The blurry line of fakes, clones, copies and knock-offs?

[kgriggs8]

With some Spyderco being made in China like the Persistance etc, and the Byrd line, what constitutes a "Fake" now? I hear Sanrenmu is a maker for some of the Spyderco knives and they sell high quality knives and make the Byrd line et al.

Is buying a Sanrenmu that looks like the Police model considered a "fake"? Does Spyderco consider it a fake? It is not called a Spyderco and doesn't have any Spyderco trademarks but it is obviously a Police copy with some changes. They also make near clones of the Lil' Temperance and others.

I had a fake Delica once and it was a total POS that broke into pieces in my hand. It looked like FRN but wasn't. These Sanrenmu knives are supposed to be a whole different ball of wax. From what I hear, they make the knives for Spyderco and Spyderco stamps their name on them and sells them.

I guess my question is, at what point is it a "fake"? I know it is complicated but would a non-logo Persistance made by the same company in China that makes them for Spyderco be a fake?

[rycen]

Is buying a Sanrenmu that looks like the Police model considered a "fake"? Does Spyderco consider it a fake? It is not called a Spyderco and doesn't have any Spyderco trademarks but it is obviously a Police copy with some changes. They also make near clones of the Lil' Temperance and others.

The hole is a trademark by Spyderco.

[kgriggs8]

The hole is a trademark by Spyderco.

I forgot about that.

Does anyone know for sure if this is the same company that makes knives for Spyderco? It would be a real slap in the face to Spyderco if the Chinese company they contracted with to make there knives started selling them on there own and cut out the middle man. A slap in the face but not surprising.

China doesn't care about copyrights or trademarks, they have proven that in spades. I guess the lesson is, chickens always come home to roost.

[Bluntrauma]

My problem with the whole thing is that they are taking intellectual property by copying their designs. I don't call them fakes because they aren't being passed off as a Spyderco product. I call them knock offs.

Recently I had one of these knives come into my possession. I would not purchase it just on general principal. It is a Sanrenmu copy of the Chris Reeve Sebenza. Is it close to the quality of a 400 dollar knife? **** no but you know what, it is made pretty well for what it is.

I have beat on it around the house trying to break it and it has held up very well. Problem is I can't bring myself to actually EDC it because I hate the entire premise of the company using someone elses designs.

I get the same bad taste in my mouth when I look at SOG's obvious theft of the Endura design in one of their own knives, SOGZILLA or some such nonsense.

Anyway, I just don't see why they can't come up with their own stuff. They have the means and the ability to put out decent knives.

Anyhow, a shot of what I call "the Sanbenza."

[The Deacon]

IMHO, any knife which uses patented features (whether covered by design or utility patent) or the trademarks of another company without that company's expressed consent is a fake and the company responsible for producing it is guilty of theft of intellectual property. You can attempt to justify that theft any way you please, but it's still theft. I realize that many today view intellectual property theft as acceptable, even fashionable, but some of us still consider it reprehensible.

[kgriggs8]

That Sanrenmu looks a lot like a Sebenza. I have owned real Sebenzas and I see no reason to copy the design. It is not that good of a design. It doesn't slice very well and I am not a fan of all metal handles. That stylized "R" logo is close to a copy of Chris Reeve's logo and is a clear attempt to mimic it IMHO.

I see nothing wrong with being inspired by a design but just copying is not be respected. They should have taken the Sebenza idea and made their own improvements and I would have respected it more. China is great at taking other people's creative work and ripping it off and making a profit. They do it all the time.

All that being said, I have a hard time feeling sorry for companies that Go to China for cheap labor and then complain that China took their ideas and ran with it. Spyderco willingly took jobs from Americans and moved them to China to avoid paying them a good wage. Now China is expanding their knife production and improving quality to the point it will not need American companies anymore. Sanrenmu could produce their own versions of the budget Spydercos for half the price and equal quality by simply cutting out the middle man.

Why pay Spyderco $40 for a Tenacious when Sanrenmu is probably making and selling them for less than $5.00? Spyderco is making a killing by pimping out their name and allowing China to do all the work. I haven't bought one of the Sanrenmu knives yet but something about the Chinese Spyderco doesn't sit well with me. I know full well that every Chinese Spyderco I buy is hurting American workers and helping make China stronger. I also know if I bought it directly from China, they wouldn't charge $40 for it, more like $10.

It is a gray area and sticky situation. I am not sure what to think really. I look for the best bang for the buck like everyone but I would gladly pay a little extra to keep jobs in the US and help the economy. The high end American knives are still the best in the world. I have a Benchmade 921s that I have carried every day at work for 5 years. There are not too many knives that could have withstood the abuse and use I put it through and at the same time been such an effective tool. It was expensive when new but if you pro rate the price and amount of use, it is probably one of the best values I have ever had. When I need a good knife or tool, I spend the money needed to get something good. I don't mess around with bargain hunting when I need it for work or to depend on. Most of my knives are Benchmades and Spydercos but there is a place for bargain knives.

[The Deacon]

That Sanrenmu looks a lot like a Sebenza. I have owned real Sebenzas and I see no reason to copy the design. It is not that good of a design. It doesn't slice very well and I am not a fan of all metal handles. That stylized "R" logo is close to a copy of Chris Reeve's logo and is a clear attempt to mimic it IMHO.

I see nothing wrong with being inspired by a design but just copying is not be respected. They should have taken the Sebenza idea and made their own improvements and I would have respected it more. China is great at taking other people's creative work and ripping it off and making a profit. They do it all the time.

All that being said, I have a hard time feeling sorry for companies that Go to China for cheap labor and then complain that China took their ideas and ran with it. Spyderco willingly took jobs from Americans and moved them to China to avoid paying them a good wage. Now China is expanding their knife production and improving quality to the point it will not need American companies anymore. Sanrenmu could produce their own versions of the budget Spydercos for half the price and equal quality by simply cutting out the middle man.

Why pay Spyderco $40 for a Tenacious when Sanrenmu is probably making and selling them for less than $5.00? Spyderco is making a killing by pimping out their name and allowing China to do all the work. I haven't bought one of the Sanrenmu knives yet but something about the Chinese Spyderco doesn't sit well with me. I know full well that every Chinese Spyderco I buy is hurting American workers and helping make China stronger. I also know if I bought it directly from China, they wouldn't charge $40 for it, more like $10.

It is a gray area and sticky situation. I am not sure what to think really. I look for the best bang for the buck like everyone but I would gladly pay a little extra to keep jobs in the US and help the economy. The high end American knives are still the best in the world. I have a Benchmade 921s that I have carried every day at work for 5 years. There are not too many knives that could have withstood the abuse and use I put it through and at the same time been such an effective tool. It was expensive when new but if you pro rate the price and amount of use, it is probably one of the best values I have ever had. When I need a good knife or tool, I spend the money needed to get something good. I don't mess around with bargain hunting when I need it for work or to depend on. Most of my knives are Benchmades and Spydercos but there is a place for bargain knives.

Total Biullshit. It's only grey to you because you want to see it that way. Theft is theft, plain an simple. Use of Spyderco's name and logos without permission is theft. Use of the Spyderhole without permission is theft. Doesn't matter if Benchmade does it, or Boker does it, or some sleazy outfit in China does it. They are all thieves and patronizing them means you condone theft.

[kgriggs8]

Total Biullshit. It's only grey to you because you want to see it that way. Theft is theft, plain an simple. Use of Spyderco's name and logos without permission is theft. Use of the Spyderhole without permission is theft. Doesn't matter if Benchmade does it, or Boker does it, or some sleazy outfit in China does it. They are all thieves and patronizing them means you condone theft.

First, take it down a notch tough guy. Second, I haven't bought any of the Chinese copies yet, I am just musing on what is a fake verses what is a knife that may be inspired buy another design. It is all gray area and life is full of gray areas. Only a simple mind sees everything in black and white.

If you can show me the line where a knife ceases to be inspired by another and starts becoming a copy, I would love to hear it. It doesn't exist. Take the Sanrenmu 710 for example, it is clearly inspired by the small Sebenza but they haven't used any trademarks or try to pass it off as a Sebenza. Is it a "fake" Sebenza? No way. Nobody would be fooled into thinking they were buying a real Sebenza with a Sanrenmu 710. That being said, the 710 looks more like a Sebenza to me than some of the "fake" Spydercos that simply use the hole and borrow lightly from some of the design elements of the general line like that Navy knife that looks like a mix between a G-10 Cara-Cara, a Military, an Endura and a Police. It is clearly not trying to copy any one of those knives but it does use the Spyderco hole. They are the company that makes knives for Spyderco in China so they may be allowed to use the hole, I am not sure.

If Spyderco wants to go after companies that infringe on their patents, they can start in their own back yard with the company they hired to make their knives for them in China. My guess is they don't want to risk losing the cheap labor so they are forced to shut up and leave Sanrenmu to do what it wants. If Spyderco makes a stink about it, they would have to find another source of cheap labor that can still produce the quality that Sanrenmu is known for. It may not be easy so maybe it pays to just let Sanrenmu do what they want as long as they are not directly competing with Spyderco's sales. We all know how appeasement ends up thanks to WWII.

[The Deacon]

No, I won't "take it down a notch". You think there's a blurry line. I think it's crystal clear where there is obvious theft of intellectual property.

Regarding the Sanrenmu 710 my answer would be that if Chris Reeve had an active design patent on the Sebenza at the time Sanrenmu started making the 710, then it's a violation of that. Otherwise, it's an obvious, but not illegal, copy.

As for Spyderco going after those who infringe. For one thing, I would love to see proof of what you allege. It also seems like you didn't notice this thread Kristi recently posted.

[kgriggs8]

No, I won't "take it down a notch". You think there's a blurry line. I think it's crystal clear where there is obvious theft of intellectual property.

Regarding the Sanrenmu 710 my answer would be that if Chris Reeve had an active design patent on the Sebenza at the time Sanrenmu started making the 710, then it's a violation of that. Otherwise, it's an obvious, but not illegal, copy.

As for Spyderco going after those who infringe. For one thing, I would love to see proof of what you allege. It also seems like you didn't notice this thread Kristi recently posted.

I don't "think" there is a blurry line, I know there is. You think it is cut and dried but admit you have no idea where the line starts and stops. The difference between us is that I admit that I am unclear where the line is and you are simply clueless as to what you know and don't know. You don't even know what you don't know.

Where is the line between the Sanrenmu 710 and the Sebenza? What level of influence did they take from the Sebenza design and when does it become a copy? You admit you have no idea where the line is yet are sure it is there (somewhere). That's a level of muddled thinking that would be hilarious if it wasn't just plain sad. If there is a line, show it to us, if you can't, shut your trap.

[The Deacon]

Where is the line between the Sanrenmu 710 and the Sebenza? What level of influence did they take from the Sebenza design and when does it become a copy? You admit you have no idea where the line is yet are sure it is there (somewhere). That's a level of muddled thinking that would be hilarious if it wasn't just plain sad. If there is a line, show it to us, if you can't, shut your trap.

I thought I made it clear, but perhaps you're the one so intent on believing what you want to believe that you missed it. The line is whether or not CRK had a design patent on the Sebenza at the time Sanrenmu started making the 710. The Sanrenmu 710 is a obvious and blatant visual copy of the Sebenza. A person would have to either be blind or extremely dim witted not to see that, heck even you noticed it. I'm not, and never claimed to be, an expert on CRK and their patents so no, I don't know for certain whether it's just a question of Sanrenmu lacking the imagination to design something of their own, or of them stealing CRK's intellectual property. But, then again, I don't own a 710 or have any desire to, so knowing which category it fits in is not impo0rtant to me, if I were considering such a purchase, it would become vitally important and I would make it my business to find out.

Truth is, you're an angry little man. You're anger with at Spyderco for producing knives in China is painfully obvious in your comments. The lies, half-truths and innuendos you us to express that anger have all been used before to the point where they've become tiresome. Fact is, Spyderco has outsourced the majority of its knife production overseas since day one. Outsourcing to China just seems to strike a nerve in some that outsourcing to other countries does not. Fact is, no jobs were "taken from Americans and moved to China" by Spyderco. The models made there have only ever been made there. Thinking they could be made here to sell at the same prices is idiotic. Thinking they'd sell even half as well at twice their current prices equally so.

[kgriggs8]

I am not angry. I was simply asking what specific patents Sanrenmu infringed on when making the 710. It is clearly inspired by the Sebenza, that is obvious. What is not so obvious and what the entire point of this thread is about is, where is the line between a fake and a knife that borrows some styling aspects from another knife.

I maintain that the line is murky and wanted to clarify it as best I could. You maintain that the line is crystal clear yet you admit you have no idea where it is. You are sure it exists and are quite rude about it yet when asked, you have no idea what you are talking about. I am not angry but Incan see why you are getting defensive after looking a bit foolish. It is not my problem that you lack critical thinking skills and it certainly doesn't make me angry.

Let's take it back to an example that jumps to mind from the past. Bob Loveless had a certain style back in the 1980s with his drop point hunter fixed blades. His design was unique and easy to identify. I remember after he became popular that many other custom knife makers used his specific styling points on their own knives. Many were close copies but I don't remember anyone claiming that they were ripping him off. In fact I remember seeing him with another maker who had made a knife like Loveless makes and congratulating him on his good work and being flattered that he was being imitated.

So, the line is not clear at all and seems to be more about money and legal disputes than anything else. I honestly don't see the Sanrenmu being a copy or a fake of the Sebenza. Nobody is going to mistake a $7 Sanrenmu for a $400 Sebenza and CR is not losing any sales because of it. You can find a $7 Loveless inspired fixed blade that looks like something Loveless would make but nobody is going to think that the $7 drop point hunter they bought at Wally World is an actual custom made Bob Loveless knife. It is the exact same thing with the Sanrenmu. You may not like the fact that China has made a Sebenza inspired knife but whatever hang ups you have with China are besides the point.

Thenfact remains that the line between fake, copy and knives that are "inspired" by another design are a sticky situation. In your over confident black and white mind I am sure there is a clear right and wrong in every situation but in the real world, things are seldom that simple. I enjoy exploring gray areas and finding nuance and learning from it. You seem to be the kind of person that wants to pigeon hole everything. It is a metal weakness on your part but a common one. The lazy mind craves black and white answers, it takes time and effort to explore the subtleties of a situation. I can't be angry with you because I have dealt with too many people who think like you, it has become more tiresome now than annoying. Your brain is just wired differently, that's all.

[kgriggs8]

Let me ask you this, is the Spyderco ball bearing lock a copy, fake, clone, knock-off or simply inspired by Benchmade's Axis lock? Cleary the ball bearing lock came after the Axis lock and was an attempt to capitalize on the wildly popular Benchmade design. Spyderco was cleaver enough to change enough of the design elements to keep it legal but in your mind is it morally reprehensible? Is coping a complicated Axis lock design more or less morally wrong as drilling a hole in a blade? Should we boycott Spyderco like you suggest we do for Benchmade? Was Spyderco too lacking in imagination to design something of their own or were they stealing Benchmade's intellectual property? Hmmm?

The world awaits your answer MR. Black and White.

[The Deacon]

Let me ask you this, is the Spyderco ball bearing lock a copy, fake, clone, knock-off or simply inspired by Benchmade's Axis lock? Cleary the ball bearing lock came after the Axis lock and was an attempt to capitalize on the wildly popular Benchmade design. Spyderco was cleaver enough to change enough of the design elements to keep it legal but in your mind is it morally reprehensible? Is coping a complicated Axis lock design more or less morally wrong as drilling a hole in a blade? Should we boycott Spyderco like you suggest we do for Benchmade? Was Spyderco too lacking in imagination to design something of their own or were they stealing Benchmade's intellectual property? Hmmm?

The world awaits your answer MR. Black and White.

The ball bearing lock may have some visual similarity to the Axis lock, but it works on an entirely different principle. There are earlier locks like the Collins Bolt Action lock, which are visually similar to both, but again use different mechanical principles to achieve that. Who can tell which of them, if any, the ball bearing lock drew inspiration from, or which of the earlier ones the Axis may have drawn inspiration.

In neither case is it important. Finding different, and hopefully better, ways to accomplish a task is how progress is made. The US government saw sufficient difference between them to grant them both patents. That may not count for anything under your scoring system, but to me it's something that would not have happened, or gone uncontested if it did, if the ball bearing lock merely copied the Axis.

As for the 710, I'm sure that if you or I were to ask on the Bladeforums CRK forum we could find out if the Sebenza is/was covered by a design patent. The fact that have never taken the time to do so is irrelevant, since I'm not interested in the 710 and have never claimed to have anything more than vague knowledge of, or interest in, CRK products. What's important is that the answer to that question is not "grey". It's either yes or no. Granted, there may be a few "grey area" cases out there, but I still contend that most of them involve theft of trademarks and/or patents.

[Owl45]

I get the same bad taste in my mouth when I look at SOG's obvious theft of the Endura design in one of their own knives, SOGZILLA or some such nonsense.

Yes, it was the Sogzilla and I don't think anyone would argue its a pretty blatant copy.
If you talk to any of the SOG guys they will privately admit this was not SOGs most shining moment. It generated a lot of negative reactions for them.

IMHO, any knife which uses patented features (whether covered by design or utility patent) or the trademarks of another company without that company's expressed consent is a fake and the company responsible for producing it is guilty of theft of intellectual property. You can attempt to justify that theft any way you please, but it's still theft. I realize that many today view intellectual property theft as acceptable, even fashionable, but some of us still consider it reprehensible.

Pretty much agree. The maker is a fraud; the buyer is showing questionable judgement.

Gentlemen, we're combining two areas which many folks feel VERY strongly about, and which almost always leads to threads discussing them going down hill rapidly.
One being knockoffs and the other being stuff made in China.

Knockoffs offend many folks while others see them as a chance to get something they like the look of but cannot afford the original.
I can see the appeal but aside from the moral, ethical or legal reasons they are offensive, the likelihood that what you get will be junk is very high. The company selling them does not care if they are "stealing" so why would you trust them to make something decent?
To me its much like the phone calls I get that start off with "I'm not selling anything" or "I'm with so-and-so bank and have a special offer for you". I immediately lose interest because they have started off by lieing to me...why would I care what else they have to say?
I never have and never will buy a knife knockoff.

China made items deeply offend many people. I totallly respect anyone who refuses to buy products made in China for the numerous personal reasons.
But quality should not be one of those reasons. Sure, they build a lot of crap, but so did Japan early on. China is very capable of building quality items when they choose to. Examples from Spyderco and others prove this.
AG Russell has addressed the subject several times at length. When asked why he does it, he basically replied "to stay in business". AG has been asked why he doesn't have some of his china-made slippies made in the US, and indicated they would cost 5 to 10 times as much for the same quality, and the quality is there in the ones he has made to his standards.

[ChrisR]

Is buying a Sanrenmu that looks like the Police model considered a "fake"? Does Spyderco consider it a fake? It is not called a Spyderco and doesn't have any Spyderco trademarks but it is obviously a Police copy with some changes. They also make near clones of the Lil' Temperance and others.

Aren't you confusing SanRenMu with Navy knives here? I don't see any fakes in the current SRM product list but Navy have some very questionable knives and I think Sal has gone on record to say that Navy and SRM are entirely different kettles of fish. If Sal has chosen SRM to make the budget Spyderco knives then I'm happy that they have high standards, otherwise Sal wouldn't have chosen them. The only product that seems to have an 'issue' would be the 962 but whether they are using the hole with or without Spyderco's permission is probably confidential information.

Also, buying a Spyderco that has been made in China is different from buying an SRM knife. It's true that they are both made in China but the profits from the sale of Spyderco knives go back to the USA and help pay the salaries of the workers at Golden. Manufacturing some products in China isn't selling out - it's common sense because Spyderco needs knives in that 'budget' price bracket to compete with other manufacturers, and it would be nigh impossible to make them in the West for the same price/quality.

As to the similarities between some SRM knives and other well-known brands, that just highlights the fact that you can't patent a blade shape or general design ... only certain aspects of the mechanics, like lock types and opening methods. In fact the Spydie-hole is covered by trademark not copyright laws, IIRC.

[zidfeldts]

If it doesn't feel right then it probably isn't. We all know whose design things are; if you are willing to compromise your own principles to save a few bucks on a knockoff then I feel really sorry for you.

[224477]

Kgriggs8,

I think you have chosen a rather strange stange point with this topic in a place like this.
This subforum started with purpose to keep people informed about what not to buy, to avoid them of being fooled by counterfeit 'spyderco' knives, etc. and not to persuade them that buying a knife made by possibly the same maker OEM is better as buying the original. If you wish, buy what you think its best value for you. But I am not sure your perspective to be right in someone elses house, Sal Glessers house, in this case.

[SolidState]

I don't "think" there is a blurry line, I know there is. You think it is cut and dried but admit you have no idea where the line starts and stops. The difference between us is that I admit that I am unclear where the line is and you are simply clueless as to what you know and don't know. You don't even know what you don't know.

And you probably wonder why we are in a depression with your blurry lines about illegal behavior and economic undercutting.........

Remember when we went to war in Korea and Vietnam to prevent communists from undercutting capitalism? Americans died to clarify a line for you and preserve your freedom. It is sad that Americans don't generally respect this fact.

[Bluntrauma]

Yes, it was the Sogzilla and I don't think anyone would argue its a pretty blatant copy.
If you talk to any of the SOG guys they will privately admit this was not SOGs most shining moment. It generated a lot of negative reactions for them.

I can understand completely. As big of a fan as I am about certain models, I would be critical had I seen a reputable company take the low road like I think SOG did with that knife.

It has gotten to the point with me that I look at Ebay like some kind of freak show. More and more I see knives that are almost exact copies of Kershaw, Buck, Spyderco and on and on.

I also see plenty that just flat out lie and call it the brand that it isn't. I just don't get it. The knife that I posted up earlier was given to me and I can honestly say that I am ashamed to own it. I even hesitated to post the picture because it goes against everything I believe in.

Sure, it's not that bad and it's every bit worth the 10 or 12 bucks that it probably cost but it is a glaring example of what we are turning into and I don't like it.

I would hate to venture to think how much time and money it takes Spyderco to bring a new design to the forefront and to see it just bastardized is a sad thing to watch.

I was reading something here lately about a new Kershaw ZT model that they were going to release at blade. Some early pics came out of the knife and before you know it, here comes Microtech with something that looks a bit too close for comfort to me.

Kershaw:



Microtech: