Ancestry?

[TomAiello]

One thing I've noticed about many of the younger generation of Asian-Americans whose parents immigrated here MUCH more recently, many are rigidly judgmental about Asian-Americans whose friends aren't also mostly Asian, judging them as 'sellouts' and trying to pass as white. Which is a new type of ignorance. If they ever bothered to study history, more specifically of the original first 3 generations of Japanese-Americans in this country, they might see the reason why a high percentage of us didn't hang out with many others of our ethnic background. At least where I was, there simply weren't that many.

If you read through some of the history you can see that some of those tensions had already started in the 1930s and 1940s with the Issei/Nissei distinction. I had a long discussion about it with my kids over Memorial Day (when we visited Minidoka).

[The Mastiff]

To the best of my knowledge all 4 grandparents were immigrants to the US . That had to have been the early 1900's up to 1915 or so at the latest. All the children of my parents generation were born here and show up in the census on the early 1920's.

One was from Austria Hungarian empire ( area now Czech Republic), one Lithuania's city of Vilnius. The two from my maternal side were Italy/Sicily.

[James Y]

One thing I've noticed about many of the younger generation of Asian-Americans whose parents immigrated here MUCH more recently, many are rigidly judgmental about Asian-Americans whose friends aren't also mostly Asian, judging them as 'sellouts' and trying to pass as white. Which is a new type of ignorance. If they ever bothered to study history, more specifically of the original first 3 generations of Japanese-Americans in this country, they might see the reason why a high percentage of us didn't hang out with many others of our ethnic background. At least where I was, there simply weren't that many.

If you read through some of the history you can see that some of those tensions had already started in the 1930s and 1940s with the Issei/Nissei distinction. I had a long discussion about it with my kids over Memorial Day (when we visited Minidoka).

Thanks for sharing. Yes, that is true. Luckily, my grandparents on both sides didn't seem to care much about that, not even my paternal grandpa, who was a scary person. I think he had lots of other stressors throughout his life to care much about that. I also think he probably disliked everyone equally.

I should think that the younger generations now would have a little more insight, since much more information is readily available now than ever before in history. As I mentioned, there are some who 'get it', but there are many who don't.

Of course, I must identify as what I am; if I just say 'American,' people will say, "Yeah, but where are you really from?" I think we become our own worst enemies when we use our own ethnicity to put limits on ourselves; when we start judging OURSELVES or others we deem to be 'like us' by trying to fit ourselves (and them) into narrow little categories of who or what we can and "can't" be in life.

Jim

[James Y]

To the best of my knowledge all 4 grandparents were immigrants to the US . That had to have been the early 1900's up to 1915 or so at the latest. All the children of my parents generation were born here and show up in the census on the early 1920's.

One was from Austria Hungarian empire ( area now Czech Republic), one Lithuania's city of Vilnius. The two from my maternal side were Italy/Sicily.

Thanks for sharing that, Joe.

Jim

[TomAiello]

Of course, I must identify as what I am; if I just say 'American,' people will say, "Yeah, but where are you really from?" I think we become our own worst enemies when we use our own ethnicity to put limits on ourselves; when we start judging OURSELVES or others we deem to be 'like us' by trying to fit ourselves (and them) into narrow little categories of who or what we can and "can't" be in life.

That's especially true in the US. If you look into the ancestry of many Americans you find stories like mine--four different grandparents from four different continents, three of them immigrants to the US. It's pretty hard to define an ancestral 'where' from that. One of my friends (descended of German immigrants, whose wife has two immigrant parents--one from Taiwan and one from China) describes this as 'love really will conquer all' because in the end, people are going to interbreed such that differentiating an ethnically based 'where are you from' will be impossible.

Here's a quote you might appreciate:

All residents of this nation are kin in some way by blood or culture to a foreign land. Yet they are primarily and necessarily a part of the new and distinct civilization of the United States. They must accordingly be treated at all times as the heirs of the American experiment...

William Francis Murphy

Source: https://www.law.cornell.edu/supremecourt/text/323/214

[Doc Dan]

Some of my friends of Chinese ancestry do not speak a word of Chinese and do not identify as such. They are called "Bananas" by other Chinese. Yellow on the outside, white on the inside. Why isn't the world past this sort of stuff?

[James Y]

Of course, I must identify as what I am; if I just say 'American,' people will say, "Yeah, but where are you really from?" I think we become our own worst enemies when we use our own ethnicity to put limits on ourselves; when we start judging OURSELVES or others we deem to be 'like us' by trying to fit ourselves (and them) into narrow little categories of who or what we can and "can't" be in life.

That's especially true in the US. If you look into the ancestry of many Americans you find stories like mine--four different grandparents from four different continents, three of them immigrants to the US. It's pretty hard to define an ancestral 'where' from that. One of my friends (descended of German immigrants, whose wife has two immigrant parents--one from Taiwan and one from China) describes this as 'love really will conquer all' because in the end, people are going to interbreed such that differentiating an ethnically based 'where are you from' will be impossible.

Here's a quote you might appreciate:

All residents of this nation are kin in some way by blood or culture to a foreign land. Yet they are primarily and necessarily a part of the new and distinct civilization of the United States. They must accordingly be treated at all times as the heirs of the American experiment...

William Francis Murphy

Source: https://www.law.cornell.edu/supremecourt/text/323/214

Thanks, Tom.

Jim

[kennethsime]

My father is an amateur genealogist. He's documented our family tree back quite a bit, and really done his research. I've confirmed the big lines on my own, but he's devoted a lot more time and energy to it. We are, broadly, Northern + Western European.

My grandmother, his mother, lived in a retirement community from about age 60-90. In that time, quite a few of her friends confided in her. Enough of them said something akin to: "well, the third one looked enough like Tom that I never told him, but that milkman sure knew how to work it," that she thinks it's all hooey.

Still, I think ancestry is fun stuff. The DNA tests & ethnicity estimates are really cool, and are helping to engage a new, younger generation with their family histories.

One fun thing is that siblings can have similar, but different DNA. Our family is particularly proud of our Scottish ancestry, and according to Ancestry, I'm about 20% more Scottish than my sister (she happen to inherit a bit more English). Now, every Thanksgiving, I get to remind her that I got the best genes. ;-)

[James Y]

Some of my friends of Chinese ancestry do not speak a word of Chinese and do not identify as such. They are called "Bananas" by other Chinese. Yellow on the outside, white on the inside. Why isn't the world past this sort of stuff?

Doc

Funny thing: I understand only a tiny bit of Japanese, but at one time I was fluent in Mandarin (living in Taiwan). I can still understand a lot of it, speak it a little less well nowadays, and can still read some Chinese (to a lesser degree than before, due to lack of opportunities to stay in practice here).

When Americans learn that I went to Taiwan, they inevitably say, "Why did you go there? You should have gone to Japan." But the funny thing is, NOT ONE person I met or knew in Taiwan said I shouldn't be there and should've gone to Japan instead.

I didn't go to Japan because it wasn't what was "calling to me." And I adjusted to living in Taiwan very well.

Telling me I shouldn't have gone to Taiwan because my ancestry is Japanese would be like telling an American of Scotch-Irish-English descent that he/she shouldn't visit Italy, and should only visit the UK. Or telling someone named DaSilva that he or she should only visit Portugal or Brazil, and nowhere else. It's a dumb way of thinking. But in reality, nobody ever puts limitations like that on people of European ancestry, only on those of Asian ancestry.

That's why I've never put limitations on myself due to my ancestry, and never allowed myself to be defined by others and put into a little box that other people think i should conform to. One can be proud of one's ancestry without allowing it to become a ball and chain. Because in the end, we're all INDIVIDUALS, or should be.

A little-known fact outside of Taiwan: I met a few elderly Taiwanese who spoke fluent Japanese, in addition to the Taiwan Hokkien/Taiwanese dialect, but barely spoke any Mandarin, which is Taiwan's official language/dialect. That was a holdover from when Taiwan was a Japanese colony.

Jim

[ChrisinHove]

Sadly, although for many it is a matter of interest in family history, I think if people need to search for an identity outside of themselves or their current circumstances, then “ancestry” becomes another means of differentiation. The irony is that a little bit of research often shows less differentiation than they suppose.

[James Y]

Sadly, although for many it is a matter of interest in family history, I think if people need to search for an identity outside of themselves or their current circumstances, then “ancestry” becomes another means of differentiation. The irony is that a little bit of research often shows less differentiation than they suppose.

Chris,

IMO, our DNA and ancestry is a blueprint for our physical bodies; but who we truly are is a product of our environment, upbringing, and our own personal experiences and choices.

There are some people who try to use ancestry, or even only a desire to be of a certain ancestry, to appear or feel more special about themselves and to others than they feel right now. When in reality, what really matters is WHO you truly are. If you are inherently unhappy with who you are on the inside, then finding out something on a DNA test is not going to change that.

When I say "you," I don't mean YOU, Chris, but a general "you," meaning anyone.

Jim

[James Y]

My father is an amateur genealogist. He's documented our family tree back quite a bit, and really done his research. I've confirmed the big lines on my own, but he's devoted a lot more time and energy to it. We are, broadly, Northern + Western European.

My grandmother, his mother, lived in a retirement community from about age 60-90. In that time, quite a few of her friends confided in her. Enough of them said something akin to: "well, the third one looked enough like Tom that I never told him, but that milkman sure knew how to work it," that she thinks it's all hooey.

Still, I think ancestry is fun stuff. The DNA tests & ethnicity estimates are really cool, and are helping to engage a new, younger generation with their family histories.

One fun thing is that siblings can have similar, but different DNA. Our family is particularly proud of our Scottish ancestry, and according to Ancestry, I'm about 20% more Scottish than my sister (she happen to inherit a bit more English). Now, every Thanksgiving, I get to remind her that I got the best genes. ;-)

Hi, Kenneth. Sorry, I'd missed your post earlier. Thanks for sharing!

It's interesting how percentages of different ancestry/DNA distribution varies among siblings.

Jim

[RustyIron]

I think if people need to search for an identity outside of themselves or their current circumstances, then “ancestry” becomes another means of differentiation.

Thank you, sir. I’ve started to reply to this thread a couple times, and deleted it each time. Personally, I don’t derive any sense of identity from anything that others did, or anything that happened before the day I was born. My feelings of pride or shame stem from the things I’ve done.

My wife enjoys researching stuff like that. One day she traced it back to Charlemagne. Yes, THAT Charlemagne. I told her, “**** yeah! Book us a flight! First class! Let’s go claim our rightful spot in the castle!!!” But seriously, it’s no surprise she’s a descendent of Charlemagne. The dude was a conqueror. He raped and pillaged across the lands of his enemies, and his loyal groupies were clamoring to change the royal sheets every night. Probably half the people in Europe today are descended from some royal ruler or another. And here I sit, married to a princess of the Francs, surrounded by chickens and dogs, forced to pour my own glass of lemon water. Sigh.

[TomAiello]

Thank you, sir. I’ve started to reply to this thread a couple times, and deleted it each time. Personally, I don’t derive any sense of identity from anything that others did, or anything that happened before the day I was born. My feelings of pride or shame stem from the things I’ve done.

On a personal level, I agree with you, but it's still kind of fun to research. I have photos of my kids and I standing in front of street signs carrying our last name in both Sicily (where the ancestors we got our name from lived for the past thousand or more years) and Pittsburgh, California (where they settled when they moved the US). It doesn't really add to my sense of identity or accomplishment, but it's a fun thing regardless.



I think there's also some value in researching your ancestors because it may make you more sympathetic to others who's circumstances you don't share, but who's circumstances might be similar to those of your ancestors. As an example, knowing that your great grandfather moved to the US as an unaccompanied (and illiterate) minor and worked on fishing boats at age 11 to earn a living might make you more sympathetic to someone in similar circumstances today. Some people won't need a personal connection for that kind of thing, but for some people it's helpful in gaining a 'walk a mile in their shoes' perspective.

[MacLaren]

Thank you, sir. I’ve started to reply to this thread a couple times, and deleted it each time. Personally, I don’t derive any sense of identity from anything that others did, or anything that happened before the day I was born. My feelings of pride or shame stem from the things I’ve done.

On a personal level, I agree with you, but it's still kind of fun to research. I have photos of my kids and I standing in front of street signs carrying our last name in both Sicily (where the ancestors we got our name from lived for the past thousand or more years) and Pittsburgh, California (where they settled when they moved the US). It doesn't really add to my sense of identity or accomplishment, but it's a fun thing regardless.



I think there's also some value in researching your ancestors because it may make you more sympathetic to others who's circumstances you don't share, but who's circumstances might be similar to those of your ancestors. As an example, knowing that your great grandfather moved to the US as an unaccompanied (and illiterate) minor and worked on fishing boats at age 11 to earn a living might make you more sympathetic to someone in similar circumstances today. Some people won't need a personal connection for that kind of thing, but for some people it's helpful in gaining a 'walk a mile in their shoes' perspective.

Man, would I LOVE to see Italy & Sicily!
Nice pic, Tom.

[James Y]

Tom,

I totally get the 'walk a mile in their shoes' thing. I've long wondered how my paternal grandpa was able to survive the way he did back then, WHERE he did, which was still The Wild West, especially considering where he was from. Again, maybe my dad knew more, but at the time I never cared to ask more about it. The obstacles my grandpa faced, and the odds against him, must have been staggering. It helps me to understand why he became the way he was. Looking at it from an objective POV, I'm grateful to him for the courage it took and the sacrifices he made.

Jim

[shunsui]

...
But seriously, it’s no surprise she’s a descendent of Charlemagne. The dude was a conqueror. He raped and pillaged across the lands of his enemies, and his loyal groupies were clamoring to change the royal sheets every night. Probably half the people in Europe today are descended from some royal ruler or another. ...

LOL Yeah, that's about it.

My uncle used to claim he was descended from Irish kings. We all pretty much ignored him, but there's always that kernal of truth in folklore.

Lot of interesting stuff here:

https://www.theguardian.com/whats-in-yo ... o-consider

[TomAiello]

Here's another ancestry document we collected a few years back. It's the registry of the ship on which my great grandfather arrived in the US (from Sicily). My ancestor, Antonio Aiello, age 12, is on line 76.

I have a ton of these--things like handwritten records from a fishing village in Italy, baptismal certificates from churches in California, scans of handwritten records from the Philippine national archives...tons of cool historical records related to my ancestry.

[RustyIron]

As an example, knowing that your great grandfather moved to the US as an unaccompanied (and illiterate) minor and worked on fishing boats at age 11

Interesting. One wonders how bad it was in our ancestors' native lands to get them to leave their homes, their friends, their families, to jump on a boat for a uncertain futures as the lowest caste members in a foreign society. I suppose it's no different than it is today when people leave everything behind to come here.

My great grandfather came here from Italy working in the kitchen on a passenger ship. He got to New York, bolted, and ended up in Los Angeles. He got a job working in the kitchen at the Hotel Alexandria. It was quite posh at the time. It deteriorated into a Skid Row Flophouse by the 70's, and was eventually renovated into apartments. I've driven past plenty of times on my way to work in the upper-scale buildings of DTLA. He eventually ended up in the middle of the state, where he sold fruits and vegetables out of the back of a truck.

A few years ago I came across a letter written by my great grandmother. The address was an apartment building in LA, in what is now Koreatown. I had driven past, but made it a point to go and check out the building. It was an old building, to be sure. Now it was a skeevy old building in a seedy neighborhood. I wondered to myself what my great grandmother did there, how she earned a living, and what it was like back then.

I've been fortunate to visit a lot of buildings, many very old. I'm always curious about who lived there, who worked there, who built the building, and what they were like. I like to think that aside from situational and cultural differences, they were pretty much like you and me... except not as good looking as us, and they didn't have cool knives.

[TomAiello]

Interesting. One wonders how bad it was in our ancestors' native lands to get them to leave their homes, their friends, their families, to jump on a boat for a uncertain futures as the lowest caste members in a foreign society.

In the case of the Sicilian village that my ancestors came from, it was pretty bad. Unemployment was around 25%, and less than half of the children survived to adulthood. In the period during which my family came to the US (roughly 1885-1910) something like 40% of the village moved to the US (all to the same fishing town in California). My great grandfather told my dad something along the lines of 'in Italy, we had to fish every day and we were still starving--in California we fished 20 days of the month, and saved money to buy our own boats.' That all ended in the 50s when California banned fishing where they lived (SF East Bay), but by then most of the next generation was able to move forward and find other work. There were only two fisherman of the 6 boys in that first US generation, which was also the first generation with anyone (just one child) who went to college). The following generation had no fisherman at all, and several more college graduates. I'm sure my (illiterate his whole life) great grandfather found it strange to see so many of his grandchildren going to college before he died. We have basically no remaining relatives back in the old village (which I have visited with my kids).

The Phillipino side of my family actually had it pretty good in Manila. They were well educated and held various local political offices. My grandmother (with my mom and my uncle) were pretty much the only ones who moved to the USA. The rest of that side of the family is still in the Phillipines today.