Martial Arts Experiences Discussion Thread

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max808
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Re: Martial Arts Experiences Discussion Thread

#821

Post by max808 »

Got a lil carried away there Jim, do forgive me. :cheap-sunglasses
To your question, having two bum knees my only chance is to deescalate the situation or if that fails occupy the space more violently than my opponent (usually more than one around here). Shock & awe tends to work well in my limited experience.
MNOSD 0047 - mens sana in corpore sano -
Do more than is required of you . Patton
For man's only weapon is courage that flinches not from the gates of **** itself, and against such not even the legions of **** can stand. Robert E. Howard
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Re: Martial Arts Experiences Discussion Thread

#822

Post by James Y »

max808 wrote:
Mon May 16, 2022 4:15 am
Got a lil carried away there Jim, do forgive me. :cheap-sunglasses
To your question, having two bum knees my only chance is to deescalate the situation or if that fails occupy the space more violently than my opponent (usually more than one around here). Shock & awe tends to work well in my limited experience.



Thanks for posting, Max. You didn't get carried away, you made some great points. Your posts are always on point. If anything, I'M the one who goes on tangents. 😉

Yeah, I wouldn't really compare Jocko to the second guy, other than they had completely opposing viewpoints on the subject of running away or not.

I agree with you about a lot of the disrespect some of the BJJ guys have towards Japanese Jujutsu, and the sometimes denial of BJJ's origin. Ironically, Rickson Gracie himself has stated in an interview that Gracie Jiu-Jitsu (BJJ) is a Japanese martial art, many of whose techniques were deemphasized or lost by the heavier emphasis on throws and deemphasis on ground grappling in Judo in Japan after WW2. Rickson said he was happy that many of these techniques are being reintroduced back into Japan through BJJ. Mitsuyo Maeda, who taught the Gracies their art, was actually a student of Judo founder Jigoro Kano, and Tomita Tsunejiro, one of Kano's earliest students; so BJJ could easily have been called Brazilian Judo. But what Maeda taught the Gracies had not been 100% complete, and they mostly received the floor grappling aspect, which the Gracies made their own and became so great at. When I trained Judo in the 70s, my Japanese-American sensei had learned Judo here pre-WW2, and so his teachings still had a lot of the ground fighting aspects that had been deemphasized in Japan post-WW2. So when I trained BJJ for a year in my 40s, the floor work did not feel totally unfamiliar.

As for some BJJ practitioners denying any connection to Japanese Jujutsu, unfortunately, you cannot fix stupid. Traditionally, Japanese empty-handed arts (Jujutsu styles) always had emphasis on floor grappling, MUCH more so than, say, Chinese martial arts ever did, due to the Japanese custom of visiting and sitting on the floor, and the likelihood of being attacked in that position. Also, since these Jujutsu styles had been associated with the warrior class, if they lost their weapon(s) in a combat situation, throwing and grappling were much more effective than striking against an opponent wearing protective armor.

I read one guy's statement in another forum that BJJ is not Japanese, because 'Jiu-Jitsu' is the Brazilian spelling of a completely separate Brazilian martial art, with no connection to Japanese Jujutsu. WRONG!! The old English spellings of Jujutsu and Judo in the early 1900s were Jiu-Jitsu and sometimes Jiudo. And Jiu-Jitsu and Jiudo/Judo were used interchangeably, because Judo IS a modernized form of Jujutsu. Judo was also referred to as 'Kano's Jiu-Jitsu.' You would think that if someone practices a particular martial art (or claims to), that they would at least educate themselves to the minimum degree about its history. It's easy enough to do nowadays, but this is stuff I learned pre-internet.

As far as Aikido goes, I respect it. Like Judo, Aikido is another offshoot of Jujutsu (in particular, Daito-ryu Aikijujutsu). And as far as Steven Seagal goes, even though he is a narcissist/psychopath, and many people (including myself) dislike him (many with good reason), and he's made a fool of himself too many times, there are too many testimonies from credible people that Steven Seagal does possess legitimate skills, even though he is also a chronic liar. That said, I cannot stand to watch his movies anymore, even though I used to like Out For Justice (mainly because of William Forsythe's excellent performance). Steven Seagal has brought much of the ridicule he receives onto himself.

Jim
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Re: Martial Arts Experiences Discussion Thread

#823

Post by max808 »

James Y wrote:
Mon May 16, 2022 8:08 am
max808 wrote:
Mon May 16, 2022 4:15 am
Got a lil carried away there Jim, do forgive me. :cheap-sunglasses
To your question, having two bum knees my only chance is to deescalate the situation or if that fails occupy the space more violently than my opponent (usually more than one around here). Shock & awe tends to work well in my limited experience.



Thanks for posting, Max. You didn't get carried away, you made some great points. Your posts are always on point. If anything, I'M the one who goes on tangents. 😉

Yeah, I wouldn't really compare Jocko to the second guy, other than they had completely opposing viewpoints on the subject of running away or not.

I agree with you about a lot of the disrespect some of the BJJ guys have towards Japanese Jujutsu, and the sometimes denial of BJJ's origin. Ironically, Rickson Gracie himself has stated in an interview that Gracie Jiu-Jitsu (BJJ) is a Japanese martial art, many of whose techniques were deemphasized or lost by the heavier emphasis on throws and deemphasis on ground grappling in Judo in Japan after WW2. Rickson said he was happy that many of these techniques are being reintroduced back into Japan through BJJ. Mitsuyo Maeda, who taught the Gracies their art, was actually a student of Judo founder Jigoro Kano, and Tomita Tsunejiro, one of Kano's earliest students; so BJJ could easily have been called Brazilian Judo. But what Maeda taught the Gracies had not been 100% complete, and they mostly received the floor grappling aspect, which the Gracies made their own and became so great at. When I trained Judo in the 70s, my Japanese-American sensei had learned Judo here pre-WW2, and so his teachings still had a lot of the ground fighting aspects that had been deemphasized in Japan post-WW2. So when I trained BJJ for a year in my 40s, the floor work did not feel totally unfamiliar.

As for some BJJ practitioners denying any connection to Japanese Jujutsu, unfortunately, you cannot fix stupid. Traditionally, Japanese empty-handed arts (Jujutsu styles) always had emphasis on floor grappling, MUCH more so than, say, Chinese martial arts ever did, due to the Japanese custom of visiting and sitting on the floor, and the likelihood of being attacked in that position. Also, since these Jujutsu styles had been associated with the warrior class, if they lost their weapon(s) in a combat situation, throwing and grappling were much more effective than striking against an opponent wearing protective armor.

I read one guy's statement in another forum that BJJ is not Japanese, because 'Jiu-Jitsu' is the Brazilian spelling of a completely separate Brazilian martial art, with no connection to Japanese Jujutsu. WRONG!! The old English spellings of Jujutsu and Judo in the early 1900s were Jiu-Jitsu and sometimes Jiudo. And Jiu-Jitsu and Jiudo/Judo were used interchangeably, because Judo IS a modernized form of Jujutsu. Judo was also referred to as 'Kano's Jiu-Jitsu.' You would think that if someone practices a particular martial art (or claims to), that they would at least educate themselves to the minimum degree about its history. It's easy enough to do nowadays, but this is stuff I learned pre-internet.

As far as Aikido goes, I respect it. Like Judo, Aikido is another offshoot of Jujutsu (in particular, Daito-ryu Aikijujutsu). And as far as Steven Seagal goes, even though he is a narcissist/psychopath, and many people (including myself) dislike him (many with good reason), and he's made a fool of himself too many times, there are too many testimonies from credible people that Steven Seagal does possess legitimate skills, even though he is also a chronic liar. That said, I cannot stand to watch his movies anymore, even though I used to like Out For Justice (mainly because of William Forsythe's excellent performance). Steven Seagal has brought much of the ridicule he receives onto himself.

Jim
Thanks Jim for your generous and very informative reply. As always I learn a lot from your history lessons and pale in comparison to your mastery of these arts, so please do continue to go out on these tangents. Your explanation of Japanese emphasis on grappling over striking makes perfect sense considering their groundbased culture and a samurai's robust armor. Probably the reason iaido has always been my favorite, even been jonesing for a katana ever since my boken disappeared, just to freshen up some katas. When it comes to Steven Seagal I stand corrected, guess I'm not up to date on his current state of mind or affairs. I just remember some old videos from when he first started teaching in Japan, the first US citizen to do so if I'm not mistaken, and his form and intensity are/were impressive to say the least. I try not to judge people based on their personal lives or circumstances and Lord knows Hollywood is a whirlpool of narcissism and inflated egos where chaos rules so good luck getting out of that one unscathed. Personally I'm more inclined to take up Krav Maga because of its pragmatic approach, plus there's some legit schools around here being taught by Israelis. BJJ just seems too much of a cult, also I'm not a big fan of cauliflower ears. :winking-tongue
Thanks again and you have a good one Sir.

max
MNOSD 0047 - mens sana in corpore sano -
Do more than is required of you . Patton
For man's only weapon is courage that flinches not from the gates of **** itself, and against such not even the legions of **** can stand. Robert E. Howard
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Re: Martial Arts Experiences Discussion Thread

#824

Post by twinboysdad »

My son who wrestles asked me several years ago when he was first getting into the sport “dad, do girls like cauliflower ears?” To which I responded “only if they are from Iowa”. We do not live in or near IA for the record…I think a small, small amount of cauliflower looks bada$$ but of course I have none. His original wrestling coach had melted wax dried apple ears that were probably hard for most women around the Deep South where we are, to look past.
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Re: Martial Arts Experiences Discussion Thread

#825

Post by James Y »

Association Between Hearing Loss and Cauliflower Ears in Wrestlers, A Case Control Study Employing Hearing Tests

Not only wrestlers, but boxers, as well as practitioners of Judo, BJJ, and MMA, etc., can get cauliflower ears. I’m glad it never happened to me, “ badge of honor” be d@mned.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4592768/

Jim
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Re: Martial Arts Experiences Discussion Thread

#826

Post by James Y »

max808 wrote:
Mon May 16, 2022 1:10 pm


Thanks Jim for your generous and very informative reply. As always I learn a lot from your history lessons and pale in comparison to your mastery of these arts, so please do continue to go out on these tangents. Your explanation of Japanese emphasis on grappling over striking makes perfect sense considering their groundbased culture and a samurai's robust armor. Probably the reason iaido has always been my favorite, even been jonesing for a katana ever since my boken disappeared, just to freshen up some katas. When it comes to Steven Seagal I stand corrected, guess I'm not up to date on his current state of mind or affairs. I just remember some old videos from when he first started teaching in Japan, the first US citizen to do so if I'm not mistaken, and his form and intensity are/were impressive to say the least. I try not to judge people based on their personal lives or circumstances and Lord knows Hollywood is a whirlpool of narcissism and inflated egos where chaos rules so good luck getting out of that one unscathed. Personally I'm more inclined to take up Krav Maga because of its pragmatic approach, plus there's some legit schools around here being taught by Israelis. BJJ just seems too much of a cult, also I'm not a big fan of cauliflower ears. :winking-tongue
Thanks again and you have a good one Sir.

max

Thank you for the kind words, Max, but I wouldn't consider myself a master of any arts, only a long-time practitioner. When people start thinking of themselves as masters, they tend to get complacent. I never place myself above anybody on the subject (other than maybe those who choose to be willfully ignorant). Even then, that only relates to basic knowledge and awareness of understanding what one is talking about. I still always follow the golden rule: Never Underestimate Anyone.

In my younger years, I was obsessively interested in martial arts, and studied all I could get my hands on, on the subject, from different sources. I also have a certain amount of OCD, which probably helped fuel it.

If I had to choose between Krav Maga and BJJ for pure self-defense, I would go with the Krav Maga. Although as you alluded to, the school would have to be good, taught by someone who's really qualified and knows what they're doing. I've heard both good and not-so-good things about KM, depending on people's experiences with it. But as with anything else, it all depends on who is teaching and how it's being taught.

Jim
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Re: Martial Arts Experiences Discussion Thread

#827

Post by James Y »

I haven't paid much attention to the news lately, but I am especially saddened to learn of this senseless shooting in Orange County, CA. All such shootings are senseless, but although I never knew the one fatality, Dr. John Cheng, I had heard of him in the martial arts. And by all accounts, he was an excellent doctor and a great human being.

Apparently, the shooter was an immigrant from Mainland China who was targeting Taiwanese.

Sheriff: OC Shooting Was Motivated by Hate; Victim Was 'Hero'

https://www.cbs8.com/article/news/crime ... 413ca8cad1

Hero Who Stopped CA Church Shooter Grew Up in East Texas

https://tylerpaper.com/news/local/hero- ... 507ac.html


Dr. John Cheng demonstrating a form from the 7-Star Praying Mantis system:

https://youtu.be/0sqJ3jczpFw

Jim
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Re: Martial Arts Experiences Discussion Thread

#828

Post by Naperville »

James Y wrote:
Wed May 18, 2022 2:26 pm
I haven't paid much attention to the news lately, but I am especially saddened to learn of this senseless shooting in Orange County, CA. All such shootings are senseless, but although I never knew the one fatality, Dr. John Cheng, I had heard of him in the martial arts. And by all accounts, he was an excellent doctor and a great human being.

Apparently, the shooter was an immigrant from Mainland China who was targeting Taiwanese.

Sheriff: OC Shooting Was Motivated by Hate; Victim Was 'Hero'
https://www.cbs8.com/article/news/crime ... 413ca8cad1
Hero Who Stopped CA Church Shooter Grew Up in East Texas
https://tylerpaper.com/news/local/hero- ... 507ac.html
Dr. John Cheng demonstrating a form from the 7-Star Praying Mantis system:

https://youtu.be/0sqJ3jczpFw

Jim
Dr. John Cheng certainly was a very brave man and a hero! There aren't that many people that will charge a shooter. Hopefully they will have a mass for him and he will not be forgotten.

I have relatives at the Leisure World in Seal Beach, and they let me stay a week before I moved on to Silicon Valley in 2000. Access is controlled. The church must be on the perimeter, because the shooter would not be able to gain access without knowing someone inside Leisure World.
I support the 2nd Amendment Organizations of GOA, NRA, FPC, SAF, and "Knife Rights"
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Re: Martial Arts Experiences Discussion Thread

#829

Post by James Y »

Naperville wrote:
Wed May 18, 2022 4:18 pm
James Y wrote:
Wed May 18, 2022 2:26 pm
I haven't paid much attention to the news lately, but I am especially saddened to learn of this senseless shooting in Orange County, CA. All such shootings are senseless, but although I never knew the one fatality, Dr. John Cheng, I had heard of him in the martial arts. And by all accounts, he was an excellent doctor and a great human being.

Apparently, the shooter was an immigrant from Mainland China who was targeting Taiwanese.

Sheriff: OC Shooting Was Motivated by Hate; Victim Was 'Hero'
https://www.cbs8.com/article/news/crime ... 413ca8cad1
Hero Who Stopped CA Church Shooter Grew Up in East Texas
https://tylerpaper.com/news/local/hero- ... 507ac.html
Dr. John Cheng demonstrating a form from the 7-Star Praying Mantis system:

https://youtu.be/0sqJ3jczpFw

Jim
Dr. John Cheng certainly was a very brave man and a hero! There aren't that many people that will charge a shooter. Hopefully they will have a mass for him and he will not be forgotten.

I have relatives at the Leisure World in Seal Beach, and they let me stay a week before I moved on to Silicon Valley in 2000. Access is controlled. The church must be on the perimeter, because the shooter would not be able to gain access without knowing someone inside Leisure World.

I don't know the layout of Leisure World, as I've never been there, but I assume this was a true case of a lone nutter.

Yes, Dr. Cheng was indeed a hero, as were all of them who took the gunman down and hogtied him. But Dr. Cheng made the ultimate sacrifice. I have the impression he will be honored and recognized as a hero in that locale, and among his family, his patients and staff, and fellow congregants; but not on a national level.

Jim
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Re: Martial Arts Experiences Discussion Thread

#830

Post by Cobblet »

Thought I'd throw in my two cents here, though it's not much for experience. I took about six months each of jits and kickboxing (muay thai specifically). Obviously you can't get much accomplished in such a short amount of time, but I really enjoyed both and there's not much better workout you'll find. The people were really mellow too ... something about fighters and people that train a lot, they don't really feel the need to play tough guy in the gym. It was a pleasant surprise and good group of people.
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Re: Martial Arts Experiences Discussion Thread

#831

Post by James Y »

Cobblet wrote:
Thu May 19, 2022 7:38 pm
Thought I'd throw in my two cents here, though it's not much for experience. I took about six months each of jits and kickboxing (muay thai specifically). Obviously you can't get much accomplished in such a short amount of time, but I really enjoyed both and there's not much better workout you'll find. The people were really mellow too ... something about fighters and people that train a lot, they don't really feel the need to play tough guy in the gym. It was a pleasant surprise and good group of people.

Thank you for sharing, Cobblet!

Jim
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Re: Martial Arts Experiences Discussion Thread

#832

Post by James Y »

This Self-Defense Fraud Gets Exposed!...Can You Spot a Fake Expert?

I could tell right away that neither of the two male "experts" knew what they were doing.

This might piss off some martial arts people, but I would also say that the "self-defense" techniques seen in many "traditional" martial arts curriculums wouldn't work in a real street situation, either. Many are far too complex to become natural reactions against real attacks, and even the choreographed attacks themselves are unrealistic.

Ironically, in times past, when martial arts were NOT a recreational activity available to the general public, but were used for actual warfare and/or survival of a village or a clan, etc., intricately choreographed fighting/self-defense techniques did not exist. Forms did exist in Chinese martial arts (to a far lesser degree than today), but the real fighting applications were always simple and natural, and backed up by hard training and development/conditioning. And bad intent! The intricately choreographed SD techniques seen today in many martial arts were mostly created in the 20th century, when actual survival using martial arts was no longer a priority like they were in the past, and therefore, they are not "traditional" in the true sense of the word. Believe it or not, some of the better, more legitimate 'modern combatives' methods are closer to the old traditional martial arts than many of the so-called "traditional" martial arts are.

https://youtu.be/-627SuMAczc

Jim
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Re: Martial Arts Experiences Discussion Thread

#833

Post by twinboysdad »

Cobblet wrote:
Thu May 19, 2022 7:38 pm
Thought I'd throw in my two cents here, though it's not much for experience. I took about six months each of jits and kickboxing (muay thai specifically). Obviously you can't get much accomplished in such a short amount of time, but I really enjoyed both and there's not much better workout you'll find. The people were really mellow too ... something about fighters and people that train a lot, they don't really feel the need to play tough guy in the gym. It was a pleasant surprise and good group of people.
Found the very same in my days at a BJJ school that had actual fighters, and see it at my son’s wrestling club that has legit D1 kids that attend. Those kids are chill and regular kids but will shake on some hot sauce if a kid gets cocky or disrespectful
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Re: Martial Arts Experiences Discussion Thread

#834

Post by James Y »

I also found that was true at the BJJ academy I trained at. Everybody was really cool there. Also at the Judo dojo I trained at way back in the day.

It was mixed in the other arts I trained in. Most were cool, but there were a few arrogant types, even among some who were pro kickboxers in the Kenpo school I trained at. I never had enough of a problem with them that I couldn't train with and learn from them. I've also trained alongside some folks who could be considered bad guys, but who had a ton of real world experience. Sometimes, you can learn a lot when training with people from completely different backgrounds and outlooks on life but who have lots of knowledge and experience, without having to buddy up to them. It takes all kinds.

The ones to avoid training with are lazy people. And the occasional psychos that martial arts seem to attract from time to time. But most of the time, hard training discourages the psychos.

Of course, with kids training, good character in training partners is a VERY important trait. Because martial arts and combat sports training already carries enough inherent risks.

Jim
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Re: Martial Arts Experiences Discussion Thread

#835

Post by max808 »

James Y wrote:
Tue May 17, 2022 9:18 am
max808 wrote:
Mon May 16, 2022 1:10 pm


Thanks Jim for your generous and very informative reply. As always I learn a lot from your history lessons and pale in comparison to your mastery of these arts, so please do continue to go out on these tangents. Your explanation of Japanese emphasis on grappling over striking makes perfect sense considering their groundbased culture and a samurai's robust armor. Probably the reason iaido has always been my favorite, even been jonesing for a katana ever since my boken disappeared, just to freshen up some katas. When it comes to Steven Seagal I stand corrected, guess I'm not up to date on his current state of mind or affairs. I just remember some old videos from when he first started teaching in Japan, the first US citizen to do so if I'm not mistaken, and his form and intensity are/were impressive to say the least. I try not to judge people based on their personal lives or circumstances and Lord knows Hollywood is a whirlpool of narcissism and inflated egos where chaos rules so good luck getting out of that one unscathed. Personally I'm more inclined to take up Krav Maga because of its pragmatic approach, plus there's some legit schools around here being taught by Israelis. BJJ just seems too much of a cult, also I'm not a big fan of cauliflower ears. :winking-tongue
Thanks again and you have a good one Sir.

max

Thank you for the kind words, Max, but I wouldn't consider myself a master of any arts, only a long-time practitioner. When people start thinking of themselves as masters, they tend to get complacent. I never place myself above anybody on the subject (other than maybe those who choose to be willfully ignorant). Even then, that only relates to basic knowledge and awareness of understanding what one is talking about. I still always follow the golden rule: Never Underestimate Anyone.

In my younger years, I was obsessively interested in martial arts, and studied all I could get my hands on, on the subject, from different sources. I also have a certain amount of OCD, which probably helped fuel it.

If I had to choose between Krav Maga and BJJ for pure self-defense, I would go with the Krav Maga. Although as you alluded to, the school would have to be good, taught by someone who's really qualified and knows what they're doing. I've heard both good and not-so-good things about KM, depending on people's experiences with it. But as with anything else, it all depends on who is teaching and how it's being taught.

Jim
Happy to oblige Jim, I know by now you're the humble type who would never consider himself a master of anything, which ironically is usually the sign of a true master in my humble not so masterful opinion. 😎 Case in point, I was sitting outside of a bar this afternoon with a cold one waiting for a buddy, who it turns out stood me up. No biggie, I was enjoying my Rochefort 10 and as luck would have it another friend whom I hadn't seen for several years landed at the same bar and joined me at my table. He had just gotten back from Africa and we had a great time exchanging stories. Meanwhile another buddy and his teenage son sat down at the next table and they came across one of their buddies who joined them. To illustrate their buddy's demeanor, first thing he called the teenage son was a nasty turd in local slang so I already kinda knew what we were getting into. Long story short, 3 hours of beligerent behavior and a dozen beers later he decided it was time to go home and said his goodbyes, throwing an insult my way which I can't even remember cuz I was getting pretty hammered myself at that point, so I simply replied "make sure you get home safe son" a lil harsher in local Flemish speak, which was reason enough for him to walk all the way back to my table and accuse me of calling him a retard, adding "I'm dead serious dude" staring me down and mean mugging. My future Krav Maga skills might've come in handy prematurely but luckily I was still vocal enough to deescalate the situation and advise him that if he puts everyone around him on blast he should expect some pushback sooner or later. The owner of the bar is a good friend of mine so all in all I'm grateful it turned out the way it did, him leaving the scene with an even bigger chip on his shoulder instead of a violent encounter and her having to deal with the aftermath of yet another fistfight and a tainted reputation. Moral of the story I guess, don't drink and fight kids!
I hope you have a great weekend Jim and stay safe out there.

max
MNOSD 0047 - mens sana in corpore sano -
Do more than is required of you . Patton
For man's only weapon is courage that flinches not from the gates of **** itself, and against such not even the legions of **** can stand. Robert E. Howard
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Re: Martial Arts Experiences Discussion Thread

#836

Post by Takuan »

I think the quality of Krav Maga and Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu is largely dependent on the gym and instructor(s). I've been studying Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu since 2005 and I've been fortunate to train in a variety different schools in multiple states. Many schools emphasize sport grappling or vale tudo (no-holds-barred fighting for MMA) rather than self-defense, so you have to find a school that matches your goals. It can be frustrating if you want to learn self-defense and your gym only trains for IBJJF competitions.

I've spent less time in Krav Maga than I have in BJJ. The problem I've found with Krav is that many schools tend to emphasize technique repetition and pad work over sparring. The good Krav Schools that do a lot of sparring turn out excellent combat athletes, while those that do little sparring tend to be less functional (which is true for all martial arts, of course).

Ultimately, I think Krav and BJJ are nice complements to one another, since they emphasize different aspects of fighting (e.g., striking vs. grappling). Krav is much faster to learn compared to BJJ because it's so simple (in the Occam's razor sense). My instructor, Burton Richardson, has all beginners start in his Krav Maga class, and then once they have mastered the basics there, they're eligible to start training in his other classes (e.g., Jeet Kune Do, Jiu-Jitsu, or Kali). If somebody gets jumped in a parking lot after only a few months training, Krav is probably going to be the most useful to them. One nice thing about BJJ, though, is its ability to end a fight with minimal injury to one's opponent. We live in a litigious society, so it pays to keep things on the lower end of the force continuum if possible.
"We cannot live better than in seeking to become better."
--Socrates
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Re: Martial Arts Experiences Discussion Thread

#837

Post by James Y »

max808 wrote:
Sat May 21, 2022 4:02 pm
James Y wrote:
Tue May 17, 2022 9:18 am
max808 wrote:
Mon May 16, 2022 1:10 pm


Thanks Jim for your generous and very informative reply. As always I learn a lot from your history lessons and pale in comparison to your mastery of these arts, so please do continue to go out on these tangents. Your explanation of Japanese emphasis on grappling over striking makes perfect sense considering their groundbased culture and a samurai's robust armor. Probably the reason iaido has always been my favorite, even been jonesing for a katana ever since my boken disappeared, just to freshen up some katas. When it comes to Steven Seagal I stand corrected, guess I'm not up to date on his current state of mind or affairs. I just remember some old videos from when he first started teaching in Japan, the first US citizen to do so if I'm not mistaken, and his form and intensity are/were impressive to say the least. I try not to judge people based on their personal lives or circumstances and Lord knows Hollywood is a whirlpool of narcissism and inflated egos where chaos rules so good luck getting out of that one unscathed. Personally I'm more inclined to take up Krav Maga because of its pragmatic approach, plus there's some legit schools around here being taught by Israelis. BJJ just seems too much of a cult, also I'm not a big fan of cauliflower ears. :winking-tongue
Thanks again and you have a good one Sir.

max

Thank you for the kind words, Max, but I wouldn't consider myself a master of any arts, only a long-time practitioner. When people start thinking of themselves as masters, they tend to get complacent. I never place myself above anybody on the subject (other than maybe those who choose to be willfully ignorant). Even then, that only relates to basic knowledge and awareness of understanding what one is talking about. I still always follow the golden rule: Never Underestimate Anyone.

In my younger years, I was obsessively interested in martial arts, and studied all I could get my hands on, on the subject, from different sources. I also have a certain amount of OCD, which probably helped fuel it.

If I had to choose between Krav Maga and BJJ for pure self-defense, I would go with the Krav Maga. Although as you alluded to, the school would have to be good, taught by someone who's really qualified and knows what they're doing. I've heard both good and not-so-good things about KM, depending on people's experiences with it. But as with anything else, it all depends on who is teaching and how it's being taught.

Jim
Happy to oblige Jim, I know by now you're the humble type who would never consider himself a master of anything, which ironically is usually the sign of a true master in my humble not so masterful opinion. 😎 Case in point, I was sitting outside of a bar this afternoon with a cold one waiting for a buddy, who it turns out stood me up. No biggie, I was enjoying my Rochefort 10 and as luck would have it another friend whom I hadn't seen for several years landed at the same bar and joined me at my table. He had just gotten back from Africa and we had a great time exchanging stories. Meanwhile another buddy and his teenage son sat down at the next table and they came across one of their buddies who joined them. To illustrate their buddy's demeanor, first thing he called the teenage son was a nasty turd in local slang so I already kinda knew what we were getting into. Long story short, 3 hours of beligerent behavior and a dozen beers later he decided it was time to go home and said his goodbyes, throwing an insult my way which I can't even remember cuz I was getting pretty hammered myself at that point, so I simply replied "make sure you get home safe son" a lil harsher in local Flemish speak, which was reason enough for him to walk all the way back to my table and accuse me of calling him a retard, adding "I'm dead serious dude" staring me down and mean mugging. My future Krav Maga skills might've come in handy prematurely but luckily I was still vocal enough to deescalate the situation and advise him that if he puts everyone around him on blast he should expect some pushback sooner or later. The owner of the bar is a good friend of mine so all in all I'm grateful it turned out the way it did, him leaving the scene with an even bigger chip on his shoulder instead of a violent encounter and her having to deal with the aftermath of yet another fistfight and a tainted reputation. Moral of the story I guess, don't drink and fight kids!
I hope you have a great weekend Jim and stay safe out there.

max

Thanks, Max! Enjoyed your story, and a good moral of the story, too.

You have a good one and stay safe as well!

Jim
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Re: Martial Arts Experiences Discussion Thread

#838

Post by James Y »

Takuan wrote:
Sun May 22, 2022 10:23 am
I think the quality of Krav Maga and Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu is largely dependent on the gym and instructor(s). I've been studying Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu since 2005 and I've been fortunate to train in a variety different schools in multiple states. Many schools emphasize sport grappling or vale tudo (no-holds-barred fighting for MMA) rather than self-defense, so you have to find a school that matches your goals. It can be frustrating if you want to learn self-defense and your gym only trains for IBJJF competitions.

I've spent less time in Krav Maga than I have in BJJ. The problem I've found with Krav is that many schools tend to emphasize technique repetition and pad work over sparring. The good Krav Schools that do a lot of sparring turn out excellent combat athletes, while those that do little sparring tend to be less functional (which is true for all martial arts, of course).

Ultimately, I think Krav and BJJ are nice complements to one another, since they emphasize different aspects of fighting (e.g., striking vs. grappling). Krav is much faster to learn compared to BJJ because it's so simple (in the Occam's razor sense). My instructor, Burton Richardson, has all beginners start in his Krav Maga class, and then once they have mastered the basics there, they're eligible to start training in his other classes (e.g., Jeet Kune Do, Jiu-Jitsu, or Kali). If somebody gets jumped in a parking lot after only a few months training, Krav is probably going to be the most useful to them. One nice thing about BJJ, though, is its ability to end a fight with minimal injury to one's opponent. We live in a litigious society, so it pays to keep things on the lower end of the force continuum if possible.

Thank you for sharing your insight and experiences, Takuan!

Jim
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Re: Martial Arts Experiences Discussion Thread

#839

Post by James Y »

    What You Should NEVER Do Before a Street Fight - Top 2 Mistakes

    Ideally, ALL 'street fights' should be avoided, as much as possible. Of course, this video isn't even including sudden ambush attacks by predatory criminals. But there is good advice here.

    IMO, If action must be taken, then sudden, pre-emptive striking to a vital area (such as the neck, chin/jawline, etc.) is generally going to be more effective than waiting for the other person to attack first, and trying to counter their attack. Many martial arts are practiced with the idea of the opponent always attacking first, and countering the opponent, which CAN work. But in real-life (meaning non-sporting) fights, action usually beats reaction.

    IMO, it is vital to develop the ability to strike suddenly and very hard, *preemptively*, with no (as as little as possible) telegraphing, or pre-attack indicators. And to have the ability to follow up, if necessary. This is not only a physical skill, but a mindset, a willingness, a commitment to do it, if left with no other options.

    https://youtu.be/SRcPdEhBcPI

    Jim
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    Re: Martial Arts Experiences Discussion Thread

    #840

    Post by James Y »

    Martial Arts: “Internal” vs “External”?

    Warning: This is a long, rambling post. :sleeping :smiling-cheeks

    For anyone who has REALLY delved into the subject of martial arts, especially Chinese martial arts, you will undoubtedly hear the words ‘neijia’ (internal) and ‘waijia’ (external) to describe various systems. In general, there are three systems that are considered the ‘big three’ internal systems: Taijiquan (also spelled Tai Chi Chuan), Xingyiquan (Hsing-I Chuan), and Baguazhang (Pa Kua Chang). There are others as well, such as Liuhe Bafa (6 Harmonies, 8 Methods), etc. In Japanese martial arts, Aikido can be considered an ‘internal’ system.

    So what is the difference between “internal” and “external” martial arts? To oversimplify it, internal systems develop and strengthen the qi (chi, or life force energy) first, and then move on to “external” practices; whereas the so-called “external” systems develop the physical body first, then develop their qi (or don’t develop their qi at all). This is an oversimplification, but you get the point. According to beliefs among many“internal” martial artists, “external” systems never develop the qi and only deplete it over time; therefore “external” practitioners invariably age badly, and their skills evaporate, while internal stylists do not.

    First, let me say that “qi”, or “chi” (“ki” in Japanese; “prana” in Sanskrit) is a real thing. There is no question about it. It is life force. Restoring and maintaining its proper flow is what acupuncture is based on. Now, can you FIGHT with it? I don’t know. I’m not one to say it’s impossible, BUT…even top masters of so-called internal styles in past times who actually fought stated that physical contact was absolutely necessary in fighting. Even a Taoist master I mentioned earlier in this thread (or in my ‘Unusual and/or Paranormal Events thread) who could project his qi and cause internal injury from a distance, did not consider qi projection to be a valid fighting or self-defense technique, and he’d had lots of real fighting experience as a young man. Even if using qi in a fight means the directing of qi is enhancing your physical body's ability to strike with greater power and to take destructive blows without physical damage, many of the 'qi power' proponents themselves seem unwilling or unable to show such outside of controlled demonstrations, which means their claims of internal superiority may or may not have any validity. If someone punches with greater power, is it 'qi,' or is it proper technique, proper body mechanics/most efficient use of body mass and weight shift, combined with focused intent? Could that intent be classified as directing of one's qi energy? In that case, Mike Tyson must be an 'internal' master.

    Do “internal” practitioners always age better/more gracefully, and maintain their skills better than, so-called “external” practitioners? Let’s see. In Taiwan, I used to see an old master of Xingyiquan who sometimes still taught his students, but mostly went to a park to sit with his friends, who were fellow old teachers from China, who all taught different systems. One day he came to the park early with his wife before the other teachers arrived, and he collapsed. I ran over and helped his wife get him to his feet. He’d already been showing signs of what appeared to be dementia, and possibly Parkinson's disease. When his friends arrived, they took over and helped him. None of those other teachers were “internal” stylists, and they were all about his same age (their late 70s to early 80s) and all were in excellent health. In fact, one of those friends hadn’t practiced Kung Fu since he was a young man, but had been a weight lifter in China before fleeing to Taiwan in the late 1940s/early 1950s). But he walked a lot everyday. He could walk circles around the Xingyiquan master. As could an old former Beijing Opera star, who could still balance on one leg and hold his other leg up with his foot over his head, and also still did basic somersaults. And another, who was a master of Yingzhaoquan (Eagle Claw). None of whom practiced an “internal” system.

    When former boxer Jack Dempsey was 75 or 76 years old, he was accosted by two young muggers outside of his restaurant in New York City, and he knocked out both of them.

    There are old former boxers (who are “external” athletes) who have aged gracefully, both physically and mentally. And then there are other boxers (and other combat athletes) who start degenerating at a young age, for obvious reasons (CTE), or just plain letting themselves go once their fighting careers are over.

    The whole “internal/external” concept really took off in the early 20th century, when some scholars in China started taking up Taijiquan, Xingyiquan, and Baguazhang, and started writing books about those arts. Most of those scholars were not fighting men of their era, and practiced mainly for health purposes, as scholarly types in China were stereotypically weak and frail men. The vast majority of the real masters were illiterate. Naturally, the scholars played up the benefits and “higher level” of their systems over the supposedly inferior “external” Shaolin (and other) systems in the books they wrote, often with over-exaggerated or outright fictional stories of “internal” masters performing miraculous feats, such as masters sending opponents flying 30 feet away with an effortless push, and even levitating onto roofs.

    This is not to say that there is no validity to internal/external, but those actually refer to the level of one’s development, and not some super power vs mere muscle power. It also referred to whether you were an “inner door” student or a “common” student. In times past, martial arts in China (and Japan, and probably many other countries), “common” students received only the rudimentary teachings until they proved themselves and could be trusted; while “inner door” students received the “real” or “true” teachings and finer points of the applications. If you were an “inner door” student, you were “internal,” and if you were not, you were outside of the inner circle, therefore, “external.”

    In reality, high-level practitioners of ANY martial art can display aspects of qi development, even if that wasn’t their main focus (or wasn’t their focus at all). There are some Karate masters that display “qi”/“ki” development at a higher level, and age better, than some Taijiquan/Tai Chi practitioners. Regardless of what martial art you practice, or if you don’t practice any, how one ages is dependent on many factors. Genetics, lifestyle, environmental factors, attitude, and sometimes perhaps pure luck (although what ‘luck’ actually is, who knows?). And maybe a million other things. I’ve heard of masters with reportedly high-level qigong development who died fairly young (50s or 60s) of diseases. And others who lived healthy lives to ripe old ages. The fact is, everybody is going to age regardless, and some people will do so better than others.

    It is human nature that everybody wants to say that their method is better than all the rest. That attitude is alive and well today. A few years back, there was a news story about a lone hiker who strangled a mountain lion that had attacked him. Many BJJ pundits read “strangled” and immediately assumed “BJJ/rear naked choke.” They believed for a while that BJJ is a viable way to defend one’s self from a mountain lion attack, and there were articles written about how BJJ can protect you on the trail from wild animals. Until the full story came out from the hiker himself, who supposedly ‘strangled’ an attacking mountain lion in self-defense. It turned out that the mountain lion was a lone, starved cub that attacked him, and he had killed it by stepping on its neck. And he didn’t know BJJ. But the narrative of many BJJ practitioners when the story first came out was that the hiker had used BJJ to kill a mountain lion. Which is every bit as much fantasy BS as any story about an “internal” master with super powers.

    Jim
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