter because they have fit for purpose laws. This can mean, depending on the Country, that it doesn't even matter if there is a warranty, the product has to be replaced if it is defective for the purpose for which a reasonable person would infer based on the promotion/description. Under those types of laws Spyderco could not claim warranty voiding but the next time someone has that kind of an issue how do you think that Spyderco customer service would respond to someone saying they need to do it because of the warranty laws of another Country?

As for US-made, the entire reason that Spyderco, and other companies, out source to China is that people are not willing to pay for the higher cost of making US goods. If you want to actively prevent that then support US goods as much as possible, however trying to restrict non-US goods won't work and if Spyderco actually did that they would be under mining the entire reason they trade shifted over seas in the first place - price reduction. If you have the money to buy US products, great do it, however not everyone who buys Spyderco is even in the US so that likely isn't going to matter much to them anyway.

What Spyderco has done, is what a lot of companies are doing which is trying to maintain local production and integrating the lower cost of over seas production. At times, depending on how much the company sees the importance of local production they often run the over seas for the ability to even be able to produce locally. Just remember the next time you go in and ask/demand a wage increase, that is a pressure shifting production over seas as well. There is more to supporting local business than just buying local. And if you think steel alloying is complex then try looking at social economic theory.

[zhyla]

I think pricier steels in the budget lines is a bad idea. I don't think they compete on price very well against budget brands like Kershaw. A Tenacious is about 50% more expensive than other budget knives. It's better designed and constructed, and that makes it a successful model, but adding another $5 to the price is not helpful.

LOL @ the China fearmongers.

[tvenuto]

LOL @ the China fearmongers.

Sal told us a story at the Amsterdam Meet:

They visited a producer in China and in their lobby they had many examples of Spyderco knives that they had obviously reverse engineered and built. The owner or manager came out, and without a touch of irony said "Thanks for making so many good designs that we can make money from."

So yes, the attitude is different, and if you give a certain design to a certain producer, there is a very real possibility that they'll sell a run "out the back door" direct to aliexpress.

What Cliff says is correct, however it is not an argument against my point. My point is that Spyderco has taken their own steps to prevent the knockoff of their core "Spyderco" brand via the Byrd line. If a Chinese producer only makes Byrds they can't sell a Spyderco out the back door as easily. This has nothing to do with laws, and there are no issues with the statement that they must protect their intellectual property.

[Cliff Stamp]

This has nothing to do with laws, and there are no issues with the statement that they must protect their intellectual property.

Sorry, I wasn't clear, I was responding to the second part of the statement I quoted, not the first part. It is just a completely different culture.

[Blerv]

I'm with Cliff. They are so close in characteristics that the need for a change is strictly personal conviction. Still, it seems Spyderco is offering upcoming Byrds in BD1 which I expect is more a marketing thing than anything. I guess a result of the frequent, "I would buy ___ made in China except it has a crappy blade steel".

If a steel is difficult to work, not priced with volume such as the normal production steel, or is very costly to grind it's going to impact the price of the knife. At that point the "budget knife" isn't really in the same budget.

I've thought of buying a Tenacious many times. The ergonomics and styling kept me pulling the trigger more than the steel (8Cr is great, imho). That and $40 gets me over half-way to a Delica...

[glbpro]

I've thought of buying a Tenacious many times. The ergonomics and styling kept me pulling the trigger more than the steel (8Cr is great, imho). That and $40 gets me over half-way to a Delica...

I was in the same boat until recently getting my green G10 Tenacious, mainly because it had much better fit and finish than the normal production versions.

Despite the fact that they are almost exactly the same length when closed, the Delica is IMO a far superior EDC knife - it's partly the weight and partly the width of the closed package. No doubt the Tenacious design has its strengths but disappearing in your pocket is not one of them.

Bruno