The blurry line of fakes, clones, copies and knock-offs?

[Slash]

interesting, I didn't know about those microtechs. I wonder which one was designed first. as in who copied who.
that knife (ZT 777) won blade of the year.

[Owl45]

interesting, I didn't know about those microtechs. I wonder which one was designed first. as in who copied who.
that knife (ZT 777) won blade of the year.

Who is copying who is usually hard to tell. There are lengthy discussions about this one on the Microholics forum and on Kershaw's forum at BladeForums.

The ZT was shown at Blade this year (for the first time IIRC) and they had prototypes there to see and handle.

Apparently MT has already produced their version and it was being sold at a recent show (Taiwan I think).

Not being on the inside I do not know who came up with what first.
For my part, I have a more warm and fuzzy feeling about Kershaw/ZT.

And if you thought the 777 was a tad pricey, MTs version is about triple that. :eek:

I can understand the.....uhhh..greed....of knockoff makers, they want to make a quick buck selling what is generally junk.
I do not understand why normally reputable manufacturers choose to make an obvious copy of another brands knife. It certainly can't add that much to their bottom line and the negative reaction can't be good for them.

[Bluntrauma]

The chicken or the egg? Not sure but from Thomas of Kershaw.

The ZT0777 is an in-house Kai design. Jim MacNair headed the project, and was assisted by the talents of the R&D team surrounding him. We did not work with MT on the design. Never consulted with them. Their "Project X" knife is on them. They opted to create another manufacturer's design. That is their prerogative. It is what it is.

To say the 0777 or the "Project X" came from Dmitry or was inspired by his work as stated on a MT forum would be inaccurate.

Regardless, it comes back (to me) to a bigger issue, taking others designs. With all these China made knives it's almost expected. They have shown themselves to be unscrupulous time and again. I guess when it all comes down to me I am more like Deacon and see no grey area to the subject. Theft is theft.

[Blerv]

If the intent is to deceive it's a fake. Like when something from a knock-off shop makes something and puts "Spyderco" on it and the box when it wasn't made by the real company.

Chinese Spyderco's are Spydercos...because the designs were done by the company and the funds go back to the company.

There have been quite a few other "real" brands who have mimicked Spyderco designs to a CREEPY level. The only difference between these models and the pure fakes is the chance of quality or the intent of not deceiving.

If you buy a Fiero with a bodykit and know it's not a Ferrari it's different than if someone sells a Fierro GT and says it's a 308. I won't touch the topic of outsourcing as it's less fun than picking gum out of one's hair.

[kgriggs8]

And you probably wonder why we are in a depression with your blurry lines about illegal behavior and economic undercutting.........

Remember when we went to war in Korea and Vietnam to prevent communists from undercutting capitalism? Americans died to clarify a line for you and preserve your freedom. It is sad that Americans don't generally respect this fact.

Not sure how you managed to glean that take of what I was saying. I guess you can think what you want, no matter how unfounded. I get that you are mad about the decline of the American manufacturing base and I am with you brother. I am the one who voiced my concern over the Chinese Spydercos in the first place. I see more and more American jobs getting outsourced and know we will have to pay in the end. The middle class is hurting in this country because we allow too much of this kind of thing.

Never have I advocated buying a knock off much less own one myself. I am just trying to get a handle on what is what and where the line is between a deliberate forgery and knife that looks similar in some aspects of design.

[kgriggs8]

Aren't you confusing SanRenMu with Navy knives here? I don't see any fakes in the current SRM product list but Navy have some very questionable knives and I think Sal has gone on record to say that Navy and SRM are entirely different kettles of fish. If Sal has chosen SRM to make the budget Spyderco knives then I'm happy that they have high standards, otherwise Sal wouldn't have chosen them.

Actually I am confusing the two. I am unclear on which Chinese knife company is which. I sort of lumped Sanrenmu, Navy and Enlan together because I thought they were the same company. I know Sanrenmu has a "tactical" division they call "Land" and I think that is the same thing as Enlan based on the similar knives but Navy may be a separate company all together.

I thought Navy might be the maker of the Byrd line since the steel is the same, the liners are the same, the g-10 looks the same and just overall that Navy knife appears to me to be a Byrd Cara-Cara with some design changes. I can't be the only one who noticed how much it looks like a G-10 Byrd knife. It seems too close to be a copy, it looks like the real deal as far as materials. I wouldn't be at all surprised to hear that Navy makes the Byrd knives for Spyderco. I would be surprised to hear they didn't because they look so similar.

[The Deacon]

Not sure how you managed to glean that take of what I was saying. I guess you can think what you want, no matter how unfounded. I get that you are mad about the decline of the American manufacturing base and I am with you brother. I am the one who voiced my concern over the Chinese Spydercos in the first place. I see more and more American jobs getting outsourced and know we will have to pay in the end. The middle class is hurting in this country because we allow too much of this kind of thing.

Never have I advocated buying a knock off much less own one myself. I am just trying to get a handle on what is what and where the line is between a deliberate forgery and knife that looks similar in some aspects of design.

I know it's hard for you, but try to get it into your head that not one single "American job" was outsourced to China by Spyderco. None of the knives made there would have ever been made in Golden. It's even likely that jobs were created in Golden by the need to inspect, package, and ship the knives manufactured in China.

Truth is, every job at Spyderco in Golden was created by the need to provide those services for knives manufactured outside the USA. Spyderco began having knives manufactured for it in 1981. The first US made Spyderco, the C15 Terzuola, did not go into production until 1990, and even that was outsourced. Spyderco's production facility was built with the profits from knives made elsewhere. It would not exist if it were not for those profits, nor would any of the manufacturing jobs it provides. I strongly suspect that the planned expansion of the Golden production faciliity will be financed in part by profits from the knives Spyderco has manufactured in China.

That's the reality, whether you choose to accept it or not.

[Blerv]

My understanding is the Golden plant is pretty small. Give or take 40 jobs since someone last said. I could be WAY off though.

Sure it would be great if Spyderco had 300 employees in Golden, maybe 1,000. Does anyone have any idea what running that much payroll is like opposed to selectively having knives built in other factories?

Back on the topic of "what is fake?" if Spyderco intends to put their name on a product, it's real. One shop in China may look like the next but not to the person who puts their neck on the line for the end result. Spyderco has to deal with QC, Warranties, and potentially wounded customers.

Scam artists don't worry about that stuff because their customers call up the real company pissed.

[sal]

Hi Kgriggs8,

I believe that I can answer most of the questions you have. It will take a few posts for sure. I'll pick it up again when I get home.

I will say that you have "impressions" that are not accurate. Perhaps I can clarify these for you.

sal

[Waffle]

For what it's worth, I agree that if something is blatantly copied and sold as a "Spyderco", it's a fake. Borrowing or stealing designs and reworking them, is well.. Not a fake. It may lack originality, but If isn't marketed as "Spyderco", it isn't "fake".

That being said, I personally won't buy other knives with "spyder holes" or noticeable similarities to Spyderco models. That's my preference. I buy and support American made when I can!! It'd be great if every Spyderco could be built in the USA but it's just not goin to happen. it is what it is.

We're all fans of Spyderco in here.. knives at the very least, so let's be grateful that Spyderco exists and has these original designs; look at it as a compliment when others "borrow" or "steal" Spyderco's designs. I stick to Spyderco and support them. The onus is on us as individuals to decide whether or not we'll support thievery/fakes/stolen ideas/etc!

----------- waffle

This world is made of Love and Peace

[sal]

Hi Waffle,

Welcome to the Spyderco forum. Thanx for chiming in. This is a very controversial subject in any discussion.

Perhaps I can share some knowledge to promote a better understanding.

With some Spyderco being made in China like the Persistance etc, and the Byrd line, what constitutes a "Fake" now? I hear Sanrenmu is a maker for some of the Spyderco knives and they sell high quality knives and make the Byrd line et al.

SanRenMu is as knife manufacturer in China. They make some models for Spyderco.

High quality is a very broad subject. At this time there are no really "high quality" ( by my standards) steels made in China, so that would be in question. SanRenMu is trying to improve the quality of the steel they use, but they're not there yet. The many other "high quality" areas are a subject in itself and probably not relevant to the subject at hand.

SanRenMu makes none of the byrd models.

Is buying a Sanrenmu that looks like the Police model considered a "fake"? Does Spyderco consider it a fake? It is not called a Spyderco and doesn't have any Spyderco trademarks but it is obviously a Police copy with some changes. They also make near clones of the Lil' Temperance and others.

I don't think that SanRenMu is making a copy of our Police model. We have a good relationship and they understand our values and history. I don't think that SanRenMu would do something to hurt their relationship with Spyderco. The same goes for the Lil Temperance. For you to assume that they make these models is irrational. There are hundreds of knifemakers in China.

I had a fake Delica once and it was a total POS that broke into pieces in my hand. It looked like FRN but wasn't. These Sanrenmu knives are supposed to be a whole different ball of wax. From what I hear, they make the knives for Spyderco and Spyderco stamps their name on them and sells them.

There have been thousands of fake Delica's made over the past 15 years by many companies. In my opinion, they are all POS, trying to capture your dollar by pretending to be something they were not. You bit, didn't you?

SanRenMu makes some good quality pieces. There were still areas where we had to teach them and raise their quality. We are always in the process of raising the bar for our vendors.

At Spyderco, we design our own knives, patterns, materials and tolerances. We control the designs, tolerances, materials and we oversee manufacture and we do our own QC. We don't "just stamp our name on something and just sell it". In my opinion, that is an ignorant and even insulting statement.

I guess my question is, at what point is it a "fake"? I know it is complicated but would a non-logo Persistance made by the same company in China that makes them for Spyderco be a fake?

A "fake" is an imitation. Whether it is illegal or not is dependent on established legal intellectual property. A "fake" can be an immoral or unethical "fake" depending on on your values.

A non-logo Persistance made by a Spyderco vendor would be, by our standards, an unethical copy. It would also be an illegal copy because of our trademark and patent laws.

I'll get to more of the comments tomorrow.

sal

[KardinalSyn]

This was in the auction section of eBay today.

[Heespharm]

Has anybody used or own a sanrenmu 710? I own one and It is no where near the quality fit or finish of a sebenza... It may have the same shape but it the end it feels like crap and looks even worse...

I'm not concerned with copies in the end it looks like a cheap gas station knife that is sold by the cash register

[Bluntrauma]

Has anybody used or own a sanrenmu 710? I own one and It is no where near the quality fit or finish of a sebenza... It may have the same shape but it the end it feels like crap and looks even worse...

I'm not concerned with copies in the end it looks like a cheap gas station knife that is sold by the cash register

I posted one on the last page. Yes, I have used it. Comparing it to a Sebenza other than the obvious look alike qualities is like comparing pop guns to bazooka's.

It is very sharp, centered well, very thin in the tip and feels like a knife I would not want to have to depend on. It feels like a cheap knife but overall felt better than I would have thought.

That is all a wash considering that it a total theft of a design. Patents aside, they took someone's design and copied it, albeit visually, not literally.

Like I had said earlier, this knife was gifted to me. I would not have spent one thin dime on a knife like this. Unlike you (no offense) I am deeply concerned with "copies."

Unfortunately I think it is hard for American Company's to go after these Chinese knives due to the laws in other Countries. I think it is shameless and a bigger concern is folks who don't know knives like knife nuts do.

They buy these POS knock offs or fakes a lot of times thinking they are either getting an authentic Spyderco or not realizing that just because they may look the same, they are not.

Then they end up disillusioned, unhappy or worse... hurt themselves on this knife and blame Spyderco. I would love to know how many knives Spyderco see's a year for warranty work that turns out to not even be a Spyderco.

These knives put a stain on the entire knife industry and are an embarrassment, again just my personal opinion.

[sal]

I forgot about that.

Does anyone know for sure if this is the same company that makes knives for Spyderco? It would be a real slap in the face to Spyderco if the Chinese company they contracted with to make there knives started selling them on there own and cut out the middle man. A slap in the face but not surprising.

Yes, I know who makes knives for Spyderco. Yes, we have caught some "selling out the back door" (byrd) , but stopped it.

China doesn't care about copyrights or trademarks, they have proven that in spades. I guess the lesson is, chickens always come home to roost.

China does have a different value system with regards to patents and trademarks. Some are learning and changing, some don't care.
We have patents and trademarks in China and we've raided a few companies, but it's challenging. Educating our customers helps, but the long term effect can be devastating if not curbed.

sal

[sal]

All that being said, I have a hard time feeling sorry for companies that Go to China for cheap labor and then complain that China took their ideas and ran with it.

Companies go to China to make products because Americans demand cheaper prices.

Spyderco willingly took jobs from Americans and moved them to China to avoid paying them a good wage.

That's not true. Spyderco has never moved a USA made design to China.

Now China is expanding their knife production and improving quality to the point it will not need American companies anymore. Sanrenmu could produce their own versions of the budget Spydercos for half the price and equal quality by simply cutting out the middle man.

SanRenMu has their own line of knives. There are many Americans (and Europeans) that purchase their products. It would not serve their relationship with Spyderco to reproduce our designs and sell them as their own.

Why pay Spyderco $40 for a Tenacious when Sanrenmu is probably making and selling them for less than $5.00? Spyderco is making a killing by pimping out their name and allowing China to do all the work.

SanRenMu cannot make and sell our knives for $5.00 with the steels we use. To say that Spyderco is "making a killing" is ignorant. You need to learn more about economics. Making statements like that makes you appear very young.

I haven't bought one of the Sanrenmu knives yet but something about the Chinese Spyderco doesn't sit well with me. I know full well that every Chinese Spyderco I buy is hurting American workers and helping make China stronger. I also know if I bought it directly from China, they wouldn't charge $40 for it, more like $10.

Buying American is certainly better, but most Americans won't pay for American goods. Spyderco makes a fair profit on our Chinese made models. That profit goes to American workers and to build our American factory. I don't think you can buy a Spyderco directly from China.

It is a gray area and sticky situation. I am not sure what to think really. I look for the best bang for the buck like everyone but I would gladly pay a little extra to keep jobs in the US and help the economy.

Americans looking for the best bang for the buck is how China has taken much of our manufacturing. With the exchange rate the way it is, "Paying a little extra" is unrealistic, you have to pay 5 times as much all things being equal. One Yuan is 20 cents.

The high end American knives are still the best in the world. I have a Benchmade 921s that I have carried every day at work for 5 years. There are not too many knives that could have withstood the abuse and use I put it through and at the same time been such an effective tool. It was expensive when new but if you pro rate the price and amount of use, it is probably one of the best values I have ever had. When I need a good knife or tool, I spend the money needed to get something good. I don't mess around with bargain hunting when I need it for work or to depend on. Most of my knives are Benchmades and Spydercos but there is a place for bargain knives.

Amercan made knives are generally a higher quality in materials and craftsmanship.

sal

[sal]

First, take it down a notch tough guy. Second, I haven't bought any of the Chinese copies yet, I am just musing on what is a fake verses what is a knife that may be inspired buy another design. It is all gray area and life is full of gray areas. Only a simple mind sees everything in black and white.

Your "musing" is being presented in an offensive and ignorant manner. Perhaps the "simple mind" is the one that cannot distinguish the black and white from the gray?

If you can show me the line where a knife ceases to be inspired by another and starts becoming a copy, I would love to hear it. It doesn't exist. Take the Sanrenmu 710 for example, it is clearly inspired by the small Sebenza but they haven't used any trademarks or try to pass it off as a Sebenza. Is it a "fake" Sebenza? No way. Nobody would be fooled into thinking they were buying a real Sebenza with a Sanrenmu 710. That being said, the 710 looks more like a Sebenza to me than some of the "fake" Spydercos that simply use the hole and borrow lightly from some of the design elements of the general line like that Navy knife that looks like a mix between a G-10 Cara-Cara, a Military, an Endura and a Police. It is clearly not trying to copy any one of those knives but it does use the Spyderco hole. They are the company that makes knives for Spyderco in China so they may be allowed to use the hole, I am not sure.

I cannot speak for CRK. Navy is not a manufcturer. Just a knock off company putting their own name on copies. No one in China is permitted to use our trademarks.

If Spyderco wants to go after companies that infringe on their patents, they can start in their own back yard with the company they hired to make their knives for them in China.

Spyderco spends a great deal of time and money to raid and fight knock off's in China. The companies that we hire are not at issue.

My guess is they don't want to risk losing the cheap labor so they are forced to shut up and leave Sanrenmu to do what it wants. If Spyderco makes a stink about it, they would have to find another source of cheap labor that can still produce the quality that Sanrenmu is known for. It may not be easy so maybe it pays to just let Sanrenmu do what they want as long as they are not directly competing with Spyderco's sales. We all know how appeasement ends up thanks to WWII.

Your "guess" in not accurate and is quite insulting. We do not seek "cheap labor". Most of what you own is made in China (assuming you own anything).

sal

[Donut]

People don't notice that by wanting to pay less for everything, it will cost them and their neighbors good jobs.

[Azwaiian]

People don't notice that by wanting to pay less for everything, it will cost them and their neighbors good jobs.

Well said...

[The Deacon]

People don't notice that by wanting to pay less for everything, it will cost them and their neighbors good jobs.

True, but that did not start with Chinese goods. It goes back to a few years after WWII when we rebuilt the production capacity of our former enemies. It started with low quality but inexpensive toys and cameras imported from Japan, followed by decent quality Japanese cameras and electronics that were cheaper than American brands. Next were scooters, motorcycles, and compact cars from Japan, Germany, and Italy all of which were cheaper, and some considerably more reliable, than existing US brands.

The dilemma for American companies, as AG Russell noted, is which of the two available options will cost MORE American jobs, to "go with the flow" and outsource at least some production to China and remain solvent, or to not do so and risk being priced out of the market.