Libre, Piper, and MBC

[Polecat]

Gang, with no disrespect meant, could you comment on these various systems. I am skeptical as a disclaimer, open minded, but with comments on the video like “ you take the eye” and then “take the face” seems like a lot of pomp and circumstance for what is basically shanking someone. Looks kind of esoteric. Meaning if you stab one in the eye, is it really necessary to strike the subclavian, then the caortid, spin them, around for a kidney strike....

Thanks,
Dave

[Cscottsss]

WTF

[Michael Janich]

Hey, Dave:

I agree with your assessment. What's most concerning to me is the fact that the vast majority of the online demonstrations of these systems reference attacking and do not put the techniques in the context of self-defense. Many are demonstrated on unarmed training partners. Even if your actions are justifiable (i.e., you are defending yourself against a viable threat of death or serious injury), they'll be harder to justify if they are questioned in court. The "work product"--the wound patterns--are also consistent with criminal attacks, not self-defense.

Stay safe,

Mike

[TazKristi]

Gang, with no disrespect meant, could you comment on these various systems. I am skeptical as a disclaimer, open minded, but with comments on the video like “ you take the eye” and then “take the face” seems like a lot of pomp and circumstance for what is basically shanking someone. Looks kind of esoteric. Meaning if you stab one in the eye, is it really necessary to strike the subclavian, then the caortid, spin them, around for a kidney strike....

Thanks,
Dave

Since this isn't specifically about Spyderco or our products, let's move this over to Off-Topic.

[Naperville]

Dave, I collect weapon system DVDs. DO YOU HAVE ANY LINKS TO THESE DVDs?

I've seen some Libre and Piper, and have a few MBC DVDs. I plan to purchase more MBC DVDs in 2021. Where can I buy the Libre and Piper DVDs so that I can see the entire system?

My take on any system is not that you will complete a full attack from a pattern "Target #1....through Target #10" it is that within the free style mayhem that breaks out, some targets or moves will open up targets. It may only take 3 strikes, and they drop....not the full 10.

I believe that is what they call Filipino Tapping Hands and you do see it in higher practitioners of kali, escrima and arnis. A guy that I used to train under showed it to me and it was a blistering array of strikes, and if you are not ready for it, it leaves you bewildered and a bit stunned...and it leaves them with several insertion points for an edged weapon.

[Naperville]

As I believe Michael Inay said, "It is not only knowing, but in the Knowing and Doing that you become an expert."

Michael Inay was the point man for turning Angel Cabales's system in to one that was teachable. He helped create the Cabales System Curriculum from what I've heard.

[Polecat]

Guys thanks for your insight. Mike, I think that kinda confirms what I thought. After this covid craziness, maybe you could coordinate an MBC course to coincide with blade here in the ATL?

[Naperville]

Guys thanks for your insight. Mike, I think that kinda confirms what I thought. After this covid craziness, maybe you could coordinate an MBC course to coincide with blade here in the ATL?

I'm not saying Mike is wrong. But I prefer Bruce Lee's vision for martial arts: USE WHAT WORKS. Or my version: STEAL WHAT WORKS AND MAKE IT YOUR OWN.

By the end of 2021:
- I probably will have more than 100 martial arts DVDs on kali, escrima, and arnis
- On my computer hard drives, I will have 1500+ videos (65GB+) of martial arts videos on kali, escrima, and arnis

When I first saw the MBC videos, I thought that they were brilliant, and still do. But I cannot study just one art. I've already been involved with a dozen, and everyone has a take on what a target is and how to get there.

I'm a student and will remain that way forever.

EDIT: Dan Inosanto who ran Bruce Lee's JKD school in LA, CA said Bruce Lee looked at JKD as each individuals path to personal enlightenment. Dan Inosanto was encouraged by Bruce Lee to study martial arts outside of the JKD school, and to not be bound to Filipino martial arts.

[Polecat]

Napierviile, likewise appreciate this invaluable insight. Recently was watching some evidenced based stuff where they pressure tested it. Evidenced based in that it looks at how “most” edged attacks occurred. Basically, strong side thrust, best defense was to parry out left...

I too agree in using what is useful, make it your own. Look at the recent bare knuckle sanctioned fights for example. These, at least for me, have changed my perspective a bit. With the bare knuckle, the guys don’t seem as ready to fist bump, they are more careful and measured. The traditional boxers do very well, as they are able to exploit angles, target better. This more like a fight as it may actually occur-kinda.

I guess looking at perhaps Libre and piper are best at offense, MBC at defense. Not discounting one or other.

Lastly to quote Mike Tyson, “everybody has a plan till you get punched in the face!”

Dave

[Michael Janich]

Hey, Naperville and Polecat:

Thank you for sharing your thoughts and insights.

I love the martial arts as well. From a martial arts perspective, I agree that you should remain open minded and explore as many systems as you can. However, in my opinion, you still need to have a clear set of standards for your evaluation.

In the 40+ years that I've been doing martial arts, I've trained in a lot of stuff that is fun, physically challenging, and culturally fascinating. I worked long and hard at doing jump spinning back kicks and spent countless hours practicing sword and dagger skills. Ultimately, however, I decided to focus on training for self-defense--specifically, self-defense that is applicable in today's world, to today's threats, and in the context of modern legal considerations. That set of standards is what currently governs my assessment of things.

For example, a lot of traditional FMA knife technique consists of disarming the attacker, either by "defanging the snake" or stripping the weapon, and then "finishing" him. Against a Spaniard a few hundred years ago or a Japanese soldier in WWII, that makes perfect sense, because it was a battlefield application. Even in the Filipino cultural context, it might be considered acceptable. Under modern American self-defense law, as soon as you disarm an attacker, he is no longer a lethal threat. If you "finish" him, you are using a lethal weapon against an unarmed person. Your claim of justifiable self-defense quickly degenerates into assault and attempted murder.

Knowing WHY you train is critical to structuring your training around the proper skills. If you're a tournament competitor, spending lots of training time on eye gouges and groin kicks doesn't make sense either.

Stay safe,

Mike

[Naperville]

I took a look at Piper yesterday, and it would only be useful in my opinion for feinting "Piper" and then using something such as MBC. Piper is not a martial art and (just my opinion here) it would be dangerous to use the arm twirling with a live blade.

I downloaded the Libre videos that I saw on their main YouTube portal, some 200 videos, and I'll look at them today. Not sure what I will find.

Mr Janich, in a perfect world, we would only use knives to open boxes and cut back weeds. Defensive knife is wonderful. I'm a news hound though as well as a basic prepper and basic survivalist. If I can score a full time gig in 2021(and moving forward), I'll probably save to go away to at least one survivalist retreat(NOLS, or tougher). I fear living WROL(without rule of law), and it is hard to tell where the world is going to be 1 year from now. That is the reason why I seek all of the information that I can, offensive and defensive knife. I don't think the world is at peace.

[Naperville]

I've only looked at 10 of the 200 videos that I've download on Libre but they seem like they are teaching reasonable entry level material.

I'd have no fear going up against a Liber or Piper practitioner based on the martial arts that I've studied. So far I have not seen them demonstrate any use of time or space for defense/offense against a knife, but maybe I have not come across the right video yet.

I'll report back after I've watched half of the videos.

[Naperville]

OK. I don't want to get in to any arguments with Piper or Libre students but I'll give what I think are the facts as I see them. These are new systems, they are not well rounded, and there may be some good points to practicing them, but there are MUCH better ways to spend your time.

Don't study either of these "systems." I don't know if they know what they are doing(I doubt it), but I think that they are pumping out knives and slick videos, and little else. Learn a well tested tried and true Filipino Martial Art, or as in the case of MBC is a descendant of Filipino Arts.


SEEK OUT INFO ON: LARGO MANO


I do recommend MBC. I've studied enough Filipino arts to understand what Mr Janich is doing and why.
https://www.martialbladeconcepts.com/

Also, seek out YouTube videos on Cabales Serrada, Giron Escrima, Bahala Na, Pekiti Tersia, SLD and Inayan

- Pekiti Tersia - SMF by Tim Waid
https://www.shopsmf.com/

- Stockton Multistyle (You can find Bahala Na video link below)
https://www.stocktonmultistyle.com/
https://em3video.com/giron-escrima-vol- ... ny-somera/

- BOBBY TABOADA - BALINTAWAK Escrima VOL. 1-2-3-4-5-6 SET ($200 on his website)

- Darren Tibon (Graduate of GM Angel Cabales) YES
- Mastering Serrada Escrima 12 Volume ($224 for 12 vol DVD on Amazon)

- FCS Kali - Ray Dionaldo

[nerdlock]

Nothing much to contribute here, except that "Bahala Na" means "Anything Goes" in our language which may translate into "freestyle". :)

[Polecat]

Again guys, appreciate the sage wisdom, advice, and diligence. Thanks for your candor and experienced insight.

Dave

[Naperville]

Nothing much to contribute here, except that "Bahala Na" means "Anything Goes" in our language which may translate into "freestyle". :)

Bahala Na, "Leave it up to God" from my understanding.

Piper and Libre may be martial arts systems in 250 years if they keep working at it. Libre seems to already be an amalgam of many different arts. I'm going to keep watching the FREE videos and I might even buy some videos, but you need a foundation built on reps....SLOW REPETITION.

People using a knife for offense or defense often cut themselves. It is not haphazard movement with the blade that get you through. It is careful and well thought out movement of your limbs and legs.

What you think is freestyle in an art that has been done for 250 years you will find in every practitioner of their art. Those who came before cut themselves or were cut in combat and the lessons have been passed down.

[Naperville]

I bought 1/2 the training system of Libre. Going to look more deeply in to it and see what I can borrow. If it looks good, I'll buy the rest of the videos.

[Jim Malone]

Looking at the piper "system" it looks like it's a really offensive style with a lot of, for me, weird moves. I see almost no defensive hand movements with the left hand guarding the chin and neck, i see a lot of unnecessary movements of the left hand in the vicinity of the live right hand, making it dangerous to stab yourself. I don't see arms tucked against their torso to "catch" a stab before it enters their thoracic cavity. I do like the reverse grip technique. It seems to be a stabby "stitching" system developed to inflict as much damage on an unarmed, or untrained, victim. It looks a simple system, few angles, but in it's simplicity lies it strength. Might be a nice thing to incorporate into you own hybrid system. Beter to have a simple flow with a few angles and fast movements but with a more defensive stance and "defanging the snake" capabilities because we as non predatory citizens can't rely on a purely offensive system. Once the BG is harmless our defensive tactics should stop. Plenty of shock and awe to ward of the attack but no ritualistic knife duels either. Just my 2 cents.

[shunsui]

Nothing much to contribute here, except that "Bahala Na" means "Anything Goes" in our language which may translate into "freestyle". :)

A well documented idea there:
https://youtu.be/NPqhm36sjVE

[Naperville]

I buy as many DVDs of renown martial arts as I can. If they're weird that's fine as long as I think the concept will allow me to win. They all have some benefit and most of them suffer from the same faults.

One thing that is common to most escrima, arnis, kali is that the instructor is practising on a willing participant and in real knife or hand to hand combat, that will not be the case.