Martial Arts Experiences Discussion Thread

[James Y]

Funny you mention training kids. I just picked up a Century Kid Kick and used it to teach some kickboxing basics to the neighborhood kids. Showed them the basics of a boxing stance, how to throw a jab and a 1-2, then showed them basic kicks.

Also used a pool noodle to work on their defense. Was a fun evening for everyone.

The Kid Kick also works ok for me to practice low kicks. I can't practice leg kicks on my heavy bag, and muay thai bags have been hard to find lately.

Sounds great, vivi! You may have lit a spark in some of them.

As far as Muay Thai bags, I wonder if most of them get snatched up by all the ubiquitous MMA gyms. Although I’m not certain how many would be open right now, or for the past several months.

I have a setup in my back yard to hang my heavy bag (I only take it outside and hang it up when I‘m using it). Using the chain, I can adjust the height and practice low kicks if I wanted to. However, due to a nagging injury, I haven’t been training much kicking at all lately. Striking-wise, I’ve mostly been hitting a training dummy.

Jim

[James Y]

This Silat practitioner in Indonesia (and the people she trains with) is hardcore in the extreme. I‘m a bit dubious of her claims of training the ‘horse stance’ for 3 to 5 hours at a time, but who knows. It’s clear that she’s really doing what she claims, in terms of extreme body toughening. She also has excellent speed and perfect form in her techniques. It’s clear that martial arts is her livelihood, because from the looks of it, it’s all she does. This, of course, allows her almost unlimited time for training (and producing videos).

Would I want to do what they do? Not at all. Although what they do looks like it develops very real results for them (and nobody should try this stuff unsupervised), I wonder how much of a toll that extreme training is taking on the body over time. Maybe they will be fine (I do hope so). I’ve had experience with 80 year old kung fu masters banging forearms with me, and they still had real power, and their arms were still amazingly hard and tough. But the shin area is different, especially to the degree shown in these videos. I hope these Silat practitioners also use some type of proper training liniment/medication. Because if you’re not careful, it’s not uncommon for some things that you practiced with ease in your younger years to come back and bite you when you get older.

The best thing I take away from watching videos like this is for times when I need a little extra motivation for my own training. My art and my training methods are different from theirs, and my training has had to evolve over the years; I’m 57, and I no longer do some of the stuff I practiced back in my 20s and 30s. I’m also placing more emphasis on certain other aspects of martial arts than I did before. But you can draw inspiration from many different sources, if you’re open-minded. Motivation and passion can be infectious, regardless of the ‘style’ or method, and you can apply that motivation for whatever it is that you do.

https://youtu.be/eBrsJkbOs6Y

Jim

[VashHash]

Horse stance is the basis of all martial arts. Without horse stance you have nothing.

On a more serious note Mark Dacascos has a lot of experience in horse stance. Also a very interesting journey that leads back to horse stance. Jump to about 7:00 and 16:40 for horse stance. If you have the time it's a really good interview.

https://youtu.be/ygvdRXCwFoQ

[James Y]

Horse stance is the basis of all martial arts. Without horse stance you have nothing.

On a more serious note Mark Dacascos has a lot of experience in horse stance. Also a very interesting journey that leads back to horse stance. Jump to about 7:00 and 16:40 for horse stance. If you have the time it's a really good interview.

https://youtu.be/ygvdRXCwFoQ

You are very right. Thanks for posting that. And you know what? Mark Dacascos is another child of martial artists that had totally slipped my mind as someone who became very, very good. And I should have remembered, because my Choy Lee Fut Kung Fu teacher knew his father, Al Dacascos, very well back in the ‘70s.

As far as horse stance, or more appropriately horse riding stance, all of my TCMA (traditional Chinese martial arts) teachers placed a heavy emphasis on stance development. The longest I’ve held the full “square horse stance” (the most basic ) without coming up or changing position was 40 minutes, and that was only a few times. Mostly it was from 5 to 15, and sometimes 20 minutes in the one position. Most people can barely even do one minute. There are other stances, too (I’m simplifying the names): forward stance, hanging stance (cat stance), twist stance, golden rooster (one-legged crane stance), etc., that also need to be held on each side for periods of time (but not as long as the basic horse stance). It wasn’t uncommon to take most of an hour on just holding stances alone in my training. Then there was transitional footwork training, so as not to develop only static power.

My statement in my last post about being dubious regarding the Silat practitioner’s horse stance training was about her saying she holds (or practices) just the horse stance for 3 to 5 hours at a time. I took her meaning to be that she holds the position without coming up for that amount of time. Maybe she can do it (many amazing things are possible and do happen in this world), but that would make her the only person I’ve ever heard of who can do that. During their developmental stages, many of the old-time masters had to hold their horse stance, without coming up out of it, for the length of the burning of an incense stick, reportedly about 45 minutes. Which is amazing, especially in these modern times, but still not close to 3 to 5 hours.

The first Kung Fu teacher I had in Taiwan, who taught Northern Tanglang (Mantis), told us his entire first year of training was only stances (his training began at age 10 in 1925, in China’s Shandong Province). He was a live-in disciple of his teacher, who was not above beating students for laziness or disobedience. But even he never claimed to hold his horse stance for 3 to 5 hours at a time. He practiced them throughout the day, in addition to all of his daily chores as a live-in student. After his first year, he began learning movements; only one new movement per month for years; and if at month’s end he hadn’t perfected the last movement and its applications to his teacher’s satisfaction, he had to wait another month to be taught the next technique. Of course, he couldn’t have taught that way himself; he never would have kept any students.

Jim

[VashHash]

My first introduction to Mark was actually American samurai back in the 90s and double dragons. American samurai made a huge impression on me as a kid. Of course being a kid I enjoyed double dragons too. I used to play the video game and watch the cartoon. I have a lot of respect for Mark and watching that video made me respect him even more. I like seeing actual martial artist make it as opposed to actors faking it. I've recently been trying to watch all of Mark's movies and Scott's as well. I'd like to see them together since neither are getting any younger.

My take on martial arts is this. It's not the art, it's the artist. I don't think any style is really better than any other. It just depends how you use it and you're mentality and capacity for violence.

[James Y]

My first introduction to Mark was actually American samurai back in the 90s and double dragons. American samurai made a huge impression on me as a kid. Of course being a kid I enjoyed double dragons too. I used to play the video game and watch the cartoon. I have a lot of respect for Mark and watching that video made me respect him even more. I like seeing actual martial artist make it as opposed to actors faking it. I've recently been trying to watch all of Mark's movies and Scott's as well. I'd like to see them together since neither are getting any younger.

My take on martial arts is this. It's not the art, it's the artist. I don't think any style is really better than any other. It just depends how you use it and you're mentality and capacity for violence.

My favorite Mark Dacascos films are Brotherhood of the Wolf and Only the Strong. I also saw him on the long-defunct TV series Martial Law in a fight against Sammo Hung. A few years back, I saw him on an episode of Chicago PD. He’s worked on a lot of films and shows over the years, but it’s unfortunate that he never became the big mainstream action star that he should have. IMO, he was better, far more versatile, and far more likable onscreen than Van Damme, Seagal, or even Norris ever were. Maybe Hollywood considered him “too ethnic” to rise beyond a certain status. Which, if that WAS the case, is everyone’s loss. However, fortunately he has had a successful career in spite of that.

There are no superior martial arts, only superior individual practitioners within each art. Some arts are more suited to certain situations than others, but all have their strong points, and it depends on how they are taught and practiced. Even more important are the individual practitioners themselves.

Jim

[The Mastiff]

Working as a cop then as a CO in a all felon 18-25 year old male prison I was on the very small side at around 5'10" and a muscular 204 lbs. No question Jujitsu was what helped me. They really got on us ( me mainly) after the 80's about choke and strangle holds and those were my bread and butter. Trying to handle human monsters without shooting them or beating them to death had me really relying on chokes. Lets say I got inventive with my wording on the paperwork. :) They never actually tried to write me up though. By the late 90's things had changed and we had a different supt. who really didn't seem to care about his employees welfare and about then they brought in Akido training. Armbars, wristlocks, etc. Great stuff if you are extremely proficient but worthless with only 40-60 hours training. It was looked at as more of a way to cover the state. If a guard hurt someone they could then do him in because he had training and etc.... I've been in courts enough to see how it works. Not something I wanted to have to defend. I had to get more cautious in my actions. Strangely we could shoot them easier than we could beat them up provided the reasons were legal.

Most inmates were somewhere in the past trained in boxing, wrestling, some had military training but pretty much all knew how to strike from behind and knew all about the importance of initiative. Fortunately it was rare that they were actually trying to harm/murder us. Rage attacks were fairly common but calm preplanned murder attempts very much less so. Mostly it was the usual bad guy looking around to see how alone you are and deciding the odds. That's the same as the street mugger approach. When you see them look you in the eye, look around then back to you, know they are coming. Not much you can do except try to salvage whatever initiative you can and realize there is nothing to gain by not fighting back. :)

If you are a martial artist, excellent. If you have broken through whatever inhibitions about hurting someone you still have, better yet. Pretty much all martial arts are better than none but that is only the beginning. I recall back to some of my first real scary incidents. I remember throwing a guy who was trying to get me in a chokehold and like in class when he went down I pulled the kick and went back into a horse stance. That allowed him to restart the attack much wiser. Especially the first time don't be surprised if you do foolish stuff. Hopefully you learn from it. Doing anything though is usually better than than doing nothing. Really. :)

[James Y]

Working as a cop then as a CO in a all felon 18-25 year old male prison I was on the very small side at around 5'10" and a muscular 204 lbs. No question Jujitsu was what helped me. They really got on us ( me mainly) after the 80's about choke and strangle holds and those were my bread and butter. Trying to handle human monsters without shooting them or beating them to death had me really relying on chokes. Lets say I got inventive with my wording on the paperwork. :) They never actually tried to write me up though. By the late 90's things had changed and we had a different supt. who really didn't seem to care about his employees welfare and about then they brought in Akido training. Armbars, wristlocks, etc. Great stuff if you are extremely proficient but worthless with only 40-60 hours training. It was looked at as more of a way to cover the state. If a guard hurt someone they could then do him in because he had training and etc.... I've been in courts enough to see how it works. Not something I wanted to have to defend. I had to get more cautious in my actions. Strangely we could shoot them easier than we could beat them up provided the reasons were legal.

Most inmates were somewhere in the past trained in boxing, wrestling, some had military training but pretty much all knew how to strike from behind and knew all about the importance of initiative. Fortunately it was rare that they were actually trying to harm/murder us. Rage attacks were fairly common but calm preplanned murder attempts very much less so. Mostly it was the usual bad guy looking around to see how alone you are and deciding the odds. That's the same as the street mugger approach. When you see them look you in the eye, look around then back to you, know they are coming. Not much you can do except try to salvage whatever initiative you can and realize there is nothing to gain by not fighting back. :)

If you are a martial artist, excellent. If you have broken through whatever inhibitions about hurting someone you still have, better yet. Pretty much all martial arts are better than none but that is only the beginning. I recall back to some of my first real scary incidents. I remember throwing a guy who was trying to get me in a chokehold and like in class when he went down I pulled the kick and went back into a horse stance. That allowed him to restart the attack much wiser. Especially the first time don't be surprised if you do foolish stuff. Hopefully you learn from it. Doing anything though is usually better than than doing nothing. Really. :)

Thanks for sharing your experiences and insights, Joe.

Jim

[James Y]

Vintage 1912 Judo Demonstration.

https://youtu.be/q0baVsOO3F0

Jim

[The Mastiff]

Thanks for sharing your experiences and insights

Thank you Jim. Those old Judo videos are worth watching. Many think of the olympic sport but looking at those videos it's plain we are seeing a practiced method for destroying the use of those limbs. In reality it's very brutal and when done for real the pain felt is horrible. I've seen live the results of broken limbs and destroyed joints that need surgery and rehab to regain function. The only thing that gets attention faster and more completely is shutting off a persons air. They stop all other actions and plans and think only of regaining air. Some gunshots don't work as well at stopping a person. When a person says "I can't breathe" it's not a real complete chokehold. A real stranglehold means the person can still talk but if done properly they lose consciousness in 2 to 5 seconds tops. When I was back in MP school in 79 we did these moves on each other for real over and over again. Some convulse when regaining consciousness from the strangleholds. Back then that was the 3rd step on the use of force ladder before even punches, kicks, and then next sticks/batons with the last being firearms. first step was a verbal order, second was just grabbing a persons arm or similar. Yes we could go directly to whatever step was needed as long as we could make the paperwork make sense.

[James Y]

Thanks for sharing your experiences and insights

Thank you Jim. Those old Judo videos are worth watching. Many think of the olympic sport but looking at those videos it's plain we are seeing a practiced method for destroying the use of those limbs. In reality it's very brutal and when done for real the pain felt is horrible. I've seen live the results of broken limbs and destroyed joints that need surgery and rehab to regain function. The only thing that gets attention faster and more completely is shutting off a persons air. They stop all other actions and plans and think only of regaining air. Some gunshots don't work as well at stopping a person. When a person says "I can't breathe" it's not a real complete chokehold. A real stranglehold means the person can still talk but if done properly they lose consciousness in 2 to 5 seconds tops. When I was back in MP school in 79 we did these moves on each other for real over and over again. Some convulse when regaining consciousness from the strangleholds. Back then that was the 3rd step on the use of force ladder before even punches, kicks, and then next sticks/batons with the last being firearms. first step was a verbal order, second was just grabbing a persons arm or similar. Yes we could go directly to whatever step was needed as long as we could make the paperwork make sense.

Joe,

The first martial art I studied was Judo, way back in the early ‘70s. Most of my male relatives did it at least for a while. The dojo I trained at and the head sensei were very old, and although throws were the main focus, ground grappling was very much a part of it. It bore little resemblance to the Olympic Judo you see today. It was taught as both a sport AND a martial art. Much later, after 2K, when I did BJJ for a year in my 40s, the floor work wasn’t too dissimilar to the Judo floor work I’d experienced as a kid, except in BJJ it was the whole emphasis. In Judo, I always liked the Hadaka Jime (rear naked choke).

Also back then, our next door neighbor was a female cop who lived alone. She was short, stocky, and tough. She once showed me how she had to use her sleeper hold on a violent guy on PCP, who, when she pulled up on scene, was overpowering a fellow cop and a truck driver, who had already struck the man with a tire iron in self-defense, to no effect. She came up behind him and was able to apply the choke. She took him down and said he went out pretty quickly, and wet his pants.

I only had to choke a guy out in a “fight“ once, back in the mid-to-late ‘90s, and the whole thing was stupid. It was actually during training. We were paired up, slowly practicing a new pre-set series of moves, and the guy just hauled off and punched me (we had open-fingered gloves on) square in the face full-force out of left field (not even what we were practicing), and then attempted to elbow my head against the floor when I was down. I was so mad I went for his eyeball with a thumb, but missed and hit right next to the corner of his eye with my thumbnail; then I bucked him off, took his back, and choked him out (it wasn’t a grappling martial art we were practicing). He kinda jerked once and started snoring loudly. I shoved his head away and got up. The teacher was quietly watching and calmly said, “Okay. Let’s get back to work now.” We just left him laying on his side on the wooden floor. That student (who was my senior in the class) had some kind of mental problems, because I wasn’t the first person in the group he’d done dirty stuff like that to during training. But I was the only one who ever “got him back” for it. When he woke up several seconds later, he hadn’t even realized he’d been choked out. But he had a welt next to his eye for some time afterwards. I never paired up with him again, and few people in the class were willing to work with him anyway. He never apologized, and neither did I. Even so, I’m glad I didn’t get his eye.

Jim

[The Mastiff]

Best thing you could do for a meathead like that. Pain can be a great teacher. If he doesn't learn from it something is seriously wrong with him. People like that can really mess up the experience for other students so I'd warn him then kick him out if I was the teacher.

I recall a guy on PCP who was ramming his head into the cell wall so hard we had to restrain him to keep him from killing himself. It never looks good to have people die in your cells due to massive head trauma. :o Even if it is on film like most places now. Once in custody it's the responsibility of the people in charge to protect people even from themselves. I know no cops or EMT's that liked dealing with people on PCP. Lots of officers get hurt doing that because even pain compliance might not work and it takes a bunch of people to restrain them without damaging them. We had guys on each arm and leg and one making sure the head and neck was safe all the while trying to avoid bites and spitting and everything else they throw your way. They are usually slimed by blood, spit, vomit and sweat and everything else and not fun to grab a hold of. :eek:

[James Y]

Best thing you could do for a meathead like that. Pain can be a great teacher. If he doesn't learn from it something is seriously wrong with him. People like that can really mess up the experience for other students so I'd warn him then kick him out if I was the teacher.

I recall a guy on PCP who was ramming his head into the cell wall so hard we had to restrain him to keep him from killing himself. It never looks good to have people die in your cells due to massive head trauma. :o Even if it is on film like most places now. Once in custody it's the responsibility of the people in charge to protect people even from themselves. I know no cops or EMT's that liked dealing with people on PCP. Lots of officers get hurt doing that because even pain compliance might not work and it takes a bunch of people to restrain them without damaging them. We had guys on each arm and leg and one making sure the head and neck was safe all the while trying to avoid bites and spitting and everything else they throw your way. They are usually slimed by blood, spit, vomit and sweat and everything else and not fun to grab a hold of. :eek:

Yeah, that’s scary stuff, Joe.

There are also some people who, for whatever reasons, are virtually immune to pain, whether because they’re insane, high, in a rage, their adrenalin is at full blast, or they like pain. They can be injured; they just don’t register it the same way as a normal person would. Personally, as a non-LEO, I would never want to have to rely on pain-compliance techniques for SD. Many people think that if something hurts during practice that it will affect an attacker in the same manner, which isn’t necessarily going to be true.

I’ve heard of an incident where a guy stabbed another guy literally DOZENS of times with a fixed-blade knife, trying to get him and his buddies to stop following and attacking him, and the guy he was stabbing and cutting wasn’t intimidated nor discouraged. Supposedly it happened at some house party. I don’t recall if the guy he stabbed ended up dying or not, but the stabber did spend time in prison for it (he was no angel himself at the time).

Jim

[James Y]

Tai Chi demo and training film from 1937.

I really like old vintage martial arts footage. What sets this one apart for me are the cool training devices shown; one a suspended stick (starting at 4:52),, and the other, a suspended Tai Chi ball, (starting at 5:57):

https://youtu.be/akG8iMNWBfc

Jim

[James Y]

Back in 1982, I attended a week-long kickboxing seminar in Irvine, CA, with Bill “Superfoot” Wallace. The class was limited to no more than 20 participants, so everyone in the group got the benefit of Wallace’s personal attention. It was 8 hours a day (4 hours in the morning and four more in the afternoon) of grueling training and sparring, but he joked to keep it fun, too. In person, his kicks and punches seemed much faster and even more impressive than they appeared on camera, like in the two videos below.

That 1982 seminar was only 3 months after Bill Wallace had discovered comedian John Belushi (for whom he had acted as personal trainer and sometimes-bodyguard to), dead at the Chateau Marmont in Hollywood. Wallace was the man who had discovered the body. During a break in the training, some ‘genius’ in the class decided to ask him a question about finding Belushi, to which Wallace answered that he wasn’t going to discuss it, and legally he couldn’t, anyway.

Another student asked him what it was like with Elvis, which he did talk about. Elvis had ‘saved’ Wallace’s legendary left leg kicking ability when Wallace injured it and was told he would never kick again (his right knee had already been ruined years before in a Judo accident). Elvis brought in an acupuncturist, which Wallace didn’t believe in, and the acupuncturist cured his left leg and made Wallace a believer in acupuncture. Wallace then began an association with Elvis. He said that at one point, Elvis (probably high on something) did a sudden, surprise kick into Wallace’s groin (caught in a photo at 0:23 in the first video) to “test” his toughness. Of course, Wallace said it hurt like ****. but he remained standing. Elvis then gave Wallace a certificate (HE gave WALLACE a certificate??). Wallace said that afterwards, he was so mad that he took the signed certificate Elvis had given him and threw it in the trash.

It was an honor for me to have had the opportunity to spar Bill Wallace at the seminar. Everyone who wanted to spar with him got the opportunity. We were of similar height. I was only 19, but my face looked even younger, and Wallace went fairly easy on me. Still, it was an awesome experience to spar an undefeated world champion, who was still at or near his physical peak in 1982. Famous for his left leg kicks, IMO, Wallace was an underrated puncher. I was more concerned about his jab and left hook than his left leg kicks. Wallace has made his living off of seminars for decades, so although he wouldn’t remember that seminar, I always will.

https://youtu.be/iNDbQ7FK1nw

Highlights from some of his fights:

https://youtu.be/NbXU6JuEXBs

Jim

[James Y]

ARROGANCE IS DANGEROUS.

Which is one of the reasons that, ideally, martial artists are (or should be) taught to have a humble attitude. Unfortunately, true humbleness seems rare, especially nowadays. Whether in TMA (so-called “traditional” martial arts) or modern MMA, or if it’s one of the many modern self-defense/combatives methods.

Years ago, I was participating in a discussion on another forum with an MMA trainer. Another participant brought up the idea of knives in a real encounter. The MMA trainer stated that “If anybody tries to pull his little pen knife on me, I’ll just take it away from him and spank him.” Well, maybe that’s happened somewhere in the world, but I wouldn’t count on it. A local MMA practitioner here was stabbed to death in a parking lot fight outside of a bar. Reportedly, he never even saw the knife that stabbed him over a dozen times from underneath, as he was grappling with his opponent. His opponent was untrained.

The video below, from Brazil back in 2013, shows how stupidity and arrogance can come back and bite you, big-time. In it, two professional MMA fighters, Maiquel Falcao and Kaue Mena, who had good MMA records but bad attitudes (or at least Falcao had an attitude), were KO’d with a 2X4 and further beaten by a group of untrained men, after Maiquel Falcao assaulted a woman after she refused his sexual advances in a gas station. Apparently, the other men were relatives of the woman. At first, the MMA guys did OK when it began as a fist fight. But it quickly escalated into STREET COMBAT, which is a whole other animal. Falcao was KO’d, but Kaue Mena was beaten into a coma. The news report is in Portuguese, but it’s easy to see what happened on the security footage. I’m sure these two guys thought they could handle anything, anywhere, because of their cage fighting experience and records. They were certainly better than your ‘average’ MMA competitor, and WAY better than any part-time, recreational MMA or TMA practitioners; yet they got in way over their heads. Ridiculously, Maiquel Falcao was wearing his own MMA merchandise T-shirt with his name emblazoned on it.

Note: I’m not posting this as a put-down of MMA. I’m posting it because it is a prime example of the consequences of stupidity and arrogance, regardless of how “bad” and well-trained you may be (or think you are). Street combat is not a “style vs style” contest. People aren’t necessarily going to play by the rules you think they should. Nobody is invincible or immune, and ANYBODY can end up in over their heads, if they’re not careful. That is why modesty/humbleness serves a very practical purpose.

https://youtu.be/UzOhwRPApcs

Jim

[The Mastiff]

Wow! It looks like they brought that on themselves. I've often wondered how many people have been killed or just beaten just for being rude. :)

Joe

[James Y]

Professor Hideichi Nagaoka and his students demonstrating Judo (Jiu-Jitsu) in New York, 1934.

Note: The names ‘Judo’ and ‘Jiu-Jitsu’ were often used interchangeably for Judo, probably until post-WWII. The fact is, Kano’s Judo was a ‘modernized’ form of Jiu-Jitsu anyway, which allowed for harder, but safer, practice. Early Judo included floor grappling as well as some striking/kicking (atemi); notice the striking demonstrated at the beginning. The dojo I studied Judo at in the 1970s also emphasized a good amount of floor grappling, as well as a very limited amount of atemi (striking and kneeing). The striking techniques were only taught for ‘self-defense’, and were not incorporated into the randori (free-style). Later, many sport and/or Olympic-oriented Judo schools deemphasized or deleted some of these aspects.

https://youtu.be/Y0nvEi-sKLA

Jim

[James Y]

Boxe Francaise (Savate) exhibition, from 1896:

https://youtu.be/uedqehuzYdA

Boxe Francaise (Savate) demonstration, from 1924, featuring Charles Charlemont (1862 - 1944):

https://youtu.be/fZ6AN8xOWv0

Jim

[James Y]

Performances of Indonesian Silat at a wedding in Java,1913:

https://youtu.be/XfKKxERC5aQ

Jim