In Defense of Pre Judgment

[Bolster]

Really frustrated with a thread in the main section, "Where does the steel come from?" Someone jumped into the thread to virtue signal, and then issues of nationalism and prejudice quickly bubbled up.

I wanted to post in that thread, but figured that if I did, then *I* was being OT in a thread that was struggling to stay on topic, so decided to post here instead.

[Bolster now mounts his soap box...]

Let's review what prejudice actually, denotatively, is. It's pre-judgment. Of anything. It means relying on past knowledge and impressions to react to something similar or new. It's a function of learning. It means not starting from a state of ignorance time and time again. Any advanced knife design is an assembly of prejudices, from what has worked or not worked for the designer in the past.

I have many prejudices when it comes to owning knives, based on a lifetime of interest and a collection of a hundred knives. Here's a major prejudice of mine that you, dear reader, probably do not share: I don't like linerlocks. Why? (1) I don't like putting my fingers under the blade to close it. (2) A LL closed on my hand once and cut all four fingers. (3) I see them in cheap knives a lot.

Does that mean linerlocks are no good? Of course not! But I'm not going to apologize for avoiding them, I have four bloody good reasons--one for each finger cut. Maybe you don't, but I do, it's my prejudice and I own it! If you want to call me prejudiced for that, go ahead...that word has no negative connotation (or denotation!) to me. It just it means I learned a lesson based on experience, and probably am missing out on some really good knives that use them. (OK, OK, I broke down and purchased a Bradley Air, so I'm not 100% prejudiced here, just 99% prejudiced. No wait, I have two linerlock Queens. OK, 97% prejudiced.)

Much of the discussion on this forum is the discussion of prejudices, such as PE vs SE, S30V vs other PM steels, micarta vs G-10. We all learn from these discussions--there is no valid reason to import cancel-culture to limit the discussion! People are discussing what they have learned, what they like, what they avoid. Let's say that a person learns, from experience, that their Chinese knives (or whatever) are not as satisfying to own as their Russian knives (or whatever), so they don't buy Chinese and they do buy Russian. That's a prejudice. Does this require a raid from the woke police? No! People are free not to buy a knife from wherever they don't want to, and should not be publicly shamed if that's their choice!

[...steps down from soap box...but keeps soap box handy...]

[Manixguy@1994]

I agree Bolster , I try to stay far away from that type of conversation. I read it and think to myself not for me and move far away . Whatever anyone chooses to buy from wherever is really none of my business.If it makes them happy no matter from where is all that really matters. I really enjoy discussions here and value everyone’s opinion as long as it is not meant to belittle or demean anyone . Long live the Forum and all the great members ! MG2

[kennethsime]

Bolster, I get where you're coming from, but I think you're conflating Prejudice with either Belief or Opinion.

*Borrowing Bolster's Soapbox for a Minute*

If you google "prejudice definition," you'll find that Oxford defines Prejudice a few ways; twice as a noun, and twice as a verb.

noun
1. preconceived opinion that is not based on reason or actual experience.
ex:"prejudice against people from different backgrounds"

2. LAW harm or injury that results or may result from some action or judgment.
ex: "prejudice resulting from delay in the institution of the proceedings"

verb
1. give rise to prejudice in (someone); make biased.
ex: "the statement might prejudice the jury"

2. LAW cause harm to (a state of affairs).
ex: "delay is likely to prejudice the child's welfare"

I found this article from Colorado State University (conveniently local to Spyderco, hah!) which offers some useful advice for distinguishing between Fact, Opinion, Belief, and Prejudice.

In short:

- A fact is verifiable.
- An opinion is a judgment based on facts.
- A belief is a conviction based on cultural or personal faith, morality, or values.
- Prejudice is a half-baked opinion based on insufficient or unexamined evidence.

For example, it is a fact that my PM2 was made in Golden, Colorado. I believe that American-made knives are often among the best out there. My opinion is that my American-made knives have lasted longer and performed better than my Chinese-made knives. My prejudice is that although Chinese-made knives from Civivi, Artisan etc. seem to be relatively well-made, they are cheating somehow to achieve their price points and the knives will ultimately fail me when I need them most.

*Returns Bolster's Soapbox*

[sok]

delete my comment.

[Bolster]

The soap box appears to be returned in excellent condition, thanks much, you can borrow it at any time!

Let's go with Merriam Webster, first full definition entry: "Preconceived judgment or opinion." That's exactly what I'm talking about. Making a judgment about a particular object before actually encountering that object. (Oxford is dead wrong: prejudices are made from previous experience and reasoning--sufficiency is another matter.)

If humans were to reserve judgment on every freshly-encountered object, they'd not be engaging past experience--there'd be no learning. Caveman: "Oh, another sabre-toothed tiger. Hmm, maybe THIS one will make a good pet." That would be what a (dead) person with no functioning prejudices would say. Obviously prejudices come in different quality levels, high to low. I'd say that avoiding sabre tooth tigers is a high level prejudice. A good prejudice is one that works, that is accurate. And frankly, one of the main reasons I come to the forum is to hone my prejudices by reading others. I don't *have* to buy 3V to get an idea of how it will perform. The prejudice I've developed by reading tells me that 3V isn't a great match for my needs.

Unfortunately, the online dictionaries include lots of connotative definitions, such as M-W's 2nd full definition : "an adverse opinion or leaning formed without just grounds or before sufficient knowledge." That's more like a disparaging epithet, really. It's just something nasty to say about someone's judgement processes, with whom you disagree. We can always state that a person has insufficient grounds or insufficient knowledge, because there is no perfectly complete rationale, or perfect knowledge, available.

Getting back to knives, let's say I have owned three made by different makers in Ghanswania. All three have dulled rapidly. I have now developed a prejudice against Ghanswanian knives, and won't buy a fourth. I state as much on a forum. I'd claim there's absolutely nothing wrong with such a statement, and no need to cancel-culture it, or to endure a lecture on how I'm ethically bankrupt.

Returning soap box to the corner from whence it came.

[Edit: Since so many people have a prejudice against "prejudice", I changed the title of this thread so people don't have to run terrified away from the P word.]

[James Y]

I have preferences in my (in this case, Spyderco) knives. I prefer Golden and Seki models. I also really like the one Taichung model I own, a Caribbean.

I suppose I have a "prejudice" against non-stainless tool steels, even if they are highly thought of among other users. Also, I do NOT prefer super edge-holding steels, including ones that are stainless.

I prefer well-rounded stainless steels.

Jim

[JRinFL]

People love their Taiwanese made knives and tools and that alone should counter any arguments about prejudice and xenophobia.

[Naperville]

I have a small problem. I have a modern knife collection. It is made up of steels that are modern, and employ modern locks on the folders.

I don't pretend to have a collection encompassing all the steels while I do have many I stay away from collecting garbage. Yes I like the style of SOG fixed blades but they're almost all Aus8 so I refuse to buy them(the truth is I don't even like 1095). Maybe I'll break down and buy one someday, but they never make my top 25 list to buy. If they made one out of 4V as Sal and Spyderco have, I'd buy one!

Same goes with locks. I've had a frame lock close on my hand and cut me, so a compression or even better a back lock is my preferred lock. I buy and lightly test my frame locks, and I do not like liner locks, but yes, I have a few of each, but those locks keep me away from buying folders.

Call it prejudice or pre judgement but it makes me happy.

[Doc Dan]

That's okay. Anyone is entitled to be wrong if they disagree with me, but liner locks are awful.