Martial Arts Experiences Discussion Thread

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Re: Martial Arts Experiences Discussion Thread

#781

Post by James Y »

Naperville wrote:
Fri Apr 22, 2022 5:15 pm
Lee Morrison (Urban Combatives) also covers the use of elbows.

Yeah, IMO, Lee Morrison is one of the best in the field of modern combatives.

I've seen a few combatives instructors who include elbow strikes that (coincidentally) work very similarly to the Bajiquan Ding Zhou, mostly from the head covering position.

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Re: Martial Arts Experiences Discussion Thread

#782

Post by Naperville »

James Y wrote:
Fri Apr 22, 2022 7:17 pm
Naperville wrote:
Fri Apr 22, 2022 5:15 pm
Lee Morrison (Urban Combatives) also covers the use of elbows.

Yeah, IMO, Lee Morrison is one of the best in the field of modern combatives.

I've seen a few combatives instructors who include elbow strikes that (coincidentally) work very similarly to the Bajiquan Ding Zhou, mostly from the head covering position.

Jim
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Re: Martial Arts Experiences Discussion Thread

#783

Post by James Y »

The Mike Tyson Airplane Incident

(Video below)

This has been all over the news the past few days. A drunk passenger, who had just taken a photo with Mike Tyson, then became obnoxious and began harassing him. According to Tyson, the passenger had also thrown a water bottle at him. Finally, Tyson had had enough, and roughed the punk up a bit. Fortunately for the punk, Mike Tyson wasn't using anything near full force. Otherwise, he'd have REALLY gotten hurt, instead of only scuffed up. In his mid-to-late 50s, Mike Tyson's punching speed and power are still fully intact.

Unfortunately for Tyson, he is now facing legal problems. Reportedly, the other passenger, who also has a criminal record, is planning to sue Mike Tyson for assault. I'm wondering if that was his plan all along; to have his friend take a video of him harassing Mike Tyson, getting punched in retaliation, and then get rich by suing him with the video as evidence. It sure looks and sounds like it (listen to the BS the guy taking the video spouts throughout the video, especially at the end of it). It looks like a setup to me.

This is a perfect example of why you should only use physical violence as a very last resort; when there are no other options. Obviously, Mike Tyson had other options. He could have reported it to the staff, instead of taking things into his own hands. Now, it's a big possibility that this stupid, useless piece of human garbage will end up getting a large sum of money for being a total DB.

Mike Tyson is an intelligent man, and as he's gotten older, he has generally shown a great deal of restraint around obnoxious guys. So this is a lesson for all of us.

Self-control in life is paramount. You cannot allow your emotions to dictate your actions. It ain't always easy, but a lack of self-control, especially nowadays, with smart phones and security cameras everywhere, will result in legal consequences. It's all too easy for someone to trick you into a legal quagmire. Imagine it happening to you, without you having the financial (and legal) resources that Mike Tyson has.

IMO, in a perfect world, this idiot would have gotten what he deserved, and that would be that. Unfortunately, that's not the way the world works. Lawyers will be salivating at the opportunity to represent this punk against Mike Tyson.

https://youtu.be/V3C4pWwDqps

Jim
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Re: Martial Arts Experiences Discussion Thread

#784

Post by James Y »

Here are a couple videos of women displaying outstanding Tae Kwon Do-style kicks. The videos claim each one to be "the world's fastest kicker," but it's a big world, and there are many extremely fast kickers out there, from all styles.

Both women display excellent power, accuracy, and balance in their kicks. The second video is clearly sped up in parts, and edited in such a way as to make the woman's kicks appear faster. These kicking demos are refreshing to see; compared to decades past, nowadays, there are relatively few martial artists who machine their kicks to perfection anymore. You won't find this level of kicking technique in your typical, current-day American kiddie-centric Mcdojo or Mcdojang.

https://youtube.com/shorts/pGmMvOZ2amE?feature=share

https://youtube.com/shorts/IQ0Z6tjC3NU?feature=share

To this day, the fastest kicker I've ever seen (and faced in sparring) was one of my grand teachers in Taiwan, Zhang Kezhi. His styles were Hung Gar and Zui Ba Xian (Drunken 8 Immortals), which he taught to my late Sifu, Peng Han-Ping. Zhang is old and fat now, but back in the day, he had the quickest, most sudden and explosive kicks I've ever seen or been hit by. And he was about 50 at the time. I was a fast kicker myself back then, but his explosive speed was on another level. As with hand strikes and weapons, the tiniest fraction of a second can make all the difference. He could control his right leg like a third arm. His kicks weren't flashy, just basic kicks that were honed to perfection. The non-telegraphed speed and explosiveness of Zhang's kicks was comparable to those of Bruce Lee, and I do not say this lightly.

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Re: Martial Arts Experiences Discussion Thread

#785

Post by Naperville »

Those ladies can really kick. You never want to square up against anyone within arm or leg length....stand beyond their range unless you are ready to get waylaid!
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Re: Martial Arts Experiences Discussion Thread

#786

Post by James Y »

Naperville wrote:
Sun Apr 24, 2022 7:06 pm
Those ladies can really kick. You never want to square up against anyone within arm or leg length....stand beyond their range unless you are ready to get waylaid!


Very true. Not only are their kicks really good, but even more, they kick with focus and intent.

One interesting thing about many (BUT NOT ALL!) high-kicking specialists is that oftentimes, it’s better to close the distance on them and fight them in-close. Many pure kicking specialists have difficulty fighting at arm’s length or closer. MMA (and cross-training in general outside of MMA) has changed a lot of that, but there are still many Tae Kwon Do and similar kickers who don’t like opponents penetrating their kicking range and getting close to them. Many spend most or all of their training time kicking and dealing with kicks, and spend very little time on developing hand techniques and defenses against them. While someone is high kicking, they’re standing on one leg, so balance and mobility are momentarily compromised; the leg can get caught; the support leg can be swept; and the groin is also exposed and open to attack, depending on the rules you’re going by.

Every skill set has its strengths and its vulnerabilities.

I have seen instances of high kicks working on the street; one video a few years ago from Eastern Europe or somewhere, showed a street fight between a bodybuilder and a smaller “MMA fighter,” who ended up killing the bodybuilder with a single spinning hook kick to the head. I’ve also seen instances where they failed. For myself, I only ever used high kicks in sparring and competitive fighting (and demonstrations). You don’t really want to be reckless on the street with kicks, especially high kicks, and they are difficult or impossible to use in confined spaces, and under certain conditions (slippery or rocky ground, in water, snow, etc.).

But like anything else, if you are facing an elite-level kicker, don’t play to their strengths. Don’t trade kicks with a kicker; don’t box with a boxer; don’t leg kick, clinch, or trade knees and elbows with a Muay Thai practitioner; don’t play ‘sticky hands’ with a Wing Chun or other southern Kung Fu short-hand specialist; don’t wrestle with a grappler, and so on. Use skills that can counteract whatever it is you are facing, without trying to outdo them at their own game. IMO. Which requires you to be well-rounded enough. This is mostly in relation to competitive sparring. Unless, of course, you're training in, or competing within, that particular skill set.

On the street, if you actively avoid trouble, your chances of having to face a martial artist or sport fighter are almost zero.

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Re: Martial Arts Experiences Discussion Thread

#787

Post by Xformer »

Problem is, you never know who you're facing. That woman could take you by surprise and you wouldn't know what her range is.

Something off though. She can sure kick very fast, almost to an unreal level, but I'm not sure she strikes very hard. Weight + speed = power. She has the speed down no doubt, but maybe she needs to build some leg muscle mass.

Could be very wrong though.
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Re: Martial Arts Experiences Discussion Thread

#788

Post by James Y »

Xformer wrote:
Mon Apr 25, 2022 3:56 pm
Problem is, you never know who you're facing. That woman could take you by surprise and you wouldn't know what her range is.

Something off though. She can sure kick very fast, almost to an unreal level, but I'm not sure she strikes very hard. Weight + speed = power. She has the speed down no doubt, but maybe she needs to build some leg muscle mass.

Could be very wrong though.

Very true. I should have clarified in an ideal, sporting sutuation. That's why I always say, Never Underestimate Anyone. In my younger years, I've both underestimated opponents, and I've been underestimated by opponents. Usually based on physical appearance/size/build, or the style being represented.

The women's (or woman's; they could be the same woman) kicks look like they're generating good power to me. Especially compared to many of the women who show off their Tae Kwon Do kicks in video clips.

TBH, many of the best and most powerful Tae Kwon Do-style kickers are actually tall and lanky, with lean muscle, and not too much muscle mass. Same with power punchers in boxing; many lean-muscled, or even skinny guys, punch well above their weight, and throw KO punches a lot better than lots of the guys with greater muscle bulk.

A lot of power is generating momentum and torque from the ground with the body weight that you have, being relaxed until just before contact, and landing the strike at the right distance and placement. And INTENT. Many lean/lanky types get you right at the end of their punches and kicks, like being struck by a rock or steel ball at the end of a rope or chain that's being whipped into you.

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Re: Martial Arts Experiences Discussion Thread

#789

Post by Xformer »

James Y wrote:
Mon Apr 25, 2022 4:19 pm
Xformer wrote:
Mon Apr 25, 2022 3:56 pm
Problem is, you never know who you're facing. That woman could take you by surprise and you wouldn't know what her range is.

Something off though. She can sure kick very fast, almost to an unreal level, but I'm not sure she strikes very hard. Weight + speed = power. She has the speed down no doubt, but maybe she needs to build some leg muscle mass.

Could be very wrong though.

Very true. I should have clarified in an ideal, sporting sutuation. That's why I always say, Never Underestimate Anyone. In my younger years, I've both underestimated opponents, and I've been underestimated by opponents. Usually based on physical appearance/size/build, or the style being represented.

The women's (or woman's; they could be the same woman) kicks look like they're generating good power to me. Especially compared to many of the women who show off their Tae Kwon Do kicks in video clips.

TBH, many of the best and most powerful Tae Kwon Do-style kickers are actually tall and lanky, with lean muscle, and not too much muscle mass. Same with power punchers in boxing; many lean-muscled, or even skinny guys, punch well above their weight, and throw KO punches a lot better than lots of the guys with greater muscle bulk.

A lot of power is generating momentum and torque from the ground with the body weight that you have, being relaxed until just before contact, and landing the strike at the right distance and placement. And INTENT. Many lean/lanky types get you right at the end of their punches and kicks, like being struck by a rock or steel ball at the end of a rope or chain that's being whipped into you.

Jim
Yeah. Torque and momentum plays a huge part too, that's true. Probably why Deontay Wilder strikes that hard, he's muscular but still quite fit compared to the monsters he faced.

Regardless of the power she uses, even a light kick in the chin can knockout someone, so I guess she has the proper amount of power to send your mind elsewhere if she lands a clean hit. She also seems to be quite precise, which is also important.
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Re: Martial Arts Experiences Discussion Thread

#790

Post by James Y »

Posting this short video just for fun. What really impresses me are the consecutive one-legged backflips. I've never seen anybody do that before.

https://youtube.com/shorts/EkaWpQivo8I?feature=share

Jim
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Re: Martial Arts Experiences Discussion Thread

#791

Post by James Y »

Bruce Lee at the 1967 Long Beach Tournament

This was at Ed Parker's 1967 Long Beach Internationals (Karate tournament). Interesting historical footage. He first demo'd at the same tournament in 1964. I heard somewhere that celebrity hairdresser Jay Sebring had shot this footage. Jay Sebring was one of the victims of the Manson Family, alongside Sharon Tate, in 1969.

IMHO, Bruce Lee was the real deal. You have to realize that in demonstrations, you only display a tiny bit of your stuff. Some people watch these videos and say that BL wasn't really that good. How would they know? He was ahead of his time, for the most part. Was he unbeatable? I can say with 100% certainty that he was not. Nobody is unbeatable. I would have put money on Gene LeBell over BL in a fight. But BL was better than a lot of the big names in the martial arts of that time, as well as today.

Yes, BL was a showman. And he liked to talk a lot; a lot more than any teacher I ever had. But that was him. He also had real deal skills. What you show in a demo or while teaching a class is not always an accurate indication of what you can really do. When my Kenpo teacher gave public demos, his demos were not all that spectacular. But when you sparred him for real, he could beat you from pillar to post. The same with most of my other teachers.

My one regret in martial arts was that I never got to meet or spar with Bruce Lee. Even though I had more actual competitive experience than he had, I'm still certain he would have whipped my butt, but not from me being afraid or not trying. It would have been exhilarating to freespar with a legend, and then I could tell people through my own experience that BL really could kick your behind. Because I hate arrogant speculation in martial arts; with very rare exceptions, martial arts people (and untrained people who only watch YouTube videos) ALWAYS underestimate others, and overestimate themselves.

https://youtu.be/AqHqMdRcROQ

Jim
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Re: Martial Arts Experiences Discussion Thread

#792

Post by James Y »

Tai Chi is the Highest Form of Combat

(video by Ramsey Dewey)

Tai Chi Chuan (alternate spelling: Taijiquan) literally translates to "Grand Ultimate Fist." Which literally means "the highest form of combat." A rather grandiose name, for sure.

Ramsey Dewey is an MMA coach who is based in Shanghai, China. I agree with almost everything he says in this video. It really is HOW a specific art is trained, and the practical experience of the practitioner, more than the art itself, that determines an art's effectiveness in fighting. This includes Chinese martial arts, which in general, are not often thought of as producing effective fighters.

Dewey is 100% correct that in Chinese martial arts, quan (or chuan), which means 'fist' in the arts' names, is referring to the art of combat, and does not mean literally punching with the closed fist. In Chinese systems, 'fist' in the name of the art refers to the entire body, and its uses in fighting.

Dewey mentions Tanglangquan (Praying Mantis fist), and confuses tanglang (mantis) with zhanglang (cockroach). Which surprises me, because when I was in Taiwan, you can't not know what a zhanglang is; cockroaches are everywhere, especially during the hot, humid months. And I would assume that Shanghai has lots of them, too. Perhaps his Mandarin is at a rudimentary level, surprising if you actually live over there.

TBH, most of the best Kung Fu fighters I've known had studied non-Chinese arts, and already had considerable sparring and/or fighting experience, before taking up Kung Fu: Arts such as Karate, Judo, wrestling, boxing, kickboxing, Muay Thai, tae Kwon Do, etc. Then when they came to Chinese systems, they could actually read and apply the Kung Fu skills better than someone who only started with Chinese arts and lacked that practical sparring and fighting experience.

If I hadn't begun my martial arts training with Japanese and American 'eclectic' systems first, and hadn't already had lots of experience sparring and cross-training, understanding of the Chinese systems I trained in would have been much more difficult. Even my Choy Lee Fut sifu originally came from a Kajukenbo background, had lots of sparring and competitive experience back in the day, and had played football in school. Coming from a diverse martial arts background beforehand really does help one to understand and "reverse engineer" the Kung Fu skills to make them work in a more efficient manner than someone who approaches it from a purely theoretical standpoint.

I disagree with Dewey when he calls practitioners who aren't fighters 'nerds.' As long as they aren't misrepresenting themselves as fighters, or their systems as the best, and they are not defrauding others, I don't see any need to disparage them. Fact: The majority of people who take up a martial art are NOT fighters, and never will be. And maybe their goals for training differ; that's their own business.

https://youtu.be/pPyfAYlpcSI

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Re: Martial Arts Experiences Discussion Thread

#793

Post by Naperville »

I should take up Tai Chi for mobility. I did not want to take it up in Chicago. Maybe I can now. I'll look around for a local group.
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Re: Martial Arts Experiences Discussion Thread

#794

Post by Naperville »

If the Chinese have ONE MARTIAL ART that is combative, then they should compete in MMA, but I don't think that they do. They have been searching for a decade now for this lost combat art which does not exist, and it's time to move on and start studying MMA and Escrima/Arnis.

Actually, I'd prefer their special forces studied Tai Chi, then I could take them out.
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Re: Martial Arts Experiences Discussion Thread

#795

Post by James Y »

Naperville wrote:
Fri Apr 29, 2022 7:45 pm
If the Chinese have ONE MARTIAL ART that is combative, then they should compete in MMA, but I don't think that they do. They have been searching for a decade now for this lost combat art which does not exist, and it's time to move on and start studying MMA and Escrima/Arnis.

Actually, I'd prefer their special forces studied Tai Chi, then I could take them out.

Well, let's be honest, there are several martial arts and combative methods besides Chinese systems that have never proven themselves in MMA. For example, how many fighters have fought successfully in MMA using FMA, or Silat, or Krav Maga? Or Bando? Or French Savate? Yet nobody argues that these methods have no value.

It may surprise some people, but MMA is more popular among urban young people in China, Taiwan, Hong Kong, and Singapore nowadays than all the traditional Chinese martial arts combined.

Chinese Sanda, also called Sanshou, a full-contact sport which is a combination of kicking, punching and Shuai Jiao throwing techniques, has also been popular over there for several decades. Former UFC women's champion Zhang Weili, and former MMA fighter and kickboxer Cung Le, were Sanda champions before competing in MMA, and that was the base they came from.

I would never have studied the Chinese arts I did if they had no inherent worth. There are good fighters in Chinese systems, just not the majority of students. The concepts and skills, at least in the methods I studied and understood, were excellent. But they require skill and a degree of preexisting experience, above-average conceptual ability, and pressure testing to make them work. Abilities that cannot be gained from only doing forms. Once the skills become a part of you, they are like any of the abilities gained from any other countries' arts or systems. I've held my own against kickboxers, Karateka, Tae Kwon Doists, Kajukenbo guys, etc., using Choy Lee Fut, combined with other stuff that's worked for me that I kept from before.

Sure, there are a lot of people who do not do those things, but that doesn't mean the arts themselves are useless. EVERY martial art system has its "larpers" and hangers-on.

Don't underestimate anyone.

Jim
Last edited by James Y on Fri Apr 29, 2022 8:34 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Martial Arts Experiences Discussion Thread

#796

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The Dog Brothers have a story and I think it is on their website. They offered to fight full contact with sticks and the UFC said NO. Obviously FMA is not a complete art without edged weapons, that is the #1 reason why I took it up.

I'll have to look up Zhang Weili, and Cung Le!

When I studied martial arts there was no UFC for the most part. It's pretty new. BJJ, kickboxing and boxing have taken it over.
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Re: Martial Arts Experiences Discussion Thread

#797

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Dog Brother's (FMA) rejection letter from UFC.

https://dogbrothers.com/ufc-letter/
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Re: Martial Arts Experiences Discussion Thread

#798

Post by Naperville »

"The Dog Brothers are a band of sweaty, smelly, psychopaths with sticks..." and knives, and that is how FMA rolls.
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Re: Martial Arts Experiences Discussion Thread

#799

Post by Naperville »

James Y wrote:
Fri Apr 29, 2022 8:25 pm
...
Don't underestimate anyone.

Jim
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Re: Martial Arts Experiences Discussion Thread

#800

Post by James Y »

Zhang Weili got KO'd when she lost her UFC title, but before that she had torn through everyone she fought. Of course, she also had to train in standard MMA. But it was her Sanda that was the basis of her becoming an excellent fighter.

Doesn't FMA have empty-hand methods as well as weapons?

Jim
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