Michael Janich Knuckslap less than lethal tool

[twinboysdad]

https://www.tacticalelements.com/michae ... knuckslap/

Discuss

[JRinFL]

Most jurisdictions will consider those to be brass knuckles and so banned. But, if a person needs something like this, it does seem a clever design.

[twinboysdad]

I particularly like the open hand strike enhancement. And that the inside palm portion can be loaded

[James Y]

I’m about 100% certain that would be illegal here in CA, and I’m betting a lot of other states, too. It looks like a great design, though.

I will mention that any tool like that can be lethal. I often read about self-defense tools that are advertised as ‘non-lethal’, but would probably get you into as much legal trouble as if you had used a knife on someone. Any strike enhancer has the potential of killing someone if you hit them right, or enough times. In many places, you’d probably be better off legally if you shot someone than use many (most?) of the purposely-designed SD devices that are advertised as non-lethal.

It looks like a great design, though. I might even have wanted one, if the law here viewed it as a legal SD option.

Jim

[Accutron]

I have one of the aluminum prototypes. They're pretty good as knucks. The palm striking portion does a good job at distributing force across your palm with closed hand strikes. Open hand stuff can get a bit sketchy. You have to be conscious about how much centrifugal force you're imparting, because they can achieve escape velocity. As far as the pain compliance stuff, you'll have to ask somebody who subscribes to such techniques. In a real altercation, I'd keep my fist closed and use them for what they're best at.

[Naperville]

In the USA, if you can get a CCW(Concealed Carry Weapon License) or live in a state that is open carry, you're set. Just get a snubnose .357 and in almost all cases will not be charged, tried, or convicted for self defense. I do not want to say that you can get away with homicide, but I've seen very few of those folks brought up on charges.

From what I know and understand all other weapons will get you a battery and ag assault criminal charge. THEN you cannot get a CCW!!!

Also, in Illinois, only CCW card holder can "carry" an auto knife.

None of this is logical, but here in Illinois, USA, that is the way that it is.

[twinboysdad]

In the USA, if you can get a CCW(Concealed Carry Weapon License) or live in a state that is open carry, you're set. Just get a snubnose .357 and in almost all cases will not be charged, tried, or convicted for self defense. I do not want to say that you can get away with homicide, but I've seen very few of those folks brought up on charges.

From what I know and understand all other weapons will get you a battery and ag assault criminal charge. THEN you cannot get a CCW!!!

Also, in Illinois, only CCW card holder can "carry" an auto knife.

None of this is logical, but here in Illinois, USA, that is the way that it is.

“Weight is good. Sign of reliability. If it does not work you can always hit him with it.”

[twinboysdad]

I’m about 100% certain that would be illegal here in CA, and I’m betting a lot of other states, too. It looks like a great design, though.

I will mention that any tool like that can be lethal. I often read about self-defense tools that are advertised as ‘non-lethal’, but would probably get you into as much legal trouble as if you had used a knife on someone. Any strike enhancer has the potential of killing someone if you hit them right, or enough times. In many places, you’d probably be better off legally if you shot someone than use many (most?) of the purposely-designed SD devices that are advertised as non-lethal.

It looks like a great design, though. I might even have wanted one, if the law here viewed it as a legal SD option.

Jim

I think it is a felony in CA to even own a sap or blackjack…

[Naperville]

In the USA, if you can get a CCW(Concealed Carry Weapon License) or live in a state that is open carry, you're set. Just get a snubnose .357 and in almost all cases will not be charged, tried, or convicted for self defense. I do not want to say that you can get away with homicide, but I've seen very few of those folks brought up on charges.

From what I know and understand all other weapons will get you a battery and ag assault criminal charge. THEN you cannot get a CCW!!!

Also, in Illinois, only CCW card holder can "carry" an auto knife.

None of this is logical, but here in Illinois, USA, that is the way that it is.

“Weight is good. Sign of reliability. If it does not work you can always hit him with it.”

I kept my feelings out of the previous post for the most part. What I want has nothing to do with the law.

But I will tell you and anyone reading, I like this device. And if I had the cash, I'd buy one immediately. Nonetheless, I would not leave the house with it. I already carry a knife, with dimensions such that if I used it in self defense they might try me for a felony. Would they do that? I'd rather not find out with my luck.

I believe in defending one self from harm. I believe that all weapons should be legal to anyone and no CCW license should be mandated. I do not believe in FOID cards. I believe in the Constitutional right to carry. I do not believe in background checks for firearms or most employment positions.

I do not believe in putting people in to bottles like they are a liquid that conforms to the glass shape and volume. Most people do what they think is right at the time in self defense.

[twinboysdad]

In the USA, if you can get a CCW(Concealed Carry Weapon License) or live in a state that is open carry, you're set. Just get a snubnose .357 and in almost all cases will not be charged, tried, or convicted for self defense. I do not want to say that you can get away with homicide, but I've seen very few of those folks brought up on charges.

From what I know and understand all other weapons will get you a battery and ag assault criminal charge. THEN you cannot get a CCW!!!

Also, in Illinois, only CCW card holder can "carry" an auto knife.

None of this is logical, but here in Illinois, USA, that is the way that it is.

“Weight is good. Sign of reliability. If it does not work you can always hit him with it.”

I kept my feelings out of the previous post for the most part. What I want has nothing to do with the law.

But I will tell you and anyone reading, I like this device. And if I had the cash, I'd buy one immediately. Nonetheless, I would not leave the house with it. I already carry a knife, with dimensions such that if I used it in self defense they might try me for a felony. Would they do that? I'd rather not find out with my luck.

I believe in defending one self from harm. I believe that all weapons should be legal to anyone and no CCW license should be mandated. I do not believe in FOID cards. I believe in the Constitutional right to carry. I do not believe in background checks for firearms or most employment positions.

I do not believe in putting people in to bottles like they are a liquid that conforms to the glass shape and volume. Most people do what they think is right at the time in self defense.

Sorry if my joke was poorly received, that’s a famous quote from Boris the Bullet Dodger in “Snatch”. I am a CCW holder and carry everywhere I can.

[Naperville]

Sorry if my joke was poorly received, that’s a famous quote from Boris the Bullet Dodger in “Snatch”. I am a CCW holder and carry everywhere I can.

No offense taken.

If I had a CCW, I carry everywhere too. In under 20 to 25ft, go hand to hand first, and if you can get control get out the rod.

I've studied some martial arts, so I carry a knife and I feel like my security is covered.

[Naperville]

Ahhhhh.....

Firearms and a Bow and Arrow are good for self defense, just no knives and brass knucks.

https://www.kmov.com/news/juvenile-cite ... 74c66.html

[Michael Janich]

Hey, All:

Thank you for your discussion of the KnuckSlap.

First and most importantly, it IS a form of brass or metal knuckles so the legalities of possessing or carrying one are complicated, stupid, and highly restrictive. I'm powerless to un-stupid our laws.

I'm also quite sure that "less-than-lethal" is a legal understatement.

My inspiration for designing the KnuckSlap was twofold. First, I've always been a collector of weapons and fascinated by the nuances of functional design. When knuckles became a fashion item and custom makers started charging hundreds of dollars for them, I was amazed at how poorly designed some of them were. When RECOIL magazine asked me to do an article on knucks and similar weapons a few years ago (https://www.recoilweb.com/brass-knuckle ... 20716.html), they sent me several samples of different modern styles of knucks. Simply put, most of them were ill conceived, poorly designed, and would cause more damage to your hand than the bad guy. In identifying what was wrong with them, I quantified the characteristics that a good knuck needs.

While shooting photos for that article with the generous help of some of my private MBC students, some of them asked about the tactics of using knucks and similar items. We started exploring some of the evil things you can do with them, but I emphasized that our approach to unarmed tactics (which focuses on hammerfists and palm strikes instead of punches) actually favors fist loads and palm saps more. I showed them how a good knuck design could also be used to slap, but that it wasn't ideally suited for it. That's when I had the epiphany. If people with no real understanding of functional knuck design could make them, I could do way better. So I did.

I consider knucks more of a martial arts/warfare weapon than a practical self-defense tool. From a collector's standpoint, they're also fascinating and fun. I am very grateful that AJ Singh and Tactical Elements took interest in the idea and made the commitment to make it real. As cool as it is, though, it's still not the best choice for practical, legally justifiable self-defense.

Thanks again for your interest and the great discussion.

Stay safe,

Mike

[twinboysdad]

What a cool background story. I love hearing when something doesn’t exist and someone creatively fills the gap

[bearfacedkiller]

I can legally edc a machete and I don’t need a permit to carry a handgun either openly or concealed. For some reason I am not legally allowed to carry some less than lethal options, brass knuckles included.

[twinboysdad]

I can legally edc a machete and I don’t need a permit to carry a handgun either openly or concealed. For some reason I am not legally allowed to carry some less than lethal options, brass knuckles included.

I have heard those of us too young to have been around during brass knuckles’ hay day, I am 47 by the way, that they absolutely disfigured people. Like altered the course of their life. I really like saps and blackjacks but realize the Scott Foster jack I gave my mother would absolutely be 50/50 lethal force with a tennis serve type blow. Depressed skull fracture. I have also listened to Uriah Faber’s YouTube story about fighting a group of thugs in Bali one of whom connected to his head more than once with knuckles. He had to get some staples out in IIRC. I think the sternum would be a great target with knuckles to begin with

[Naperville]

I can legally edc a machete and I don’t need a permit to carry a handgun either openly or concealed. For some reason I am not legally allowed to carry some less than lethal options, brass knuckles included.

I have heard those of us too young to have been around during brass knuckles’ hay day, I am 47 by the way, that they absolutely disfigured people. Like altered the course of their life. I really like saps and blackjacks but realize the Scott Foster jack I gave my mother would absolutely be 50/50 lethal force with a tennis serve type blow. Depressed skull fracture. I have also listened to Uriah Faber’s YouTube story about fighting a group of thugs in Bali one of whom connected to his head more than once with knuckles. He had to get some staples out in IIRC. I think the sternum would be a great target with knuckles to begin with

Been there; Done that.

My response will be the same as the first time a treacherous gang of people start to mess with me, I'll draw my knife. The biggest fear is that you do NOT in any way know if they will deliver a knockout blow to you at any second, since they are all grabbing, punching and kicking you. You have to be fast and constantly assess the situation.

If they are intent on harm and there are 3 to 10 of them, then protect yourself. It does not mean that anyone has to be slashed or stabbed, look aggressive and they may stop. If not, then press on. Don't give in and take the beating, they could kill you.

If necessary, take the misdemeanor for ag assault for pretending to be a scorpion! I did it and IDGAF. I'll be judged by God not a bunch of rubes.

[TomAiello]

I've generally seen 'less lethal' as the term, implying that it is less likely to be lethal than some other weapons--not that it is not a potentially lethal weapon. I've even seen things like the FN 303 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FN_303) described that way, because there is a chance they can kill, and the manufacturer doesn't want to describe them as non-lethal.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-lethal_weapon

"... weapons intended to be less likely to kill a living target than conventional weapons such as knives and firearms with live ammunition. It is often understood that unintended or incidental casualties are risked wherever force is applied, but non-lethal weapons try to minimise the risk of casualties (e.g. serious/permanent injuries or death) as much as possible."

I'm intrigued by this knuckslap, though. I haven't done any UC training in a long time. Maybe I should take it up again.

[TomAiello]

I can legally edc a machete and I don’t need a permit to carry a handgun either openly or concealed. For some reason I am not legally allowed to carry some less than lethal options, brass knuckles included.

Laws are very weird, and don't always (or even often) make sense.

In my state, brass knuckles (and saps) can be seen as an 'aggravation' but owning/carrying them is fine. They basically fall into the same legal category as most firearms and knives. Almost (but not quite) every time I get into one of these discussions, I look up our laws and am pleased to see that there is a small modicum of common sense still prevailing in our legislature.

[RustyIron]

it's still not the best choice for practical, legally justifiable self-defense.

Thanks, Mike, for the clarification.
Despite the appeal of shiny trinkets, I've never acquired any knuckles. I couldn't see how one could substantially add to what I might bring to the table, but I could envision the downsides, including injuring my hands. The chances of my training with one are slim, so I've just ogled the pictures of what other folks carry around in their pockets. After reading your comments, I can be more comfortable with the knowledge that I don't have one.