Ladies On The Edge

[The Mastiff]

How come I thought they were joking but others didn't? Why aren't I offended? Is there something wrong with me?

Heh!

:)

[Bill1170]

My own experience is that fewer young Anglo men today work with their hands than did when I was in my 20’s. I’m 61 now. Manual work leads to practical/physical tool use, stuff like wrenches, hammers, and knives. Virtual work also leads to tool use, but the tools are different, such as smart devices, social media, computer hardware, and software programs.

The men and women I personally know who habitually carry a knife are mostly practical tool wielders or in close relationship with someone who works/plays with tools of the traditional type. Men and women who work more with computers and office tools have less interest or perceived need for tools to manipulate gross matter. They commonly lack the knowledge to use such tools correctly because their work and leisure activities don’t involve the use of such tools.

My wife is often the only woman in a group of women who can produce a folding knife when one is needed. When asked why she has a knife with her, she answers, “You can’t be married to Bill and not carry a knife!”

[OldHoosier62]

Okay, MAJOR disagreement with some opinions here.

But first, on-topic : I don't think it's surprising that more women are interested in knives. Outside of a few brands, I feel like the marketing and distribution of knives, be they pocket- or fixed, makes it easier for female customers to be interested in and want to participate in the hobby.
Some brands have finally decided to stop being clueless and deaf, and to no one's surprise, marketing knives as practical tools and not an extension of a man's masculinity actually draws a larger potential customer base !
Btw, thank you, Spyderco, for being so open about everything.

Related, and onto my other point : I cannot even begin to fathom how you guys, on such a welcoming forum, could assimilate a man not being tech-savvy, among other things, with being 'effeminate', a 'wimp', or a 'soy-boy'.
As a Gen Y kid, the opinion that 'men aren't what they used to be anymore' is revolting, especially coming from, well, a priori more experienced and mature people.
Is the fact that a man, now, doesn't want to replicate the clearly toxic behaviour of some of his priors so threatening ? Is it really this hard to accept that some people don't do or want to do what you did the same way ? Is it so disconcerting that being a 'man' IS different today from what it was even a decade ago ?

The sheer rottenness of this kind of behaviour is undescribable. I am no SJW, but I'll be damned if I'm shutting up on that one.
And before anyone gets up in arms about political correctness, that's not it. It's about being open-minded.

https://www.artofmanliness.com/articles ... ould-know/


I'm sorry but young men have changed, and not for the better. And FYI, it isn't about emulating "toxic" behaviors from the past. Boys and young men today by-and-large have very little ability to do "men things". (see the link above, I doubt you will find anything "toxic" on it). Their inability or unwillingness to carry or sharpen a knife is a minute indicator of the problems.

The terms you seem to object to may have been blunt and indelicate but honestly...they are correct. ....Simply put, "Hard times breed strong men, strong men bring about good times, good times breed weak men"....rinse, repeat. I am near 60, seriously medically impaired and still able to work most under 30 men into the ground and can't even get them to make interesting conversation while I do. It's sad. And don't assume I'm a neanderthal who only converses about girls, trucks and knives...2 Bachelors degrees and owned 2 businesses before my doctor enforced retirement.

I had more typed out but I actually like it here and don't wish to make Kristi give me a vacation. Have a nice life and feel free to put me on ignore if you'd like.

[ThomC]

https://www.artofmanliness.com/articles ... ould-know/


I'm sorry but young men have changed, and not for the better. And FYI, it isn't about emulating "toxic" behaviors from the past. Boys and young men today by-and-large have very little ability to do "men things". (see the link above, I doubt you will find anything "toxic" on it). Their inability or unwillingness to carry or sharpen a knife is a minute indicator of the problems.

The terms you seem to object to may have been blunt and indelicate but honestly...they are correct. ....Simply put, "Hard times breed strong men, strong men bring about good times, good times breed weak men"....rinse, repeat. I am near 60, seriously medically impaired and still able to work most under 30 men into the ground and can't even get them to make interesting conversation while I do. It's sad. And don't assume I'm a neanderthal who only converses about girls, trucks and knives...2 Bachelors degrees and owned 2 businesses before my doctor enforced retirement.

I had more typed out but I actually like it here and don't wish to make Kristi give me a vacation. Have a nice life and feel free to put me on ignore if you'd like.

I'll address your point later as I am on my way to work, but as a quick retort I don't think putting you on ignore would achieve anything. I've stated my opinion, and I wish to discuss it further. And boy, is there a lot to discuss.

[Evil D]

My mother carried a Kershaw Leek for probably the last 10 years of her life. She really liked the assisted opening because she didn't have to fumble around looking for a thumb stud or nail nick to open the blade. She did also like thumb holes but she wouldn't let me buy her a Spyderco because they were "too expensive for me".

[The Meat man]

https://www.artofmanliness.com/articles ... ould-know/


I'm sorry but young men have changed, and not for the better. And FYI, it isn't about emulating "toxic" behaviors from the past. Boys and young men today by-and-large have very little ability to do "men things". (see the link above, I doubt you will find anything "toxic" on it). Their inability or unwillingness to carry or sharpen a knife is a minute indicator of the problems.

The terms you seem to object to may have been blunt and indelicate but honestly...they are correct. ....Simply put, "Hard times breed strong men, strong men bring about good times, good times breed weak men"....rinse, repeat. I am near 60, seriously medically impaired and still able to work most under 30 men into the ground and can't even get them to make interesting conversation while I do. It's sad. And don't assume I'm a neanderthal who only converses about girls, trucks and knives...2 Bachelors degrees and owned 2 businesses before my doctor enforced retirement.

I had more typed out but I actually like it here and don't wish to make Kristi give me a vacation. Have a nice life and feel free to put me on ignore if you'd like.

Art of Manliness is a great site. They also have a podcast which is well worth listening too. As you pointed out, there is nothing toxic or objectionable about it at all.

[JD Spydo]

There are interesting differences I noticed quite some time ago about the girls who end up liking Spyderco or any other premium knife brand of knife. I immediately noticed the girls/ladies are more "color driven" than most of the guys are. It also seems like the ladies like novelty type blades like Spyderco's MOUSE, Dodo, Meerkat and Ladybug models for instance. When I got my first MOUSE & DODO models ( 2004 era) I was dating a gal at the time and she bugged me to no end until I made a deal with her on those two models ( of course I replaced them :D ). But it didn't stop there :rolleyes: over time any special design, unusual handle or non-conventional design that I would acquire she would end up wanting them as well.

There is no doubt that the ladies are different as to what they find interesting in knife designs. And I don't mean that to be negative in any way, shape or form. And I would be willing to bet that knife companies like Spyderco who make a lot of "one of a kind" type knives probably love it. Getting back to my main motivation for this thread is that the ladies are changing the commercial knife market right before our eyes. Oh it's only starting now but believe me in another 5 years or so you'll be seeing a completely different landscape in the knife market all together>> and that may be a good thing when it's all said and done.

Oh one other interesting item to consider>> if the girls have a certain Spyderco model that you want and you try to buy or trade with them to get it :rolleyes: well let's put it this way you are literally going to be mentally tortured before it's all over :D>> or you are going to be trading much higher than you thought to strike a deal :p

[TomAiello]

There are some interesting ideas here. I don't have a dog in this fight, but I do find it interesting.

- Fewer people in Europe and the USA are working with their hands than in previous generations

I agree that this is largely a negative. There is great value in being able to perform tasks yourself without hiring them out. It's not essential to survival, but it certainly makes life a lot easier/cheaper/more convenient. Overspecialization leads to overuse problems. For example, a person who can't recognize that their car needs oil, and put some into it, is more likely to do greater damage to their engine requiring much greater expense to repair. People who don't know how to change their oil are less likely to get their oil changed because of the inconvenience factor (it's easier to just walk out and do it than to remember to make an appointment, take the car in, etc). Many similar examples abound, including basic skills in areas like cooking, wiring, plumbing and carpentry.


- Older people tend to lament the loss of skills that were common in their generation

This is a generational constant. My great-grandfather probably lamented that my grandfather was a terrible fisherman (up to that point my family was entirely fisherman for several hundred years). My father probably wishes that my brother and I were better carpenters. I wish my kids had better coding skills. People develop the skills they find most useful or convenient in their situations. I agree that this sometimes leads them into weird dependencies where they can't 'fend for themselves' (like when I have to ask my daughter to show me how to change a setting on my phone).


- Some people seem to have the idea that manual competence (skill in tasks involving hands on labor) is somehow a masculine trait

I have no idea where this started, but I'm guessing it has to do with traditional gender roles. It's a generally silly idea though. Both males and females should be competent at a variety of tasks, and will find their lives easier because of them. I made my daughter learn to wire in plugs and light sockets, for example, not because I wanted her to be more masculine, but because I wanted her to be more competent. My wife made my daughter learn to change the oil in her car, again, not to make her more masculine, but because we felt that learning these basic skills was important to her functionality as an adult. If you want a skill that's not traditionally 'masculine' though, think about cooking. The ability to prepare basic meals from simple produce is a basic competency that many people lack, and the ability to do so is rarely stereotyped as 'masculine.' In our house, the ability to Google (well, YouTube mostly) to accomplish basic functional tasks (changing the locks and door handles in a vehicle is one recent example) is considered to be a basic survival skill. Basic competence means 'being able to figure out how to do it' and Youtube, it turns out, is one of the best resources ever created to enhance basic competence.


- Some people seem to have the idea that masculinity is somehow 'toxic' or in some way negative

This idea seems to have been generated by various social and political movements, translated into academia. The idea that masculinity (which is totally unrelated to competence in manual skills, in my opinion) is somehow negative or 'toxic' gets thrown around a lot. Gender roles are fascinating, sometimes useful, and often just plain fun. I really don't see how masculinity can be negative or 'toxic' any more than femininity can. You want to enjoy your own gender identity? Sounds like fun. But don't somehow think that other people doing exactly the same thing with their gender identity are somehow bad, or 'toxic'. They have just as much right to enjoy their personal gender characteristics as you do.


Honestly, I think you guys are talking past each other. The various ideas of manual competence and 'masculinity' being (sometimes poorly) expressed in this thread are so imprecise that they basically boil down to stereotypes. Maybe we can move beyond those stereotypes and express some ideas with more precision?

Being male isn't bad. Masculinity isn't bad. Being female isn't bad. Femininity isn't bad.

Even a lack of manual competence isn't really that bad--it just makes your life a lot more expensive and inconvenient. But if you can afford to pay other people to do simple things, good for you.

[TomAiello]

Simply put, "Hard times breed strong men, strong men bring about good times, good times breed weak men"....rinse, repeat.

An interesting quote that you may find as a counterpoint:

"I must study politics and war that my sons may have liberty to study mathematics and philosophy. My sons ought to study mathematics and philosophy, geography, natural history, naval architecture, navigation, commerce, and agriculture, in order to give their children a right to study painting, poetry, music, architecture, statuary, tapestry, and porcelain."

- John Adams

[James Y]

There are some interesting ideas here. I don't have a dog in this fight, but I do find it interesting.

- Fewer people in Europe and the USA are working with their hands than in previous generations

I agree that this is largely a negative. There is great value in being able to perform tasks yourself without hiring them out. It's not essential to survival, but it certainly makes life a lot easier/cheaper/more convenient. Overspecialization leads to overuse problems. For example, someone who can't recognize that their car needs oil, and put some into it, are more likely to do greater damage to their engine requiring much greater expense to repair. People who don't know how to change their oil are less likely to get their oil changed because of the inconvenience factor (it's easier to just walk out and do it than to remember to make an appointment, take the car in, etc). Many similar examples abound, including basic skills in areas like cooking, wiring, plumbing and carpentry.


- Older people tend to lament the loss of skills that were common in their generation

This is a generational constant. My great-grandfather lamented that my grandfather was a terrible fisherman (up to that point my family was entirely fisherman for several hundred years). My father probably wishes that my brother and I were better carpenters. I wish my kids had better coding skills. People develop the skills they find most useful or convenient in their situations. I agree that this sometimes leads them into weird dependencies where they can't 'fend for themselves' (like when I have to ask my daughter to show me how to change a setting on my phone).


- Some people seem to have the idea that manual competence (skill in tasks involving hands on labor) is somehow a masculine trait

I have no idea where this started, but I'm guessing it has to do with traditional gender roles. It's a generally silly idea though. Both males and females should be competent at a variety of tasks, and will find their lives easier because of them. I made my daughter learn to wire in plugs and light sockets, for example, not because I wanted her to be more masculine, but because I wanted her to be more competent. My wife made my daughter learn to change the oil in her car, again, not to make her more masculine, but because we felt that learning these basic skills was important to her functionality as an adult. If you want a skill that's not traditionally 'masculine' though, think about cooking. The ability to prepare basic meals from simple produce is a basic competency that many people lack, and the ability to do so is rarely stereotyped as 'masculine.' In our house, the ability to Google (well, YouTube mostly) to accomplish basic functional tasks (changing the locks and door handles in a vehicle is one recent example) is considered to be a basic survival skill. Basic competence means 'being able to figure out how to do it' and Youtube, it turns out, is one of the best resources ever created to enhance basic competence.


- Some people seem to have the idea that masculinity is somehow 'toxic' or in some way negative

This idea seems to have been generated by various social and political movements, translated into academia. The idea that masculinity (which is totally unrelated to competence in manual skills, in my opinion) is somehow negative or 'toxic' gets thrown around a lot. Gender roles are fascinating, sometimes useful, and often just plain fun. I really don't see how masculinity can be negative or 'toxic' any more than femininity can. You want enjoy your own gender identity? Sounds like fun. But don't somehow think that other people doing exactly the same thing with their gender identity are somehow bad, or 'toxic'. They have just as much right to enjoy their personal gender characteristics as you do.


Honestly, I think you guys are talking past each other. The various ideas of manual competence and 'masculinity' being (sometimes poorly) expressed in this thread are so imprecise that they basically boil down to stereotypes. Maybe we can move beyond those stereotypes and express some ideas with more precision?

Being male isn't bad. Masculinity isn't bad. Being female isn't bad. Femininity isn't bad.

Even a lack of manual competence isn't really that bad--it just makes your life a lot more expensive and inconvenient. But if you can afford to pay other people to do simple things, good for you.

Great post.

Jim

[odomandr]

There are some interesting ideas here. I don't have a dog in this fight, but I do find it interesting.

- Fewer people in Europe and the USA are working with their hands than in previous generations

I agree that this is largely a negative. There is great value in being able to perform tasks yourself without hiring them out. It's not essential to survival, but it certainly makes life a lot easier/cheaper/more convenient. Overspecialization leads to overuse problems. For example, someone who can't recognize that their car needs oil, and put some into it, are more likely to do greater damage to their engine requiring much greater expense to repair. People who don't know how to change their oil are less likely to get their oil changed because of the inconvenience factor (it's easier to just walk out and do it than to remember to make an appointment, take the car in, etc). Many similar examples abound, including basic skills in areas like cooking, wiring, plumbing and carpentry.


- Older people tend to lament the loss of skills that were common in their generation

This is a generational constant. My great-grandfather probably lamented that my grandfather was a terrible fisherman (up to that point my family was entirely fisherman for several hundred years). My father probably wishes that my brother and I were better carpenters. I wish my kids had better coding skills. People develop the skills they find most useful or convenient in their situations. I agree that this sometimes leads them into weird dependencies where they can't 'fend for themselves' (like when I have to ask my daughter to show me how to change a setting on my phone).


- Some people seem to have the idea that manual competence (skill in tasks involving hands on labor) is somehow a masculine trait

I have no idea where this started, but I'm guessing it has to do with traditional gender roles. It's a generally silly idea though. Both males and females should be competent at a variety of tasks, and will find their lives easier because of them. I made my daughter learn to wire in plugs and light sockets, for example, not because I wanted her to be more masculine, but because I wanted her to be more competent. My wife made my daughter learn to change the oil in her car, again, not to make her more masculine, but because we felt that learning these basic skills was important to her functionality as an adult. If you want a skill that's not traditionally 'masculine' though, think about cooking. The ability to prepare basic meals from simple produce is a basic competency that many people lack, and the ability to do so is rarely stereotyped as 'masculine.' In our house, the ability to Google (well, YouTube mostly) to accomplish basic functional tasks (changing the locks and door handles in a vehicle is one recent example) is considered to be a basic survival skill. Basic competence means 'being able to figure out how to do it' and Youtube, it turns out, is one of the best resources ever created to enhance basic competence.


- Some people seem to have the idea that masculinity is somehow 'toxic' or in some way negative

This idea seems to have been generated by various social and political movements, translated into academia. The idea that masculinity (which is totally unrelated to competence in manual skills, in my opinion) is somehow negative or 'toxic' gets thrown around a lot. Gender roles are fascinating, sometimes useful, and often just plain fun. I really don't see how masculinity can be negative or 'toxic' any more than femininity can. You want to enjoy your own gender identity? Sounds like fun. But don't somehow think that other people doing exactly the same thing with their gender identity are somehow bad, or 'toxic'. They have just as much right to enjoy their personal gender characteristics as you do.


Honestly, I think you guys are talking past each other. The various ideas of manual competence and 'masculinity' being (sometimes poorly) expressed in this thread are so imprecise that they basically boil down to stereotypes. Maybe we can move beyond those stereotypes and express some ideas with more precision?

Being male isn't bad. Masculinity isn't bad. Being female isn't bad. Femininity isn't bad.

Even a lack of manual competence isn't really that bad--it just makes your life a lot more expensive and inconvenient. But if you can afford to pay other people to do simple things, good for you.

Simply put, "Hard times breed strong men, strong men bring about good times, good times breed weak men"....rinse, repeat.

An interesting quote that you may find as a counterpoint:

"I must study politics and war that my sons may have liberty to study mathematics and philosophy. My sons ought to study mathematics and philosophy, geography, natural history, naval architecture, navigation, commerce, and agriculture, in order to give their children a right to study painting, poetry, music, architecture, statuary, tapestry, and porcelain."

- John Adams

Two great posts that I couldnt agree with more. Hopefully this redirects the conversation. my previous post was not even an attempt. sorry about that

[OldHoosier62]

Simply put, "Hard times breed strong men, strong men bring about good times, good times breed weak men"....rinse, repeat.

An interesting quote that you may find as a counterpoint:

"I must study politics and war that my sons may have liberty to study mathematics and philosophy. My sons ought to study mathematics and philosophy, geography, natural history, naval architecture, navigation, commerce, and agriculture, in order to give their children a right to study painting, poetry, music, architecture, statuary, tapestry, and porcelain."

- John Adams

I admire Adams sentiment and his high hope for a Utopian world view.....but....

Unfortunately Tom, human nature kicks in...there are always going to be wolves and therefore men should be versed in hunting them....be they 2 or 4 legged and called by another name. A man needs to know and be capable of doing man things. Today's youths cannot, and refuse to understand why it is needed.

****ADDED****We've allowed the watering down of our education system and its politicization, the almost complete obliteration of "shop" classes where young men (and young women) learn basic use of hand and power tools, troubleshooting/critical thinking aren't taught/stressed anymore. We are the country that put men on the moon with slide rules and today's generation can't change a tire, cook a meal from scratch with a recipe, interview for a job in person properly, cut up a chicken, ....the list goes on and on...and it gets more pathetic as it goes.

[The Mastiff]

You guys are much more patient. I simply refuse to engage with a generation me kid talking about toxic masculinity. There are always better things to do.

Joe

[TomAiello]

...human nature kicks in...there are always going to be wolves and therefore men should be versed in hunting them....be they 2 or 4 legged and called by another name. A man needs to know and be capable of doing man things. Today's youths cannot, and refuse to understand why it is needed.

I think that you are using the term 'man' generically to describe humans generally, and I tend to agree with you. I certainly want my daughters to be able to protect themselves from predators, human or otherwise. But my fondest wish is that they have easy lives where such self defense is unnecessary. That doesn't mean I don't think they should learn to protect themselves. Only that I hope they never have to use those particular skills.

[OldHoosier62]

...human nature kicks in...there are always going to be wolves and therefore men should be versed in hunting them....be they 2 or 4 legged and called by another name. A man needs to know and be capable of doing man things. Today's youths cannot, and refuse to understand why it is needed.

I think that you are using the term 'man' generically to describe humans generally, and I tend to agree with you. I certainly want my daughters to be able to protect themselves from predators, human or otherwise. But my fondest wish is that they have easy lives where such self defense is unnecessary. That doesn't mean I don't think they should learn to protect themselves. Only that I hope they never have to use those particular skills.

See my above added comments.....and you are definitely correct. I'm the father of a strong willed and very independent 16yo daughter. She has had a job since she was 15yo and makes her own money. She is currently doing online HS (since long before COVID because she hated the students who didn't care about learning taking up all the class time with rubbish) and college courses. She is a very capable young lady .

[OldHoosier62]

You guys are much more patient. I simply refuse to engage with a generation me kid talking about toxic masculinity. There are always better things to do.

Joe

Joe...believe me, I understand that sentiment. But I have a teenage daughter an end up dealing with her friends, both male and female, and I have no choice than to deal with their thought processes. And as I said in the other post, their ideas mostly come from teachers putting ideas in their heads instead of giving them both sides of a situation and using critical thinking to make a decision. Some I get through to, some at least start thinking about their decisions and the rest blindly follow their Pied Pipers.

[bearrowland]

I have 3 lady friends that have nicer collections of knives than I do!

[odomandr]

or you know three dudes with a better collection than a lady depending on who you ask

[The Mastiff]

Joe...believe me, I understand that sentiment. But I have a teenage daughter an end up dealing with her friends, both male and female, and I have no choice than to deal with their thought processes. And as I said in the other post, their ideas mostly come from teachers putting ideas in their heads instead of giving them both sides of a situation and using critical thinking to make a decision. Some I get through to, some at least start thinking about their decisions and the rest blindly follow their Pied Pipers.

I have a Gen Y son myself. He is 34 now. I'm very fortunate how he turned out as a person. He is about as decent a guy as I know and pretty down to earth. He will never be as large a knife and gun guy as I have been but that is OK. In fact he came over to have dinner and visit tonight. Yeah, I'm pretty lucky with mine also. :)

Joe

[Doc Dan]

I've noticed that those labeling "toxic masculine behaviors" are generally the ones that are toxic. Not always, mind you, but most of the time. Is this an excuse? Is it a cop out?

Let me go further, I notice that when women adopt a certain in style way of speaking, it does not take long for the young men to begin to imitate their speech patterns.

Is it possible that this is all the result of men wanting to please women and (falsely) thinking they are making themselves more attractive? I do not know. What I do know is that changes are observable and not always for the better.