Fake Poliwog III

[Pinetreebbs]

Another version of the Poliwog knockoff on eBay. Link Here

Ships from Hong Kong, hummm :mad:

[TBob]

An obvious cheap knock off - the core "talent" of the PRC. At least they didn't call it a Spyderco.

[The Deacon]

Unless Spyderco can get eBay to cooperate, there's little that can be done about the knockoffs being sold by Chinese sellers. OTOH, while I'm sure it's total garbage, the pivot they use on those looks really good. :D

[Pinetreebbs]

Another seller, same knife?

eBay Crap

[TBob]

I'm sure that they made a boat load of them w/slave labor.

However, the quoted blade steel on this on is different. The other one was 7Cr17, not 440. OTOH, I don't doubt either or both is lying about the cheap thing. The blade is probably made from recycled WWII or Korean War-vintage C-Rat cans.

[The Deacon]

Call me naive, but I doubt there's any "slave labor" involved. Granted, I'd be a hypocrite for complaining if there was. Spent the last 15 years of my working life in a cubicle made, and furnished with stuff made, right here in New York by guys earning thirty-five cents an hour. :eek: :D

[TBob]

I'm sure that Sal and Eric insist on certain minimum labor as well as quality standards from the company with which they do business in the PRC. That's the exception rather than the rule.

Life for most factory workers like those who make the knock-offs is almost totally controlled by their employer and corrupt local officials. Here are a few random facts: The "minimum wage", if you can collect it (which many outside the major cities cannot), today varies from ~$40 - $164/month depending on location. There are no safety standards. The highest minimum wage that I quoted is for Shanghai. Sound like a relatively good deal? A 60 sq ft apartment in a run-down building in Shanghai costs around $300/month. Rural workers stream into Shanghai because they consider it a paradise compared to the rest of the country. There have been and continue to be many riots in parts of the PRC over corruption and abysmal work conditions which you never see reported in the western media.

EDIT: After rereading this comment, it sounds harsher than I intended. So, I deleted the last line that didn't add anything. I'm not trying to start a flame war, just wanted to toss in some facts to clear the air. I apologize if I offended you with the original version.

[SolidState]

that's the difference between "free trade" and "fair trade." Sadly, my generation is paying for the baby boomers moving all production facilities to a communist country that has no compunction about controlling currency such that they can buy and lend the carpet out from under us. It is not illegal in China to do this type of thing, and we have few to no trade restrictions against China. You'd think we'd treat PRC like Cuba, but instead we gave them ALL of our tech manufacture, nearly all of our mining business, and all miscellaneous manufacture. We're educating more of their PhD's than our own in most science and engineering fields. Where do we think this is going? I firmly believe that this phenomenon is a greater threat to our national security than any Taliban will ever be. We cannot survive as a nation with nothing but a service economy.

Reverse gun-boat diplomacy really is a beautiful thing. My advice to my generation is: "Xueshi hanyu yinwei women de meiguo zuzong cao women."

[TBob]

My advice to my generation is: "Xueshi hanyu yinwei women de meiguo zuzong cao women."

...and several butchers' aprons.

[SolidState]

...and several butchers' aprons.

Don't I know it!

[dj moonbat]

The problem isn't with Chinese manufacturing per se -- after all, even a couple genuine Spydies are made there. Although China's working conditions are not exactly the envy of the free world, you'd probably be hard-pressed to find Chinese people who want to go back to the days before they made all our stuff for us.

No, the problem is that China has a thriving market in counterfeit/pirated goods, which has more to do with its very, very shabby approach to intellectual property.

[The Deacon]

The problem isn't with Chinese manufacturing per se -- after all, even a couple genuine Spydies are made there. Although China's working conditions are not exactly the envy of the free world, you'd probably be hard-pressed to find Chinese people who want to go back to the days before they made all our stuff for us.

No, the problem is that China has a thriving market in counterfeit/pirated goods, which has more to do with its very, very shabby approach to intellectual property.

It goes beyond that, it's a fundamental difference between Western and Eastern traditions and legal philosophies. Few "legal" concepts are truly universal and abstract ones like intellectual property are often difficult to explain, and justify, to those whose tradition does not include them. It's at a level very similar to the difference between the way Native Americans viewed land and the European concept of private property.

While many ideas originated in China, and to a lesser extent Japan, there never was the same premium placed on innovation as here in the West. If anything, the opposite was true, at least until recently. Designs that worked were copied, often for centuries. Someone going "against the flow" and producing a non-traditional knife or sword would have met with skepticism, at the very least.

For those reasons, the makers there don't feel what they are doing is wrong anymore than many here feel owing and carrying knives that are, at least technically, illegal is wrong.

[dj moonbat]

. . .the makers there don't feel what they are doing is wrong anymore than many here feel owing and carrying knives that are, at least technically, illegal is wrong.

It really doesn't matter whether counterfeiting seems right or wrong to them. Frankly, I don't think rigid intellectual property regimes are socially useful, either. The more products out there, the more likely it is that a consumer can find a good deal.

My point was that, to the extent that we regret the existence of obvious knock-offs, obviously made in China, it's not the existence of sweatshops that makes it happen -- it's the lack of western norms of trademark/patent protection.

[ChrisR]

I'm sure that if someone invented something in China they'd be very protective of their IPR ... but they choose to rip-off designs created by foreign designers because it is economically viable. The PRC clearly choose to turn a blind eye because they realize that it makes them money ... in the same way that they hold the value of their currency down to encourage people to manufacture there ... it's all a game and they're doing very nicely at it.

IPR isn't just a way for manufacturers to get rich ... the concept was created to recognize that the designer and inventor of a new product has had to spend usually large amounts of their own money in the process. The rights they get from patents allows them to reimburse that outlay before other companies get a chance to get into the market. If there was no IPR then there would be no economic reason to invent anything of value and we'd all be sitting around using old-fashioned tat, rather than pushing the boundaries and coming up with new products/designs.

[The General]

I am strongly against the rip off knives China make. Lets get that clear right now.

I am very much in favour of Spyderco making a range of budget knives IN China as its playing the game and making money for Spyderco.

I know many Americans get very upset if knives or anything else is not made in the good old US of A but the economic realities are just that. Real.

Chinese people are for the most part totally ignorant of what they are making. They have no innovation or desire to improve or design. They just see a chance to make something and sell it at a good mark up, for them.

Look at the Gunting clones, blatantly easy to spot as they could not clone the compression lock cheaply. However, this meant someone had to modify the design so it was not a 100% clone. Not that this makes it right, but they actually made something new, if basically a copy.

The same thing happens in airsoft. A company will spend a lot on development and charge say $400 for an airsoft gun. Then people will post on the forums "great design, looks cool, but its too much money, I can't wait for the Chinese to clone it" and this happens an awful lot.

Its not quite the same dynamic with clones of Spyderco knives. No one who has any genuine interest in Spyderco would seriously be fooled by these clone rip offs. I would also challenge anyone to seriously trust a knife like these clone rip offs. Give me a Byrd folder any day.

Then we have the following situation. Someone that knows something is a fake but can't afford the real deal. Mate of mine fancied an EOD Gerber, but was horrified that they went for £90. So he bought a clone from a retailer. He's chuffed to bits with it. I sharpened it for him (wont hold an edge for long, trust me, its butter knife steel) the tool is flimsy and poorly made, the pouch fell to bits and all in all its worth the £8 he paid for it. Barely.

Its pointless me showing him my Gerber 600 or any of my other multitools. He can't afford the price of a genuine one so he does not want to see them.

There endeth the argument. As long as people are unable or unwilling to buy the real thing, the fakes will thrive and ignorance will abound.

Best Spyderco can do is try to educate and keep an affordable range of knives on the market. Especially the Byrd line. Fact is, many more people thanks to this recession cannot afford Spyderco knives.

Time was, for me at least that Spyderco knives were my beaters. If I broke one or messed one up, no big deal, I would buy a replacement. Not any more. Now I view my Spyderco knives differently. I still use them but I would rather use a Byrd or something else for abuse. Quite simply, almost all of the Spyderco range is beyond my means now. I can't be the only one. I am not saying that to be critical of Spyderco, everything has gone up in price and a lot of people have lost their jobs, myself included. It is however an inescapable fact.