Spydercos & Guns

[mikey177]

I had a neutral reaction to the new banner.

In my country, gun ownership is a privilege, the restrictions for which change arbitrarily with each new administration.

That said, I have loved guns since my father first took me to a firing range when I was a kid. Growing up in an urban area, I was into guns long before I became enamored with knives.

I only began to appreciate knives when we moved to a rural area where there is a greater need for them. I probably like knives now more than guns precisely because it is getting more and more restrictive to own a firearm where I live.

We have what is called an LTOPF (License To Own and Possess Firearm), which is like a driver's license for a gun owner. We need to renew it every two years after passing a neuro-psychiatric exam and complying with other tedious requirements.

On top of that, we have registration papers for each firearm, which needs to be renewed every four years for a significant fee. If you fail to renew either your LTOPF or your firearm registration, your guns become illegal and the authorities will write you a letter before seizing them from your home.

Finally, we can only keep 50 rounds of ammunition per firearm --such fun.

[TomAiello]

I really think most US folks can´t really imagine this if they have not lived here in Europe for a while.

Definitely. I have lived in Europe and the USA, and the difference in firearms culture is substantial.

I have friends who live in European countries where you can buy suppressors with no regulation at all (no background check, no wait period, nothing), which seems incredibly liberal (meaning permissive--less government intervention) by USA standards.

The differences are just so large that actual understanding is rare. Firearms basically aren't on the political agenda in Europe at all (pro or con), where they are a huge part of the political agenda (pro and con) in the USA. Even in European countries with high rates of firearm ownership (like Switzerland, where it's pretty much mandatory, or Finland, where it's cultural) there is really no political controversy surrounding guns at all.

[Wartstein]

Wartstein, I appreciate the time you've put into your posts on the subject.

In this thread and the other, I don't think anyone was being disrespectful in the slightest. Just people from different cultures sharing perspective.

Here's some of my perspective on guns.

Growing up, most my friends and I received real guns of some sort from our dads or grandfathers before turning 10, and typically went out on our first hunting trip by this age too.
...

Thanks! I am just trying to paint a picture of how very, very different it is here in Europe concerning guns, partly because I think all the things an European connects automatically and also unconsciously with pro or con carrying a gun are also so fundamentally different to what an American does that this could lead to misunderstandings and even arguments that are not necessary at all.

And yes, this forum proves once more what it is: No one was disrespectful indeed.
And when it comes to me: I literally don´t share my OWN perspective, but just report the general perspective here in Europe

All you say in your posts proves this cultural difference extremly well:

- Your statement "Where I've lived letting a 12-20 year old shoot a gun is way more socially acceptable than giving them a beer with dinner" is most interesting in that regard: Everyone here drinks beer and generally alcohol starting at 16 and in many cases even earlier (which I don´t find a good idea by the way!) - NOT giving an 18 year old person (who can actually vote already, on a more local area even 16 year olds can) a beer (or more) would be seen as extremely weird.
16 year olds regularely go out on weekends together and do drink alcohol. I can of course sit in a public area and openly have a beer if I want to, and so on...BUT:

- If ten year olds would get to handle guns here, even under close watch, almost everyone here would agree that this is not appropriate at all and most likely child protection service would step in.

- There is no "pro gun" movements or statements at all. It is just not an issue at all. Though some individuals might disagree, generally there is a broad consensus across all people and all political parties that civilians should not carry guns.
And since there is almost no gun violence (there are also no "gangs" where members would have guns) compared to the US it is at least kind of comprehensible when some people here draw the direct, though perhaps too simple conclusion: "A gun free society protects from gun violence" (as said for each Austrian that dies from a gun homicide, almost 5000 US citizens die from gun homicides).
While many Americans would say that only a good guy with a gun can stop a bad guy with a gun.
Again, I don´t give my personal opinion here, but just report how it is where I live.

- I know one single hunting store (that does not carry camping gear and very few pocket knives) where hunters could buy rifles if they have the resp. licence (but only carry these rifles when actually hunting!), but other than that: No "gun shops" at all here.
Just not a real market for that.

- If I came up to any of my buddies, friends, family members, coworkers and asked: "Hey, I´ll gift you a gun, pay for shooting instructions and you know what, you can carry it legally no problem" they literally ALL would say something like: "Are you crazy? Why should I want to carry a gun?" Really, it would be a bit like if I said: "Hey, you can carry a medieval plate armour and a polearm in your day to day life" (of course some might find it fun to go target shooting, but I am pretty sure many would even pay me money in order to NOT have to carry a gun...)

- This is just what it is here. Totally different cultures in that regard.

[Wartstein]

Nice post Wartstein!
...

...

The 19, Cool!
I have and prefer the 17 myself :D

I was wrong! It actually IS the Glock 17 Austrian Police (and Military) get issued (I´ll edit my post resp.)

[Wartstein]

The 19, Cool!
I have and prefer the 17 myself :D

Added to my post above :D (the single gun we ever get to see here)

[Wartstein]

The people that disappeared under Pol Pot, Hitler, Stalin and Mao want their own 2nd Amendment now too.

Here I have to disagree - and please see it in the context of an historical, not political discussion! :)

My grandmothers and -fathers lived under the Nazi-regime (Austria was the first country "occupied" by the Nazis), the latter both had to fight in the second world war. I read and studied a lot about that period of time. This is NOT generally against something like your 2nd amendment (!), but imho it would have helped the people that actually disappeared under Hitler and Stalin not at all.
(I don´t know enough about Mao and Pol Pot to give an educated opinion here, but I assume it would have been no different).

[Wartstein]

The Spyderco Forum header in no way bothers me, makes me feel at home.
....

As for the banner, I couldn't care less. I honestly didn't give it a second thought until that thread. But, I also don't search out things to be upset with, and when I do see things I don't agree with I remember that I only control me and my actions and that others are free to do their own thing regardless of how I feel. We used to call that minding our own business but that's probably offensive now too.

David, I generally share your attitude towards such things 100%.

And as said. I personally don´t have a problem with that banner whatsoever!!
The discussion started cause another European member gave his (rather negative) thoughts on it, and I did weigh in out of interest for differences in western cultures and so on.

I think my goal here is a bit to make clear: "Have mercy" with my fellow Europeans when it comes to guns:
An "anti gun" European often has very different reasons, background and motivations than an "anti gun" American. The European will find it just totally normal that civilians should not carry guns, like you might say "I certainly don´t go to church in just my underpants" or whatever. And most Europeans won´t know and understand at all that Americans are often very annoyed with the gun discussions already, that being against gun carry in the US is often related to a certain general political direction, that Americans are also concerned about constitutional rights when it comes to guns and so on.

You probably just can´t imagine how differently many here perceive guns.
Regardless if you or I understand or like this: As said in Europe it is just as normal to say "Civilians should not carry guns" as it is in the US to say "3 year olds should not carry guns when not under close watch"; or, to give an admittedly a bit weird example ( just to transport the European approach towards this): Like an American might say "A civilian should not have a nuclear warhead at home"

And so, again regardless if you or I like or understand this: For many Europeans a banner displaying guns and knives in a beautifully made, "everyday context" picture might be perceived just like an Americans might find it not appropriate to display knives in some pornographic context or like an American might find it not appropriate to display a bloody war scene as a "normal everyday background".
NOT my opinion. But just how it is. And a large part of me tends to think that Spyderco as a proud American company perhaps should just use "American" banners, and not care if people from other cultures like that or not.

[SpyderGrill]

This is not aimed at you Wartstein, This is aimed for my fellow Americans and theres a reason for it. God knows they are trying to take it away from us!

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

"When government fears the people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny."

[TomAiello]

A couple years ago I took some friends of mine out shooting in the desert here. One of them was German. His comment was 'if we had these guns in Germany, the house would be surrounded by a SWAT team!"

There are good and bad things about every place in the world. The trick is to find the place where you (personally) really like the good things, and you (personally) can tolerate the bad things.

[Wartstein]

A couple years ago I took some friends of mine out shooting in the desert here. One of them was German. His comment was 'if we had these guns in Germany, the house would be surrounded by a SWAT team!"

There are good and bad things about every place in the world. The trick is to find the place where you (personally) really like the good things, and you (personally) can tolerate the bad things.

And Tom, he did not exaggerate! In Germany (and Austria) a SWAT team would most likely come indeed to confiscate such guns and the (here illegal) owner would go to prison.

[Wartstein]

This is not aimed at you Wartstein, This is aimed for my fellow Americans and theres a reason for it. God knows they are trying to take it away from us!

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

"When government fears the people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny."

Thanks, and I know this! :)

As said, all I wrote is just to point out the cultural differences from an European perspective, which I find really interesting

It has nothing to do with my personal thoughts and opinions at all!

It is just like you might report that 18 year olds are not allowed to drink beer and no one is in public places, and that most people agree on this where you live - regardless what your personal opinion might be.

The things you (and many Americans) say about the necessity of a Militia, that government should fear people and that it is this, what guarantees liberty will also be seen very different in Europe generally. Most people would say that a Militia can/could be (mis-)USED by a government... or that smaller, but better armed groups of civilians could lever out democracy and a minority could force their will on a majority.
Again, this is just about generally pointing out differences between European and US culture and point of views. Not about sharing personal opinions!!

[SpyderGrill]

I would never report an 18 year old for drinking beer, I was 15 once :)

[shunsui]

How do you peceive the new banner?

I don't have a problem with the new banner.

I don't see the need to overthink it either.

[Wartstein]

How do you peceive the new banner?

I don't have a problem with the new banner.

I don't see the need to overthink it either.

100 % agree.... kind of

- People (including Europeans) should indeed not overthink and certainly not criticize or even feel offended by an pretty "American themed" banner on an American forum!! Here is the "100 % agreed"

- But in the context of a friendly, respectful and constructive discussion about differences in US and European cultures it is totally fine and actually a great example for those who happen to be interested in these differences. At best it might even lead to deeper understanding and to avoiding possible unnecessary arguments based on misunderstandings.

- Also, for me it is interesting that this very topic shows as just one example what Spyderco has to think about when approaching an international bunch of customers. NOT in a sense which is the right or wrong approach here: Just thinking about how detailed that matter is: As a marketing guy at Spyderco I´d have to muse: Do I focus more on American buyers? OR do I work with more neutral, international subjets? Do I calculate possible indirect political statements or not? Or to what degree all of the former?
You know, just interesting, and one area of the huge topic "knives" :)

- But: I try to refrain from discussing my own, personal political opinion here.. Though on the one hand I LOVE discussing politics in a respectful manner, but on the other hand I am 100 % convinced that the "no politics, no religion, no sales" is really important for this forum

[M Sea]

I'm getting sick of being villainized for being a gun owner. I'm sick of being associated with people who commit violent crimes just because I'm a gun owner.

I'm with you.

Me too.

[benben]

I love guns, I love knives, and honestly the banner just looked normal to me. But...because of this thread I really like it a lot more now!

No offense Wartstein, I pray daily that this Country never turns into a Germany, I’m worried!

[TomAiello]

No offense Wartstein, I pray daily that this Country never turns into a Germany, I’m worried!

There are good things and bad things about every place on earth. The trick is to find a place where you love the good things, and you can tolerate the bad things. There are many good things about Germany (and almost all other countries), as well as many bad things. Without spending time (hopefully as much as possible) in a place, it's very difficult to accurately judge. I know visitors who have been shocked that they weren't shot at on the street when they arrived in the USA, because their entire view of the USA came from the news media, which largely paints it as a place full of ignorant racists that is constantly simmering with violent unrest.

[benben]

No offense Wartstein, I pray daily that this Country never turns into a Germany, I’m worried!

There are good things and bad things about every place on earth. The trick is to find a place where you love the good things, and you can tolerate the bad things. There are many good things about Germany (and almost all other countries), as well as many bad things. Without spending time (hopefully as much as possible) in a place, it's very difficult to accurately judge. I know visitors who have been shocked that they weren't shot at on the street when they arrived in the USA, because there entire view of the USA came from the news media, which largely paints it as a place full of ignorant racists that is constantly simmering with violent unrest.

Agreed, and you’re 100% right. I should have specified gun control / restrictions for law abiding citizens here in America with my comment towards Germany!

[TomAiello]

The things you (and many Americans) say about the necessity of a Militia, that government should fear people and that it is this, what guarantees liberty will also be seen very different in Europe generally. Most people would say that a Militia can/could be (mis-)USED by a government... or that smaller, but better armed groups of civilians could lever out democracy and a minority could force their will on a majority.

There is some variability between European countries (and regions of the same country) on these issues, too.

In some places, memories of historical events where armed civilians are viewed as heroes have a different cultural impact. In Piedmont, for example, most people have a general attitude similar to what you are describing, but in Sicily, the general population is less trusting of the central government, for historical reasons, and views insurrection against it as a less repugnant alternative. In the last two invasions of Sicily (one of which, ironically, was by a militia from Piedmont led by Giuseppe Garibaldi) the general working class population of the island largely sympathized with the invaders, rather than their own ruling classes. I think this tradition can be dated at least as far back as an event called the Sicilian Vespers, which occurred in 1282.

[Sharp Guy]

I haven't yet taken the time to read all the posts in this thread. But I find it kind of sad that most view the firearms industry as being solely for military, LEO, and defense. It's certainly all those things but it's also huge in the sporting world. I have my carry license and keep guns for home protection but shooting sports (including hunting) have always been a big part of my life. I've done position shooting (several types, including a league at our club), silhouette shooting, prone shotgun competition (Trap, Skeet, Sporting Clays, etc), and now I'm doing precision long range competitions. A lot of these same shooting games that I've enjoyed are also very popular in Europe.

Most of the world's leading firearm manufacturers are also based in Europe. I'm sure I missed several in my list below

Anschutz (one of my favorites)
CZ (another favorite)
Sako/Tikka
Walther
Beretta
Heckler & Kock
Bleiker
Grunig-Elmiger
Uberti
Hammerli
Pardini
Fabrique Nationale (FN)
Sig Sauer
Glock
Mauser

I used to work for a German company that was located near Ulm (Anschutz). When I'd travel there for work my colleagues pointed out a few local clubs where they had target shooting. Mostly with air rifles due to restrictions. When my colleagues would travel to the US they expressed interest in shooting and we even took them target shooting and they seemed to enjoy it immensely.