Spydercos & Guns

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Wartstein
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Re: Spydercos & Guns

Postby Wartstein » Sat Mar 06, 2021 11:06 am

benben wrote:
Sat Mar 06, 2021 8:02 am
I love guns, I love knives, and honestly the banner just looked normal to me. But...because of this thread I really like it a lot more now!

No offense Wartstein, I pray daily that this Country never turns into a Germany, I’m worried!

All fine, You can´t offend me here anyway, my friend! :)

I am just describing how things are here where I live, I don´t give a personal opinion at all (btw I live in Austria, not in Germany. But concerning guns Austria is pretty much the same as Germany, while we in Austria have vastly better knife laws (we can carry any knife we like, while Germany has crazy restrictions imho).

And if your country suddenly turned into Germany concerning guns, that sure would be hard for you!

BUT: If you had been growing up and lived all your life here: You´d 100% have no problem with the situation. Just since NO ONE does.
Guns are just not part of society or everyday life, you would have never seen a Civilian carrying a gun, there would be no discussions about guns at all, but a total consensus, no one would even want to carry a gun, there would be practically no gun violence and no perceived need to protect oneself with a gun. IF you saw a normal guy carrying a gun this would be almost as weird as he´d carry a two handed sword or a bikini top.

This is what I try to transport here:
For Americans the whole "gun thing" is so vastly more important than where I live, there is so much more controversy and political discussion about this in the US, a person might even be defined to some degree (politically or even generally) what they think about guns... while here it just IS NOT a thing at all. And the depth of this difference just can´t be fully grasped often times by Europeans as well as by Americans:
- If an European says he is against gun carry: An American might automatically react like he would if a fellow American says this. But it is NOT the same: In the US there is a discussion and huge controversy here, people actually take a side when pro or anti gun. In Europe being "against" gun carry is actually not really "against". It is no "choice", no "taking a side". It is just natural and what almost everyone thinks here.
Vice versa an European might think (again, NOT ME! ;) )that it is really weird that so many US people do and want to carry guns. Just cause many just "learned" from child on that (in Europe!) only rather weird people DO carry guns...
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Re: Spydercos & Guns

Postby vivi » Sat Mar 06, 2021 11:10 am

Wartstein wrote:
Sat Mar 06, 2021 12:22 am

It is just like you might report that 18 year olds are not allowed to drink beer and no one is in public places, and that most people agree on this where you live - regardless what your personal opinion might be.
Things may be a little closer to your experience here on this subject. People openly drink all the time here, they just try to avoid cops knowing about it :p When I'm on my kayak, playing disc golf, hiking, camping, lake swimming, fishing, skateboarding etc. I see people drinking. Some US cities allow you to walk around with alcohol as long as you're not falling over you're so drunk.

Most people never care about that sort of thing as long as you aren't being obnoxious. Technically its illegal. But so are a lot of things that the public here generally isn't against.
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Re: Spydercos & Guns

Postby Wartstein » Sat Mar 06, 2021 11:18 am

M Sea wrote:
Sat Mar 06, 2021 3:23 am
TomAiello wrote:
Fri Mar 05, 2021 7:54 pm
Evil D wrote:
Fri Mar 05, 2021 6:50 pm
I'm getting sick of being villainized for being a gun owner. I'm sick of being associated with people who commit violent crimes just because I'm a gun owner.
I'm with you.
Me too.

Hey mates,

I hope you are not referring to any of MY posts here!

- 1.) I personally would never associate American gun owners with "criminals"' and the like! I don´t have a "gun background" myself (just cause NO ONE here has), but I know enough about the US and the perception of guns there, to totally understand and respect why people want to own and carry guns in America (I would probably do so too if I grew up in the US!)
- 2.) And what I describe about Europeans who are actually "anti gun" indeed: They just might have "learned" during there whole life that owning guns is (in their view!!!) connected to "violence". They just never saw the other side. They don´t have developed any sense why it would be a good thing to carry a gun. They see a vastly higher rate of gun homicides in the US compared to Europe plus they know that Americans can carry guns in many places, and so they just automatically draw the conclusion that a "gun free" society (like in Europe) leeds to a lot less gun violence.. that´s just how it is here, no my opinion, just a description.
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Re: Spydercos & Guns

Postby Wartstein » Sat Mar 06, 2021 11:27 am

vivi wrote:
Sat Mar 06, 2021 11:10 am
Wartstein wrote:
Sat Mar 06, 2021 12:22 am

It is just like you might report that 18 year olds are not allowed to drink beer and no one is in public places, and that most people agree on this where you live - regardless what your personal opinion might be.
Things may be a little closer to your experience here on this subject. People openly drink all the time here, they just try to avoid cops knowing about it :p When I'm on my kayak, playing disc golf, hiking, camping, lake swimming, fishing, skateboarding etc. I see people drinking. Some US cities allow you to walk around with alcohol as long as you're not falling over you're so drunk.

Most people never care about that sort of thing as long as you aren't being obnoxious. Technically its illegal. But so are a lot of things that the public here generally isn't against.

That´s interesting!

I visited California and Nevada some years ago (sadly for just two weeks), and I seem to recall that one of the reasons why Americans enjoyed being in Vegas was that there they could openly drink alcohol... while not so anywhere else around...

/ Another difference between the US and Europe is to some degree what is perceived as politically "left" or "right".
Let´s take free-healthcare-for-all as an example:
When Sen. Bernie Sanders talks about his visions about healthcare for all, he is seen as very "left" in the US.
In Europe though what he proposes is totally normal. Where I live of course there is free healthcare for all. You don´t pay for anything, except with dentists should you want a better than the average treatment. This is not seen as "left" or "right". it is just totally natural here and there is no discussion about it among all political parties.Practically NO ONE would want it different.
Last edited by Wartstein on Sat Mar 06, 2021 10:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Spydercos & Guns

Postby vivi » Sat Mar 06, 2021 11:32 am

Wartstein wrote:
Sat Mar 06, 2021 11:06 am
benben wrote:
Sat Mar 06, 2021 8:02 am
I love guns, I love knives, and honestly the banner just looked normal to me. But...because of this thread I really like it a lot more now!

No offense Wartstein, I pray daily that this Country never turns into a Germany, I’m worried!

All fine, You can´t offend me here anyway, my friend! :)

I am just describing how things are here where I live, I don´t give a personal opinion at all (btw I live in Austria, not in Germany. But concerning guns Austria is pretty much the same as Germany, while we in Austria have vastly better knife laws (we can carry any knife we like, while Germany has crazy restrictions imho).

And if your country suddenly turned into Germany concerning guns, that sure would be hard for you!

BUT: If you had been growing up and lived all your life here: You´d 100% have no problem with the situation. Just since NO ONE does.
Guns are just not part of society or everyday life, you would have never seen a Civilian carrying a gun, there would be no discussions about guns at all, but a total consensus, no one would even want to carry a gun, there would be practically no gun violence and no perceived need to protect oneself with a gun. IF you saw a normal guy carrying a gun this would be almost as weird as he´d carry a two handed sword or a bikini top.

This is what I try to transport here:
For Americans the whole "gun thing" is so vastly more important than where I live, there is so much more controversy and political discussion about this in the US, a person might even be defined to some degree (politically or even generally) what they think about guns... while here it just IS NOT a thing at all. And the depth of this difference just can´t be fully grasped often times by Europeans as well as by Americans:
- If an European says he is against gun carry: An American might automatically react like he would if a fellow American says this. But it is NOT the same: In the US there is a discussion and huge controversy here, people actually take a side when pro or anti gun. In Europe being "against" gun carry is actually not really "against". It is no "choice", no "taking a side". It is just natural and what almost everyone thinks here.
Vice versa an European might think (again, NOT ME! ;) )that it is really weird that so many US people do and want to carry guns. Just cause many just "learned" from child on that (in Europe!) only rather weird people DO carry guns...
I think a lot of our modern differences in attitude has to do with the last few centuries of history.

UK, Germany, France, Austria, Spain, Sweden etc. have history going back thousands of years. There were established civilizations prior to the Romans. Urban developments have been around for centuries, sometimes longer. London alone was established by the Romans about two thousand years ago, and remains of settlements up to 7,000 years old have been found along the River Thames.

In the US we basically destroyed everything that was built prior to the 16th century, and its rare to come across a building over 100 years old. There are a few token sites leftover from Native Americans, like the cliff dwellings and Serpent Mound, but we don't have the castles, roman ruins, and 300-1100 year old churches like Europe does.

Many countries in Europe have had large urbanized areas developed for thousands of years, while in the US many of our large cities simply did not exist 100-200 years ago.

The westward expansion into the US frontier, the conflicts with Natives, the reliance on hunting for survival in the earlier days of our country and the rebellion against English rule meant our nation had a severe reliance on arms during its formative years.

To this day we have large swathes of rural areas where hunting is still a popular past time and a means of providing for ones family, where police response times are 30-70 minutes in good weather so you're responsible for your own defense, and things like bears and mountain lions and wild boar may pose a danger to you and yours.

So even in 2021 there are still good reasons for many US citizens to own arms outside of the scope of hypothetical revolt against a tyrannical government.

Another thing that might be easy to miss is not only does my country have more guns than people in it, estimates put us at multiple guns per every human in the USA. there simply is no way you can one day decide guns are banned and it will work. Countless people will resist, or bury their guns, or to pay homage to an old meme, "lose them in a boating accident."

Imagine trying to outlaw guns if you had three guns in your country for every citizen that lived there.....excluding military and police weapons.

Do guns have a role in keeping a modern democratic state in check? Maybe, maybe not. Its interesting to me how strongly some people in my country feel the answer is yes, and how strongly some people in European countries feel the answer is no.
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Re: Spydercos & Guns

Postby vivi » Sat Mar 06, 2021 11:43 am

Wartstein wrote:
Sat Mar 06, 2021 11:27 am
vivi wrote:
Sat Mar 06, 2021 11:10 am
Wartstein wrote:
Sat Mar 06, 2021 12:22 am

It is just like you might report that 18 year olds are not allowed to drink beer and no one is in public places, and that most people agree on this where you live - regardless what your personal opinion might be.
Things may be a little closer to your experience here on this subject. People openly drink all the time here, they just try to avoid cops knowing about it :p When I'm on my kayak, playing disc golf, hiking, camping, lake swimming, fishing, skateboarding etc. I see people drinking. Some US cities allow you to walk around with alcohol as long as you're not falling over you're so drunk.

Most people never care about that sort of thing as long as you aren't being obnoxious. Technically its illegal. But so are a lot of things that the public here generally isn't against.

That´s interesting!

I visited California and Nevada some years ago (sadly for just two weeks), and I seem to recall that one of the reasons why Americans enjoyed being in Vegas was that there they could openly drink alcohol... while not so anywhere else around...

/ Another difference between the US and Europe is to some degree what is perceived as politically "left" or "right".
Let´s take free-healthcare-for-all as an example:
When Sen. Bernie Sanders talks about his visions about healthcare for all, he is seen as very "left" in the US.
In Europe though what he proposes is totally normal. Where I live of course there is free healthcare for all. You don´t pay for anything, except with dentists should you want a better than the average treatment. This is not "left", it is just totally natural and there is no discussion about it among all political parties.Practically NO ONE would want it different.
I know a lot of folks I've talked to about taxation, healthcare, "obamacare" etc. currently feel they don't get what they deserve from the current level of taxation, and resist new taxes as a blanket rule.

The government currently takes about 1/3 of our income by force.

It costs over $1,000 to take an ambulance three miles to the nearest hospital (that is, if you're lucky enough to get injured that close to one). If you want a minor cavity filled its a few hundred dollars, more than a Zwear Shaman :p Our roads are often cracked, crumbling and full of potholes. Constant delays in the mail and huge lines at the post office. Massive waits at the DMV (Department of Motor Vehicles, where you obtain a drivers license or state id, or update these documents). Highway construction that takes so long it never ends, because when one project is done another is needed. Electrical blackouts, failed levees and forest fires that are as much the result of incompetence as anything else. Crippling debt if you go to the hospital for something serious, even with insurance. God help if if you have none.

Americans see this inefficiency, this poor infrastructure, and they see their politicians flying around in private jets able to do insider trading legally while they enjoy top of the line healthcare for life at no cost to them, and they feel, "why should I give even more of my money to them?"

The tax issue can be summed up well with one example. Our taxes build our roads. Yet a lot of our roads are toll roads. That's right. We have to pay for the privilege of using the very roads our taxes paid for. Maybe I'm missing something but this always struck me as absurd, so I avoid toll roads as much as possible out of principle.

Classism is a massive issue here. I could write another post on the subject but I need to get off my laptop and go hike :D
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Re: Spydercos & Guns

Postby Wartstein » Sat Mar 06, 2021 11:47 am

vivi wrote:
Sat Mar 06, 2021 11:43 am
Wartstein wrote:
Sat Mar 06, 2021 11:27 am
vivi wrote:
Sat Mar 06, 2021 11:10 am
Wartstein wrote:
Sat Mar 06, 2021 12:22 am
....
Classism is a massive issue here. I could write another post on the subject but I need to get off my laptop and go hike :D

Then happy hiking for now!! :)
Bring a knife for no spin throwing! :p
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Re: Spydercos & Guns

Postby mikey177 » Sat Mar 06, 2021 8:09 pm

Sharp Guy wrote:
Sat Mar 06, 2021 10:06 am
I haven't yet taken the time to read all the posts in this thread. But I find it kind of sad that most view the firearms industry as being solely for military, LEO, and defense. It's certainly all those things but it's also huge in the sporting world. I have my carry license and keep guns for home protection but shooting sports (including hunting) have always been a big part of my life. I've done position shooting (several types, including a league at our club), silhouette shooting, prone shotgun competition (Trap, Skeet, Sporting Clays, etc), and now I'm doing precision long range competitions. A lot of these same shooting games that I've enjoyed are also very popular in Europe.

Most of the world's leading firearm manufacturers are also based in Europe. I'm sure I missed several in my list below

Anschutz (one of my favorites)
CZ (another favorite)
Sako/Tikka
Walther
Beretta
Heckler & Kock
Bleiker
Grunig-Elmiger
Uberti
Hammerli
Pardini
Fabrique Nationale (FN)
Sig Sauer
Glock
Mauser

I used to work for a German company that was located near Ulm (Anschutz). When I'd travel there for work my colleagues pointed out a few local clubs where they had target shooting. Mostly with air rifles due to restrictions. When my colleagues would travel to the US they expressed interest in shooting and we even took them target shooting and they seemed to enjoy it immensely.
I agree that guns are great for sporting use. Being part of our college shooting team made my love for guns grow. I was very active in 10-meter air pistol for a time, and I loved it because it fed my OC nature.

I would add Steyr and Feinwerkbau to the list of good European firearm manufacturers.

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Re: Spydercos & Guns

Postby Reject » Sat Mar 06, 2021 9:08 pm

I like the new header.

Actually; it looks like a very well put together and considered photo.

The knife; a Police model of course. (Not a Yojumbo or Pkal.)
Safety glasses: A must for a day at the range. You can almost imagine a pair of ear muffs sitting off to the side.
Ammo: No nasty hollow points, pistol ammo in range packaging.

Just looks like someone is going to have fun day at the range.

Sal on occasion has classified himself as a Shooter.

I like knives, I like guns. I have been competing in IPSC matches for the last 27 years and still loving it.
I see that even Austria has people that like competing IPSC matches too. http://www.ipscaustria.at/
Last edited by Reject on Sat Mar 06, 2021 10:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Spydercos & Guns

Postby TomAiello » Sat Mar 06, 2021 10:00 pm

Wartstein wrote:
Sat Mar 06, 2021 11:27 am
I visited California and Nevada some years ago (sadly for just two weeks), and I seem to recall that one of the reasons why Americans enjoyed being in Vegas was that there they could openly drink alcohol... while not so anywhere else around...
California is one of the most illiberal (more government restrictions) places in the USA. People from California are generally shocked at freedoms (like drinking in public) that are commonplace in other parts of the country. Drinking in public is both legal and widely accepted where I live. So is carrying fixed blades, or firearms. Smoking marijuana is still technically illegal, but widely tolerated, even in public.

Different places are different, and saying 'the USA' is a bit like saying 'Europe'. The difference between California and Idaho is almost as large as the difference between Greece and Norway.

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Re: Spydercos & Guns

Postby TomAiello » Sat Mar 06, 2021 10:01 pm

Wartstein wrote:
Sat Mar 06, 2021 11:27 am
Where I live of course there is free healthcare for all. You don´t pay for anything, except with dentists should you want a better than the average treatment. This is not "left", it is just totally natural and there is no discussion about it among all political parties.Practically NO ONE would want it different.
Without diving into politics, it's definitely not free. You just pay for it differently (via taxes).

Questions of efficiency and cost are real. The idea that you can get something for zero cost is really just a construct created by hiding the costs.

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Re: Spydercos & Guns

Postby Wartstein » Sat Mar 06, 2021 10:24 pm

TomAiello wrote:
Sat Mar 06, 2021 10:01 pm
Wartstein wrote:
Sat Mar 06, 2021 11:27 am
Where I live of course there is free healthcare for all. You don´t pay for anything, except with dentists should you want a better than the average treatment. This is not "left", it is just totally natural and there is no discussion about it among all political parties.Practically NO ONE would want it different.
Without diving into politics, it's definitely not free. You just pay for it differently (via taxes).

Questions of efficiency and cost are real. The idea that you can get something for zero cost is really just a construct created by hiding the costs.

Tom, you are right of course!
I just used "free healthcare for all" as a technical term (how it is just used in most discussions), not what it actually IS! Of course the costs have to be paid, just in a different way!

i also did in not weigh in about what I personally think about it.

Just described another thing that is a difference between European and US culture.
Europeans are just used to go to a Doctor or the hospital and basically pay almost nothing for most treatments and medicine directly
Most don't think about that they indirectly (the costs are hidden) DO pay of course!

Still, it is just a difference between cultures.
Where I live even the poorest person will get an even very expensive treatment "for free" - though in truth society pays of course.

I want to emphasize once more: This is not about discussing which approaches are better or worse, just about purely describing differences between the US and Europe I came across.
Last edited by Wartstein on Sun Mar 07, 2021 2:05 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Spydercos & Guns

Postby RustyIron » Sat Mar 06, 2021 11:10 pm

TomAiello wrote:
Sat Mar 06, 2021 10:00 pm
Different places are different, and saying 'the USA' is a bit like saying 'Europe'. The difference between California and Idaho is almost as large as the difference between Greece and Norway.
A greater truth never been spoken on this forum, kids.

So, Wartstein...
Perhaps the question is best asked from a sociological perspective. Where did Americans come from? We were the misfit malcontents from Europe who hated Kings, Queens, nobility and being told what to do. Our founders decided that they could do it better themselves, and didn't want interference from powdered wig pencil-necks, so they got on boats and headed west. The majority of those who immigrated later were of the same mindset. They gave up whatever they had in their homelands to come to a place where they could do it better themselves. Today, many of us maintain the same mentality: we can best earn a living with out government interference, we are better able to protect ourselves than the police are able, and the people in government aren't really very good at anything, otherwise they'd have real jobs. So I think it is a result of our feeling of self-reliance that so many of us own and carry guns. We trust ourselves, and NOT the King.

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Re: Spydercos & Guns

Postby Wartstein » Sun Mar 07, 2021 12:23 am

RustyIron wrote:
Sat Mar 06, 2021 11:10 pm
TomAiello wrote:
Sat Mar 06, 2021 10:00 pm

Hi Rusty,

thanks for your reply, you summed up perfectly and much better than I could.. what I personally KNOW, fully understand and totally respect anyway! :)
I am a bit afraid that I still could not make clear what I am intending with my posts:
- I myself am not asking, questioning or even criticizing why/that Americans do and want to carry guns at all
- I personally am interested in and know enough about US history and culture to as said fully respect and comprehend the approach towards guns in America.
- BUT: Many other Europeans don´t know about all the background. They don´t understand why Americans want to carry guns just because in Europe almost no one feels a need for it. All I want to do is to perhaps enhance mutual understanding!
I personally know why Americans carry guns and I am totally fine with it! :)
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Re: Spydercos & Guns

Postby shunsui » Sun Mar 07, 2021 12:46 am

Wartstein wrote:
Sun Mar 07, 2021 12:23 am
- BUT: Many other Europeans don´t know about all the background. They don´t understand why Americans want to carry guns just because in Europe almost no one feels a need for it. All I want to do is to perhaps enhance mutual understanding!
Not necessary. Here in America we have many Americans who don't understand why others want to carry guns just because they themselves don't feel a need for it. I'm sure they share exactly the same mindset as your neighbors. It's not some foreign concept to us.

But I think all this is very far from the question of how you like the Spyderco banner on the forum page.

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Re: Spydercos & Guns

Postby Wartstein » Sun Mar 07, 2021 12:49 am

TomAiello wrote:
Sat Mar 06, 2021 10:00 pm
Wartstein wrote:
Sat Mar 06, 2021 11:27 am
I visited California and Nevada some years ago (sadly for just two weeks), and I seem to recall that one of the reasons why Americans enjoyed being in Vegas was that there they could openly drink alcohol... while not so anywhere else around...
.....
Different places are different, and saying 'the USA' is a bit like saying 'Europe'. The difference between California and Idaho is almost as large as the difference between Greece and Norway.

You are right once more Tom and I was not really precise.
Just for context: My thoughts about differences between Europe and the US in the approach towards alcohol were originally meant as a reply to a statement in one of Vivis posts
"Where I've lived letting a 12-20 year old shoot a gun is way more socially acceptable than giving them a beer with dinner" - most Europeans could almost not believe that... ;) Everyone drinks beer at the age of 16 where I live, but no person I know or have ever known shoots / has shot a gun (outside of the mandatory military service for young men)
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Re: Spydercos & Guns

Postby TomAiello » Sun Mar 07, 2021 12:54 am

Wartstein wrote:
Sat Mar 06, 2021 11:18 am
M Sea wrote:
Sat Mar 06, 2021 3:23 am
TomAiello wrote:
Fri Mar 05, 2021 7:54 pm
Evil D wrote:
Fri Mar 05, 2021 6:50 pm
I'm getting sick of being villainized for being a gun owner. I'm sick of being associated with people who commit violent crimes just because I'm a gun owner.
I'm with you.
Me too.

Hey mates,

I hope you are not referring to any of MY posts here!
No. It's not your posts. I think your posts are very reasonable and explain things well.

The posts you quoted are basically responses to (almost continuous) political attacks in the USA.

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Re: Spydercos & Guns

Postby Wartstein » Sun Mar 07, 2021 1:00 am

shunsui wrote:
Sun Mar 07, 2021 12:46 am
Wartstein wrote:
Sun Mar 07, 2021 12:23 am
- BUT: Many other Europeans don´t know about all the background. They don´t understand why Americans want to carry guns just because in Europe almost no one feels a need for it. All I want to do is to perhaps enhance mutual understanding!
Not necessary. Here in America we have many Americans who don't understand why others want to carry guns just because they themselves don't feel a need for it. I'm sure they share exactly the same mindset as your neighbors. It's not some foreign concept to us.

But I think all this is very far from the question of how you like the Spyderco banner on the forum page.

I have to disagree: US citizens who perhaps share the same thoughts as my neighbours here in Austria are still very different to them.
Why?

- US citizens know that there is a controversy concerning guns. They know that it is not "only" about gun carry but about a constituional right. They know that by taking guns away they take away something that is valuable to many of their fellow Americans. They actively take a side in an ongoing discussion that is very important to Americans

- Totally different with my neighbours. No one here want s to carry a gun, just as they don´t want to carry a two handed swords. There is no discussion at all about gun carry. It is in no way a political agenda. No political party is PRO gun carry (or better said: They don´t even have to have an opinion on it cause it is just not a thing at all). Saying "I am against gun carry" here is just saying what everybody else says and wants to anyway. Being against guns where I live does not take away anything from fellow citizens, cause they don´t want to carry one anyway!

THIS is what I want to make clear. The differences on that matter are a lot bigger between the US and Europe as many might think.

And with all due respect: I don´t think the topic of this thread is "only" how one "likes the banner". At least that is certainly not what the initiator of the thread (Vivi) transports.
Top three going by pocket-time: Endura 4 in VG 10/Micarta-scales; Stretch 1 in VG 10; Endura 4 in HAP 40

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shunsui
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Re: Spydercos & Guns

Postby shunsui » Sun Mar 07, 2021 1:25 am

Wartstein wrote:
Sun Mar 07, 2021 1:00 am
I have to disagree:
Feel free to disagree; and enjoy your neighbors.

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Wartstein
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Re: Spydercos & Guns

Postby Wartstein » Sun Mar 07, 2021 2:13 am

shunsui wrote:
Sun Mar 07, 2021 1:25 am
Wartstein wrote:
Sun Mar 07, 2021 1:00 am
I have to disagree:
Feel free to disagree; and enjoy your neighbors.

Thanks ;)
And I think it is pretty obvious why I and I think most would have to disagree here. The typical "anti-gun" American just is not the same as the typical "anti gun" - European, as I think made clear in my last post (and I hope most Americans at least try to understand that. Such as Europeans really should inform themselves about the deep background of US gun culture and get to a better understanding)
Just because it is not a thing here. No one carries or wants to carry a gun. It is not "valuable" to anyone, has no such cultural background.
Very bad analogy, but can´t think of a better one right now:
- An anti-kilt-wearing Scot (in Scotland wearing kilts has a tradition, is valuable to many and means something to them) is different to an anti-kilt-wearing Austrian (where no one wants to wear a kilt anyway)
Top three going by pocket-time: Endura 4 in VG 10/Micarta-scales; Stretch 1 in VG 10; Endura 4 in HAP 40


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