My 1st CRK

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James Y
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Re: My 1st CRK

#101

Post by James Y »

The Meat man wrote:
Sat Mar 20, 2021 8:52 pm
James Y wrote:
Sat Mar 20, 2021 8:30 pm
The Meat man wrote:
Sat Mar 20, 2021 8:16 pm
James Y wrote:
Sat Mar 20, 2021 7:59 pm
I have reprofiled/thinned out the ‘shoulders’ on one of my Sebenzas that came dull OOB, but have never been able to fully get rid of the “convexness” of the edge.

Jim
How do you mean? I didn't like the convex edge on mine, but a single sharpening did the trick for me. Now, it has perfectly flat V-bevels. Of course, I use a guided system, but still.

I don’t have a guided system other than a SM, so perhaps that’s why. It’s also possible that my sharpening Kung Fu isn’t there yet. :D

Jim
No doubt, it makes it easier! Can't claim to have much sharpening Kung Fu myself. ;)

Oh, behave! :D

You’re an excellent sharpener. I’m a functional sharpener at best.

Jim
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Re: My 1st CRK

#102

Post by The Meat man »

TkoK83Spy wrote:
Sat Mar 20, 2021 9:19 pm
Stop it Connor! We all know you get very nice edges on your knives... it's ok to brag a bit haha :)

I find the CRK clips to be quite alright as is. But, same thing with Spyderco and deep carry clips...we all prefer options!
James Y wrote:
Sun Mar 21, 2021 10:16 am
Oh, behave! :D

You’re an excellent sharpener. I’m a functional sharpener at best.

Jim
You're both very kind, and thanks for the compliments! :o But, I know I still have a lot to learn, and it's not always easy to get the kind of edges I like. Having a good, quality setup helps a lot.
- Connor

"What is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?"
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Re: My 1st CRK

#103

Post by JuPaul »

Sounds like I should just sharpen mine as usual and get rid of the convex edge. I think they're pretty darn slicey oob, so I'm excited to see how they do with a V grind.
- Julia

"Be excellent to each other." - Bill S. Preston, Esq.
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abbazaba
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Re: My 1st CRK

#104

Post by abbazaba »

Wondering why the MacLaren already sold the Zaan over one BF? Making a move on a Sebenza?
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TkoK83Spy
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Re: My 1st CRK

#105

Post by TkoK83Spy »

abbazaba wrote:
Tue Mar 23, 2021 8:49 am
Wondering why the MacLaren already sold the Zaan over one BF? Making a move on a Sebenza?
Yikes!! Bought a new clip for it and everything, didn't even give her a chance Paul!!
15 :bug-red 's in 10 different steels
1 - Bradford Guardian 3 / Vanadis 4E Wharnie
1 - Monterey Bay Knives Slayback Flipper / ZDP 189
1 - CRK Small Sebenza 31/Macassar Ebony Inlays
1 - CRK Large Inkosi Insingo/ Black Micarta Inlays
1 - CRK Small Sebenza 31 Insingo/Magnacut

-Rick
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Re: My 1st CRK

#106

Post by MacLaren »

abbazaba wrote:
Tue Mar 23, 2021 8:49 am
Wondering why the MacLaren already sold the Zaan over one BF? Making a move on a Sebenza?
Why don't ya just ask??
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Re: My 1st CRK

#107

Post by abbazaba »

MacLaren wrote:
Tue Mar 23, 2021 9:38 am
abbazaba wrote:
Tue Mar 23, 2021 8:49 am
Wondering why the MacLaren already sold the Zaan over one BF? Making a move on a Sebenza?
Why don't ya just ask??
I thought I was? I sincerely apologize if it didn't come across that way.
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Re: My 1st CRK

#108

Post by MacLaren »

TkoK83Spy wrote:
Tue Mar 23, 2021 8:52 am
abbazaba wrote:
Tue Mar 23, 2021 8:49 am
Wondering why the MacLaren already sold the Zaan over one BF? Making a move on a Sebenza?
Yikes!! Bought a new clip for it and everything, didn't even give her a chance Paul!!
Rick, if it had a Spydie hole, it would have prolly been okay. But, it just wasn't my cup of tea.
To be totally honest, the Medfords I've had were smoother. I mean they're stupid smooth..
At any rate, I was really glad to be able to handle one though.
Last edited by MacLaren on Tue Mar 23, 2021 9:47 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: My 1st CRK

#109

Post by MacLaren »

abbazaba wrote:
Tue Mar 23, 2021 9:41 am
MacLaren wrote:
Tue Mar 23, 2021 9:38 am
abbazaba wrote:
Tue Mar 23, 2021 8:49 am
Wondering why the MacLaren already sold the Zaan over one BF? Making a move on a Sebenza?
Why don't ya just ask??
I thought I was? I sincerely apologize if it didn't come across that way.
Oh, no worries. My bad.
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TkoK83Spy
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Re: My 1st CRK

#110

Post by TkoK83Spy »

MacLaren wrote:
Tue Mar 23, 2021 9:46 am
TkoK83Spy wrote:
Tue Mar 23, 2021 8:52 am
abbazaba wrote:
Tue Mar 23, 2021 8:49 am
Wondering why the MacLaren already sold the Zaan over one BF? Making a move on a Sebenza?
Yikes!! Bought a new clip for it and everything, didn't even give her a chance Paul!!
Rick, if it had a Spydie hole, it would have prolly been okay. But, it just wasn't my cup of tea.
To be totally honest, the Medfords I've had were smoother. I mean they're stupid smooth..
At any rate, I was really glad to be able to handle one though.
Yea, at least you got to handle it! Bummer it didn't work out for you though. Was looking forward to hearing more about it!
15 :bug-red 's in 10 different steels
1 - Bradford Guardian 3 / Vanadis 4E Wharnie
1 - Monterey Bay Knives Slayback Flipper / ZDP 189
1 - CRK Small Sebenza 31/Macassar Ebony Inlays
1 - CRK Large Inkosi Insingo/ Black Micarta Inlays
1 - CRK Small Sebenza 31 Insingo/Magnacut

-Rick
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Re: My 1st CRK

#111

Post by MacLaren »

TkoK83Spy wrote:
Tue Mar 23, 2021 10:21 am
MacLaren wrote:
Tue Mar 23, 2021 9:46 am
TkoK83Spy wrote:
Tue Mar 23, 2021 8:52 am
abbazaba wrote:
Tue Mar 23, 2021 8:49 am
Wondering why the MacLaren already sold the Zaan over one BF? Making a move on a Sebenza?
Yikes!! Bought a new clip for it and everything, didn't even give her a chance Paul!!
Rick, if it had a Spydie hole, it would have prolly been okay. But, it just wasn't my cup of tea.
To be totally honest, the Medfords I've had were smoother. I mean they're stupid smooth..
At any rate, I was really glad to be able to handle one though.
Yea, at least you got to handle it! Bummer it didn't work out for you though. Was looking forward to hearing more about it!
Lol, man Rick, I cannot be satisfied with anything lol
Plus, funds are very limited when buying these type knives. Your gonna laugh when I show ya what I got with that CRK money......
Plus, I'm like a little kid, I like pretty flashy colors lol...
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TkoK83Spy
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Re: My 1st CRK

#112

Post by TkoK83Spy »

MacLaren wrote:
Tue Mar 23, 2021 10:39 am
TkoK83Spy wrote:
Tue Mar 23, 2021 10:21 am
MacLaren wrote:
Tue Mar 23, 2021 9:46 am
TkoK83Spy wrote:
Tue Mar 23, 2021 8:52 am


Yikes!! Bought a new clip for it and everything, didn't even give her a chance Paul!!
Rick, if it had a Spydie hole, it would have prolly been okay. But, it just wasn't my cup of tea.
To be totally honest, the Medfords I've had were smoother. I mean they're stupid smooth..
At any rate, I was really glad to be able to handle one though.
Yea, at least you got to handle it! Bummer it didn't work out for you though. Was looking forward to hearing more about it!
Lol, man Rick, I cannot be satisfied with anything lol
Plus, funds are very limited when buying these type knives. Your gonna laugh when I show ya what I got with that CRK money......
Plus, I'm like a little kid, I like pretty flashy colors lol...
Whatever works for you and you like buddy! I know not everyone works in a warehouse like I do and don't use their knives the same way, so different knives and tastes are just fine for other people! ( I know I sometimes struggle with that with some of my posts, I've been trying to be better about that in recent months)

Looking forward to seeing what you got! ;)
15 :bug-red 's in 10 different steels
1 - Bradford Guardian 3 / Vanadis 4E Wharnie
1 - Monterey Bay Knives Slayback Flipper / ZDP 189
1 - CRK Small Sebenza 31/Macassar Ebony Inlays
1 - CRK Large Inkosi Insingo/ Black Micarta Inlays
1 - CRK Small Sebenza 31 Insingo/Magnacut

-Rick
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Re: My 1st CRK

#113

Post by MacLaren »

TkoK83Spy wrote:
Tue Mar 23, 2021 10:57 am
MacLaren wrote:
Tue Mar 23, 2021 10:39 am
TkoK83Spy wrote:
Tue Mar 23, 2021 10:21 am
MacLaren wrote:
Tue Mar 23, 2021 9:46 am


Rick, if it had a Spydie hole, it would have prolly been okay. But, it just wasn't my cup of tea.
To be totally honest, the Medfords I've had were smoother. I mean they're stupid smooth..
At any rate, I was really glad to be able to handle one though.
Yea, at least you got to handle it! Bummer it didn't work out for you though. Was looking forward to hearing more about it!
Lol, man Rick, I cannot be satisfied with anything lol
Plus, funds are very limited when buying these type knives. Your gonna laugh when I show ya what I got with that CRK money......
Plus, I'm like a little kid, I like pretty flashy colors lol...
Whatever works for you and you like buddy! I know not everyone works in a warehouse like I do and don't use their knives the same way, so different knives and tastes are just fine for other people! ( I know I sometimes struggle with that with some of my posts, I've been trying to be better about that in recent months)

Looking forward to seeing what you got! ;)
Thanx good buddy 👍
I think you'll get a kick out of it 😏
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DSH007
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Re: My 1st CRK

#114

Post by DSH007 »

Well.. she arrived on Monday! Small Sebenza 31.

Image

Being completely honest, I have such mixed feelings about this knife that I've put off making any sort of comment on it until now.. Granted, I've only had a couple days with it, but I think I'm finally able to process some of my thoughts on it.. here are some of my initial impressions..

I love the overall aesthetics of this knife. I've always appreciated functional simplicity and this knife is absolutly that..for such a "simple" handle shape, the ergonomics are fantastic.. even with the "small" size, I'm able to get a full, comfortable, grip on the knife in a variety of positions. Excellent, simple ergos. The blade is absolutely gorgeous.. immaculate grinds, beautiful crowned spine, and even with the convex edge giving a little bit different cutting feel, I find the blade to be sharp enough to cut quite well right out of the box.. I have no issues with the blade.. It’s beautiful.

The action is a different story.. it’s not “bad” per se, but I was expecting much better.. out of the box, it was very stiff. Smooth? Yes, sure.. but VERY STIFF. Not anywhere close to phrases like "hydraulic," "butter on glass," etc that I've heard floated around about CRK knives. I got my knife on Monday and took it apart immediately to remove the lanyard. Dis/re-assembly was very easy which I appreciated. I greased the pivot and the action seemed a little better, but it was still quite stiff. Displeased with the action, I disassembled the knife again on Tuesday.. I noticed some strange, very faint, circular machining marks on the washers, so I gave them a few light passes on the fine side of my Double Stuff to smooth them out a bit, added a little bit more grease than the day before, and reassembled the knife. I should mention here, that I am quite impressed by how the blade and pivot assembly can be removed from and inserted into the handle without disassembling it.. nice. After my second assembly the action was noticeably better.. still very smooth, and less stiff than it was before. There is still a ways to go before I'd throw around that "hydraulic" word, but as it continues to break-in, I think it’s headed in that direction..

My knife also has the lockbar flex, or "lock rock" that many have talked (complained) about on the 31s.. it is fairly minimal, but I can detect vertical play when I put pressure on the spine of the blade. Horizontal play is non existent. There is no play at all when pressure is applied to the edge (cutting). The lockbar/ceramic ball engages the blade tang at roughly 65-70%, and in spite of the perceptible “flex” in the lockbar, I don’t think there is any chance of the lock disengaging during normal use. Apparently, the response from CRK has been that this lock-rock/lockbar flex, whatever you want to call it, is a normal because of how the ceramic ball (rather than the lockbar itself, like in the 21) in the 31 engages with the tang. I don’t think that response is ideal coming from a company that claims “bank vault” tolerances, but because the knife is solid in all the ways that matter (force applied to the cutting edge/lockbar safely keeps blade open), I can accept it. I also have a $30 Ruike P801 with less perceptible rock.. just saying..

Another thing about this knife that rubbed me the wrong way was the pocket clip. In use, it’s actually quite excellent, but when I fully disassembled the knife, the clip was nearly impossible to remove when unscrewed. I have a little spudger tool that I use for disassembly and had to wedge that underneath the clip and use significant force to finally dislodge it. Reinserting the pocket clip during reassembly required the use of pliers (used a cloth to protect the finish) to seat the clip properly. I looked online to see if anyone else had this issue and, sure enough, it seems relatively common (or at least.. not uncommon). Of course, CRK fanboys come to the defense of CRK explaining this away as being “due to the extremely high machining tolerances” of CRK knives. Riiight… haha idk why we can’t just call questionable machining questionable machining here.. Idk, maybe I’m just not used to the world of high-end production knives, but I can’t say that I’ve ever needed pliers to install a pocket clip before. Not the end of the world I suppose.. my clip is reinstalled in the correct position.. no harm, no foul I guess?

For me, the $375 elephant in the room with this knife is absolutely the price. Generally, the max I’ll pay for a knife is ~ $200. If I think I’ll really really like the knife, I might go a little higher than $200.. but usually not much. I’ve always wanted a CRK and loved the look of the Sebenza family, so when I got my tax return, I figured “why not?!” and ordered my first knife over $300. I expected to be knocked out of my socks at the quality. Don’t get me wrong.. it’s good. Great even. But not perfect. For $375, I expected perfection.. action out of the box, solid lockup, a pocket clip that I can remove and install without giving myself a hernia.. all of that should be perfect! At double the price of the average knife I buy, I think I was expecting this CRK to be twice as good.. I think my expectations were too high and I’m still having trouble rationalizing that with the cost.

Overall though, I really do like this knife a lot.. but the mental gymnastics I’ve had to do to in my head to justify the price-tag compared with other knives I own are Olympic level. I understand that values are subjective and some of this may just be me being a cheap b@stard haha. I think if you’re willing to spend the money, you’re getting a quality product from CRK. For me personally though.. my feeling is that I have so many knives of comparable (or better!..my opinion) workmanship and materials (yes, I know, my opinion.. ) that cost HALF (not my opinion..FACT) the price of my CRK. Don’t get me wrong, I think my 31 is great knife and I’m happy that I finally have a CRK. I don’t see myself ever selling this knife. I enjoy it more and more each day that I carry it and use it.. I think when in breaks in more completely, it's going to be an excellent knife. I also just don’t see myself adding any more to my collection.

Alright, maybe one more.. I might need to try out a Large Sebenza… :D

Wow, sorry everybody for that long rant :o ..
Rick H.

..well, that escalated quickly..
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TkoK83Spy
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Re: My 1st CRK

#115

Post by TkoK83Spy »

Hahah, I appreciate all your honesty in that post Rick! TRUST ME...the action will continue to get better! I was just like you, almost immediately took my small 31 apart as well because I was a bit disappointed in the action when I first got it. Granted I haven't even really used it much, it's more of pocket jewelry and something I toy around with in my workout room between sets while working out (which has really help break in the action haha) Do I wish I didn't spend $500 on this little knife...absolutely!! It's really a waste since I won't really use it hard because I think it's so beautiful with the Macassar Ebony inlays. But, I will certainly never sell it because of it's beauty and classic look. It's the knife that's always in my pocket when we go to lunch or dinner, or pretty much any time I'm not a work...though I do carry it at work, it's normally just for pictures to be honest.

That's why I went and got the Large Inkosi Insingo shortly after, to have one of these CRK's that I actually use. But, it currently cuts like a turd with some VERY uneven bevels that I've recently shown/discussed in the "what others are in your pocket" thread. I began giving it a reprofile just last night. I really like this knife as well, it's incredibly smooth and can close easily when I disengage the lock and just give it a shake (with no blade play at all) Super solid in hand and feels great with the micarta inlays really filling out my hand.

I've taken both of mine apart and cleaned them up and lubed them, but I've never taken the pocket clip off of either so your troubles are actually tempting me to check that out tonight.

I also have to agree with you, when it comes to really using my knives...I'd choose just about any other knife that I currently have between a handful of brands for much less money, over these knives (hopefully changed my mind on the Inkosi once I get those bevels evened up) $1,000 for 2 knives really is a bit on the crazy side!

Overall I think they are very nice knives, but some of these flaws are definitely unacceptable when spending that kind of money. I do get it, and understand the love and hype for CRK...but I likely won't be buying any more in the future. I'll gladly pay $150-250 for a knife that I KNOW will perform and won't have some of these flaws and leave me wondering why I spent that kind of money.
15 :bug-red 's in 10 different steels
1 - Bradford Guardian 3 / Vanadis 4E Wharnie
1 - Monterey Bay Knives Slayback Flipper / ZDP 189
1 - CRK Small Sebenza 31/Macassar Ebony Inlays
1 - CRK Large Inkosi Insingo/ Black Micarta Inlays
1 - CRK Small Sebenza 31 Insingo/Magnacut

-Rick
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przemekspce
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Re: My 1st CRK

#116

Post by przemekspce »

TkoK83Spy wrote:
Thu Mar 25, 2021 12:39 pm
Hahah, I appreciate all your honesty in that post Rick! TRUST ME...the action will continue to get better! I was just like you, almost immediately took my small 31 apart as well because I was a bit disappointed in the action when I first got it. Granted I haven't even really used it much, it's more of pocket jewelry and something I toy around with in my workout room between sets while working out (which has really help break in the action haha) Do I wish I didn't spend $500 on this little knife...absolutely!! It's really a waste since I won't really use it hard because I think it's so beautiful with the Macassar Ebony inlays. But, I will certainly never sell it because of it's beauty and classic look. It's the knife that's always in my pocket when we go to lunch or dinner, or pretty much any time I'm not a work...though I do carry it at work, it's normally just for pictures to be honest.

That's why I went and got the Large Inkosi Insingo shortly after, to have one of these CRK's that I actually use. But, it currently cuts like a turd with some VERY uneven bevels that I've recently shown/discussed in the "what others are in your pocket" thread. I began giving it a reprofile just last night. I really like this knife as well, it's incredibly smooth and can close easily when I disengage the lock and just give it a shake (with no blade play at all) Super solid in hand and feels great with the micarta inlays really filling out my hand.

I've taken both of mine apart and cleaned them up and lubed them, but I've never taken the pocket clip off of either so your troubles are actually tempting me to check that out tonight.

I also have to agree with you, when it comes to really using my knives...I'd choose just about any other knife that I currently have between a handful of brands for much less money, over these knives (hopefully changed my mind on the Inkosi once I get those bevels evened up) $1,000 for 2 knives really is a bit on the crazy side!

Overall I think they are very nice knives, but some of these flaws are definitely unacceptable when spending that kind of money. I do get it, and understand the love and hype for CRK...but I likely won't be buying any more in the future. I'll gladly pay $150-250 for a knife that I KNOW will perform and won't have some of these flaws and leave me wondering why I spent that kind of money.
I read what you wrote in the "what others are in your pocket" thread. I was surprised because everything is fine in my Inkosi. I bought a used one and I don't know how the previous owner sharpened it.
:bug-red-white Instagram: przemekspce :bug-red
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Re: My 1st CRK

#117

Post by James Y »

Oddly enough, one of the knives I’m least hesitant to use as a dirty job “beater” is my first CRK, my 2002 large regular Sebenza. Probably because I had to completely reprofile its edge brand new out of the box to make it usable. I own some knives that are far less expensive that I wouldn’t use to the degree I’ve used that older Seb. CRKs are extremely solid and durable in use.

Although in general, I use Spydercos more often.

Jim
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Re: My 1st CRK

#118

Post by DSH007 »

TkoK83Spy wrote:
Thu Mar 25, 2021 12:39 pm
Hahah, I appreciate all your honesty in that post Rick! TRUST ME...the action will continue to get better! I was just like you, almost immediately took my small 31 apart as well because I was a bit disappointed in the action when I first got it. Granted I haven't even really used it much, it's more of pocket jewelry and something I toy around with in my workout room between sets while working out (which has really help break in the action haha) Do I wish I didn't spend $500 on this little knife...absolutely!! It's really a waste since I won't really use it hard because I think it's so beautiful with the Macassar Ebony inlays. But, I will certainly never sell it because of it's beauty and classic look. It's the knife that's always in my pocket when we go to lunch or dinner, or pretty much any time I'm not a work...though I do carry it at work, it's normally just for pictures to be honest.

That's why I went and got the Large Inkosi Insingo shortly after, to have one of these CRK's that I actually use. But, it currently cuts like a turd with some VERY uneven bevels that I've recently shown/discussed in the "what others are in your pocket" thread. I began giving it a reprofile just last night. I really like this knife as well, it's incredibly smooth and can close easily when I disengage the lock and just give it a shake (with no blade play at all) Super solid in hand and feels great with the micarta inlays really filling out my hand.

I've taken both of mine apart and cleaned them up and lubed them, but I've never taken the pocket clip off of either so your troubles are actually tempting me to check that out tonight.

I also have to agree with you, when it comes to really using my knives...I'd choose just about any other knife that I currently have between a handful of brands for much less money, over these knives (hopefully changed my mind on the Inkosi once I get those bevels evened up) $1,000 for 2 knives really is a bit on the crazy side!

Overall I think they are very nice knives, but some of these flaws are definitely unacceptable when spending that kind of money. I do get it, and understand the love and hype for CRK...but I likely won't be buying any more in the future. I'll gladly pay $150-250 for a knife that I KNOW will perform and won't have some of these flaws and leave me wondering why I spent that kind of money.
Hahah, I trust you Rick! I already notice it getting better and better each day.. it will get there! I'm developing a nice thumb callus too haha..

I've been using my sm 31 all week.. I don't have anywhere near as much to cut in a typical day as you do, but I've been putting my knife to work where I can. I've had no issues cutting zipties, or blasting through some thick plastic clamshell packaging this week. I'm finding there is something of a learning curve with the convex edge though.. it just cuts differently. It's difficult for me to explain.. it's almost as if the edge wants to deflect away from what you're trying to cut, rather than biting into it, until enough pressure is placed at the apex to actually begin the cut.. if that makes any sense at all.. idk haha.. this isn't necessarily a complaint, I just find that I have to be a little bit more deliberate in making cuts with the convex edge..

The 31 does feel very sturdy and durable to me.. I'm not going to hesitate to use mine where appropriate, but you're right.. I'm definitely more conscious of the fact this knife cost so much money vs some of my others, and it will certainly never be a contender for the role of "beater" haha.. I imagine I'd be even more worried about roughing it up if my knife had the fancy inlays!

I do really like this knife overall.. I enjoy it more and more each day. It's definitely a classic!
Rick H.

..well, that escalated quickly..
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DSH007
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Re: My 1st CRK

#119

Post by DSH007 »

James Y wrote:
Thu Mar 25, 2021 2:39 pm
Oddly enough, one of the knives I’m least hesitant to use as a dirty job “beater” is my first CRK, my 2002 large regular Sebenza. Probably because I had to completely reprofile its edge brand new out of the box to make it usable. I own some knives that are far less expensive that I wouldn’t use to the degree I’ve used that older Seb. CRKs are extremely solid and durable in use.

Although in general, I use Spydercos more often.

Jim
I can understand that Jim. You'll get no argument from me that CRKs are durable knives! I'm sure mine would hold up well for any task.. I could just never bring myself to use it as my "beater" haha.. :o
Rick H.

..well, that escalated quickly..
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Re: My 1st CRK

#120

Post by MacLaren »

DSH007 wrote:
Fri Mar 26, 2021 7:58 am
James Y wrote:
Thu Mar 25, 2021 2:39 pm
Oddly enough, one of the knives I’m least hesitant to use as a dirty job “beater” is my first CRK, my 2002 large regular Sebenza. Probably because I had to completely reprofile its edge brand new out of the box to make it usable. I own some knives that are far less expensive that I wouldn’t use to the degree I’ve used that older Seb. CRKs are extremely solid and durable in use.

Although in general, I use Spydercos more often.

Jim
I can understand that Jim. You'll get no argument from me that CRKs are durable knives! I'm sure mine would hold up well for any task.. I could just never bring myself to use it as my "beater" haha.. :o
Lol, and I find that to be the REAL problem with any knife over $200
Lol, I've had some very nice blades but was always hesitant to use them because of what they cost.
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