Martial Arts Experiences Discussion Thread

[max808]

The Legendary Speed of Ryan Garcia

I only recently heard of Ryan Garcia, and I’ve come to like him. Even though he has a big presence on social media, he can back it all up. His raw speed is phenomenal; at his quickest, it looks like undercranking (sped-up) photography. I’ve only seen a few guys with his level of speed; all were boxers.

Similar to YouTube comments some people leave on martial arts videos, Ryan Garcia is not without his doubters and detractors. Some saying that he has speed when hitting air outside of the ring, but can’t apply it inside of the ring. Some have said he can’t actually hit hard, and has no movement. Or that he hasn’t really fought anybody. Have they actually watched his work in the ring, or are they just stupid? Garcia has won most of his fights by KO. Whether or not his opponents so far have been elite level or not. IMO, he has boxing superstar written all over him, and in interviews he seems to have a good attitude. If any of his detractors ever stepped into a ring with him for some sparring, they would be begging off in no time.

https://youtu.be/XtolRzkL05k

https://youtu.be/3fM1aBdtOi4

Jim

I think you picked a winner Jim, kid's got lightning reflexes and some serious stopping power. That last bodyshot was vicious, reminded me of Schlemenko back in the day who dropped so many tough dudes with that signature liver shot. Still processing your previous post so please bear with me Sir.

[James Y]

The Legendary Speed of Ryan Garcia

I only recently heard of Ryan Garcia, and I’ve come to like him. Even though he has a big presence on social media, he can back it all up. His raw speed is phenomenal; at his quickest, it looks like undercranking (sped-up) photography. I’ve only seen a few guys with his level of speed; all were boxers.

Similar to YouTube comments some people leave on martial arts videos, Ryan Garcia is not without his doubters and detractors. Some saying that he has speed when hitting air outside of the ring, but can’t apply it inside of the ring. Some have said he can’t actually hit hard, and has no movement. Or that he hasn’t really fought anybody. Have they actually watched his work in the ring, or are they just stupid? Garcia has won most of his fights by KO. Whether or not his opponents so far have been elite level or not. IMO, he has boxing superstar written all over him, and in interviews he seems to have a good attitude. If any of his detractors ever stepped into a ring with him for some sparring, they would be begging off in no time.

https://youtu.be/XtolRzkL05k

https://youtu.be/3fM1aBdtOi4

Jim

I think you picked a winner Jim, kid's got lightning reflexes and some serious stopping power. That last bodyshot was vicious, reminded me of Schlemenko back in the day who dropped so many tough dudes with that signature liver shot. Still processing your previous post so please bear with me Sir.

No hurry, Max. Your input is welcome anytime.

Jim

[max808]

Thanks Jim, you're a true gentleman, usually the sign of a warrior monk/poet. A zen mind in a well maintained body, always striving for peace but si vis pacem, para bellum... and from the ones I've seen there's a lot of preemptive strikes like you say, when performed correctly and with ill intent will usually incapacitate an opponent, seen enough drunk haymakers and chemically induced spasms to realize that there's too many variables in the street that can put you at a serious disadvantage or even end your life in a heartbeat.

You mentioned that 12 year old kid with a baby browning that will take your life and not even lose much sleep over it. Or that blackbelt who got shot in Brazil... saw a high-level bjj instructor get jumped in a parking lot by half a dozen gangbangers and barely escape with his life, having sustained severe injuries in under a minute. No weapons involved just a couple of dudes in your face and more importantly the dude behind you... He can end a streetfight very quickly in my experience, best case scenario you get choked out, worst case scenario you get stabbed/shot from behind.

A hundred yards from my house there's an old church. A couple of years ago a local gang was beating up a lil kid in front of that church when my buddy walked by and recognized the victim as his friend's baby brother, so instinctively he stepped in and tried to defend him. Turns out there was a dozen of them and their leader was a boxing champion with some brass knuckles on him. Several years later my buddy, not a saint either, is still suffering the consequences from basically getting his entire face broken that day. And to think that you can achieve this with one well trained and well executed trip/sweep... that's scary. Like that Kafkaz spezial so aptly illustrated by Islam Makhachev and Khabib Nurmagomedov before him. But the thing I like most about Khabib is his humble and grateful nature. He likes nothing more than to shake hands before and after and even congratulate a defeated opponent, but when threatened they become vicious and fiercely protective of their family... ask Connor O'Connor how categorical Caucasian Mountain folk can be... "just send me location"

[James Y]

Thanks Jim, you're a true gentleman, usually the sign of a warrior monk/poet. A zen mind in a well maintained body, always striving for peace but si vis pacem, para bellum... and from the ones I've seen there's a lot of preemptive strikes like you say, when performed correctly and with ill intent will usually incapacitate an opponent, seen enough drunk haymakers and chemically induced spasms to realize that there's too many variables in the street that can put you at a serious disadvantage or even end your life in a heartbeat.

You mentioned that 12 year old kid with a baby browning that will take your life and not even lose much sleep over it. Or that blackbelt who got shot in Brazil... saw a high-level bjj instructor get jumped in a parking lot by half a dozen gangbangers and barely escape with his life, having sustained severe injuries in under a minute. No weapons involved just a couple of dudes in your face and more importantly the dude behind you... He can end a streetfight very quickly in my experience, best case scenario you get choked out, worst case scenario you get stabbed/shot from behind.

A hundred yards from my house there's an old church. A couple of years ago a local gang was beating up a lil kid in front of that church when my buddy walked by and recognized the victim as his friend's baby brother, so instinctively he stepped in and tried to defend him. Turns out there was a dozen of them and their leader was a boxing champion with some brass knuckles on him. Several years later my buddy, not a saint either, is still suffering the consequences from basically getting his entire face broken that day. And to think that you can achieve this with one well trained and well executed trip/sweep... that's scary. Like that Kafkaz spezial so aptly illustrated by Islam Makhachev and Khabib Nurmagomedov before him. But the thing I like most about Khabib is his humble and grateful nature. He likes nothing more than to shake hands before and after and even congratulate a defeated opponent, but when threatened they become vicious and fiercely protective of their family... ask Connor O'Connor how categorical Caucasian Mountain folk can be... "just send me location"

Thank you, and great post, Max!

Although, let me say that I am neither a warrior nor a poet. Nor anywhere near the level of a warrior monk. I just happen to be a practitioner and an enthusiast who’s been involved in martial arts for a long time, and have seen and experienced a lot of things. And I call things the way I see them. I am confident in myself and what I know, but I honestly still consider myself a “youngster” in terms of overall knowledge and experience. I’m always seeking to learn from others’ knowledge and experiences. No matter what, there is always someone who is better at something, and/or knows more. As someone once said: “Beyond every mountain is a higher mountain.” And beyond the tallest mountain is outer space.

Learning never ends. That’s why I have never called myself a “master,” “expert,” or any other such title. I’ve met people with only a few years of training and a black belt refer to themselves as “martial arts masters,” “grandmasters,” “self-defense experts,” or “warriors.” Something I could never do, and nor could I ever accept such a title from anybody else. To me, a warrior, especially, is a title reserved for those who have actually engaged in warfare, and not to be given or taken lightly.

Now, I can, and have, referred to others as “Master so-and-so” as a show of respect, if they had that title legitimately bestowed upon them by others. I just couldn’t accept such a title for myself. The only title I’ve ever accepted was ‘Sifu,’ which was appropriate during the few years that I taught my own class.

Jim

[James Y]

“Karate Chop” Knockout (video below)

I think I posted earlier in this thread about the effectiveness of edge-of-hand chops to the neck (I’m too lazy right now to search the thread for it). Possibly even posted this video(?). But if I did, it bears repeating: Open-hand chopping to the neck is a viable self-defense tool. Though to actually apply it naturally and effectively in a real situation against an uncooperative aggressor requires practice.

Most people consider the “Karate Chop” to be a cliche, a joke. Because it’s been seen in so many old movies and TV shows, such as the early James Bond films, Bad Day at Black Rock, Star Trek; even in the original Jonny Quest cartoon series. And from childhood, Westerners are conditioned to make fun of martial arts by screaming “Hiiii-yahhhh!” while making lame chopping motions in the air.

The stereotypical image of the “Karate Chop” (previously called the “Judo Chop”) belies its effectiveness. The entire point of the “knife hand” or “axe hand” strike is that the narrow edge of the hand produces a surface that can penetrate to a target (mainly the side of the neck and throat area) that a wider weapon, such as a closed fist, might not be able to access. The edge of the hand (as well as the edge of the forearm) conforms almost perfectly to the neck and throat areas.

This type of striking, whether backhand, forehand, straight ahead; palm up, palm down, etc., MUST be practiced diligently and constantly to become a natural action/reaction. The vast majority of men in particular, even those who are untrained, are conditioned by culture and habit to fight with closed fist punches, mainly to the opponent’s face and head. Closed-fist punching is considered “manly.” Men also tend to ball their hands into fists when they are angry or showing aggression. Under pressure, you will do what is most familiar and what comes naturally to you. Because very few people are willing to invest the time and effort to diligently train a striking method that cannot be used in sparring or competition, and isn’t as dramatic as closed-fist punches, a proper chop will not be a natural response for most people. Then they doubt its effectiveness, believing it to be ‘traditional’ mumbo-jumbo.

Yet that is exactly one of the reasons the “chop” is such a practical tool for real-life SD. REAL SD (unlike some frat boy brawl between two drunken buddies) is not a sparring match or a competition. If fighting is the only option in SD, it must be ended quickly and decisively, within a few seconds. The longer it goes, the greater the danger.

One benefit of chops to the neck is that they are unconventional; virtually NOBODY uses or even considers them, much less takes them seriously. Of course, you shouldn’t stand there like a fool and telegraph with your hands in stereotypical “pre-chopping” pose. You must train to strike the target from wherever your hands are, with no telegraphed movements, even if your arms are crossed with your lead hand under your chin. And in training, I emphasize moving in with a subtle hip torque while striking the target; when the strike is made, it should remain in contact with the target for about half a second, to ensure maximum penetration. If it lands correctly, there’s no need to “snap it back.”

The real-world practicality of open-hand strikes to the neck is why so many of the world’s top combatives instructors emphasize them over closed-fist punches to the head.

The video below is clearly a demonstration on what appears to be a “Doubting Thomas.” Luckily, the guy doing the chop only tapped the side of his neck lightly. Even so, it still knocked him out. It’s 100% legit, from the way he fell. The other guy is laughing. I’ve seen other videos where untrained kids chop other kids in the neck. Striking the side of the neck, even lightly, is not a joke, and can have serious repercussions, depending on the person and the situation. And of course, a chop to the throat can outright kill someone. Chopping to the neck is not a toy to be played with.

https://youtu.be/67isFmH5vQ8

Jim

[twinboysdad]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?time_contin ... e=emb_logo

Go to about 2:20, Kelly sets up an axe hand from index position

[James Y]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?time_contin ... e=emb_logo

Go to about 2:20, Kelly sets up an axe hand from index position

Thank you for posting that, twinboysdad.

Jim

[James Y]

Jon Bluming. (2 videos below)

The late Jon Bluming was a Dutch Judo champion, as well as a master of Kyokushinkai Karate, which he had trained directly under its founder, Mas Oyama. I’ve heard he was the best fighter that ever trained under Oyama. Jon Bluming was more than a beast; he was probably among the most dangerous real-life fighters of the past century, in competition AND on the street. I first heard of him through the writings of Robert W. Smith, who knew Bluming in Japan.

Bluming was very blunt; he was honest, probably to a fault. According to him, that, even more than his fighting ability, was why so many people in the martial arts feared him. In the second video below, Jon Bluming explodes some of the myths and mystique surrounding Mas Oyama, such as his supposed killing of bulls with his bare hands, and his supposedly having done a “300 man kumite (free sparring).”

Personally, I would rather know the truth about something (anything) than to live a lie. Even if certain truths are uncomfortable, or negatively affect my perception of someone. I’ve never understood martial artists that want to believe in exaggerations or outright lies. I can only respect Bluming for his honesty regarding the martial arts.

https://youtu.be/vPSv05AeXVc

https://youtu.be/riSuvkxLnUY

Jim

[Knivesinedc]

Hey y'all. This is a great thread. Lots of awesome experiences in here.

Myself, being a young man at 22, I have not had the pleasure of spending any major portion of my life doing martial arts. I did however train in Judo for about 4 years at a phenomenal dojo with wonderful people. I advanced my grappling skill to that of an average green belt (Our school listed green as one step before brown and then black) and my stand up to that of somewhere around a blue belt (directly below green). I have used techniques I learned in real life situations a handful of times, but what Judo really did for me was boost my confidence and self worth. It taught me that I could achieve a lot if I set realistic goals. It also gave me a wonderful friend and mentor, my sensei. He is an awesome man, teacher and also pastor, who ran his Dojo on donations for its entire existence as a way to get more kids and young people doing something productive instead of getting involved in gangs or the like. He would even provide a Gi if someone could not afford it. He is now the president of the US Judo Association and I am stoked for him. I have dabbled in other arts a handful of times, but never found another Dojo that felt like "home" to me.

[Naperville]

Hey y'all. This is a great thread. Lots of awesome experiences in here.

Myself, being a young man at 22, I have not had the pleasure of spending any major portion of my life doing martial arts. I did however train in Judo for about 4 years at a phenomenal dojo with wonderful people. I advanced my grappling skill to that of an average green belt (Our school listed green as one step before brown and then black) and my stand up to that of somewhere around a blue belt (directly below green). I have used techniques I learned in real life situations a handful of times, but what Judo really did for me was boost my confidence and self worth. It taught me that I could achieve a lot if I set realistic goals. It also gave me a wonderful friend and mentor, my sensei. He is an awesome man, teacher and also pastor, who ran his Dojo on donations for its entire existence as a way to get more kids and young people doing something productive instead of getting involved in gangs or the like. He would even provide a Gi if someone could not afford it. He is now the president of the US Judo Association and I am stoked for him. I have dabbled in other arts a handful of times, but never found another Dojo that felt like "home" to me.

Jim keeps the thread going. Keeps it interesting. The rest of us pitch in now and then. POST WHAT YOU KNOW!!!

4 years of Judo is excellent. I have half of that and at a very young age, not really applicable to dealing with adults.

Tomorrow is my big day! Going back out for walks, then doing core exercises to see what I can do to get my lower back, back on track.

[James Y]

Hey y'all. This is a great thread. Lots of awesome experiences in here.

Myself, being a young man at 22, I have not had the pleasure of spending any major portion of my life doing martial arts. I did however train in Judo for about 4 years at a phenomenal dojo with wonderful people. I advanced my grappling skill to that of an average green belt (Our school listed green as one step before brown and then black) and my stand up to that of somewhere around a blue belt (directly below green). I have used techniques I learned in real life situations a handful of times, but what Judo really did for me was boost my confidence and self worth. It taught me that I could achieve a lot if I set realistic goals. It also gave me a wonderful friend and mentor, my sensei. He is an awesome man, teacher and also pastor, who ran his Dojo on donations for its entire existence as a way to get more kids and young people doing something productive instead of getting involved in gangs or the like. He would even provide a Gi if someone could not afford it. He is now the president of the US Judo Association and I am stoked for him. I have dabbled in other arts a handful of times, but never found another Dojo that felt like "home" to me.

Thanks a lot for sharing your experiences!

Judo is an awesome martial art, and IMO, it’s probably the best art for a youngster to begin MA training. And it really is great that the dojo you trained at was such a good environment. There’s much to be said about finding the right dojo/school/etc. with which you have the best chemistry. I only got about a couple years total of Judo myself, so good on you! As Naperville said, 4 years of Judo is excellent..

Jim

[James Y]

Tomorrow is my big day! Going back out for walks, then doing core exercises to see what I can do to get my lower back, back on track.

Awesome, Naperville! Wishing you the best in getting better and feeling better! Keep us up on how it’s going!

Jim

[James Y]

Dealing with a walking time bomb - knife threat - de-escalation.

Not martial arts-related, but still relevant. This is a great educational video, as in the second half, it analyzes the mistakes the truck driver made that escalated the situation. And there are lots of people and situations that will escalate much faster than this.

Warning: This video contains profanity.

https://youtu.be/RL4B6_7k-R4

Jim

[James Y]

Sonny Liston: Boxing’s Most Intimidating and Unwanted Champion

https://youtu.be/skPKlBRNMOo

Jim

[max808]

Thanks Jim, you're a true gentleman, usually the sign of a warrior monk/poet. A zen mind in a well maintained body, always striving for peace but si vis pacem, para bellum... and from the ones I've seen there's a lot of preemptive strikes like you say, when performed correctly and with ill intent will usually incapacitate an opponent, seen enough drunk haymakers and chemically induced spasms to realize that there's too many variables in the street that can put you at a serious disadvantage or even end your life in a heartbeat.

You mentioned that 12 year old kid with a baby browning that will take your life and not even lose much sleep over it. Or that blackbelt who got shot in Brazil... saw a high-level bjj instructor get jumped in a parking lot by half a dozen gangbangers and barely escape with his life, having sustained severe injuries in under a minute. No weapons involved just a couple of dudes in your face and more importantly the dude behind you... He can end a streetfight very quickly in my experience, best case scenario you get choked out, worst case scenario you get stabbed/shot from behind.

A hundred yards from my house there's an old church. A couple of years ago a local gang was beating up a lil kid in front of that church when my buddy walked by and recognized the victim as his friend's baby brother, so instinctively he stepped in and tried to defend him. Turns out there was a dozen of them and their leader was a boxing champion with some brass knuckles on him. Several years later my buddy, not a saint either, is still suffering the consequences from basically getting his entire face broken that day. And to think that you can achieve this with one well trained and well executed trip/sweep... that's scary. Like that Kafkaz spezial so aptly illustrated by Islam Makhachev and Khabib Nurmagomedov before him. But the thing I like most about Khabib is his humble and grateful nature. He likes nothing more than to shake hands before and after and even congratulate a defeated opponent, but when threatened they become vicious and fiercely protective of their family... ask Connor O'Connor how categorical Caucasian Mountain folk can be... "just send me location"

Thank you, and great post, Max!

Although, let me say that I am neither a warrior nor a poet. Nor anywhere near the level of a warrior monk. I just happen to be a practitioner and an enthusiast who’s been involved in martial arts for a long time, and have seen and experienced a lot of things. And I call things the way I see them. I am confident in myself and what I know, but I honestly still consider myself a “youngster” in terms of overall knowledge and experience. I’m always seeking to learn from others’ knowledge and experiences. No matter what, there is always someone who is better at something, and/or knows more. As someone once said: “Beyond every mountain is a higher mountain.” And beyond the tallest mountain is outer space.

Learning never ends. That’s why I have never called myself a “master,” “expert,” or any other such title. I’ve met people with only a few years of training and a black belt refer to themselves as “martial arts masters,” “grandmasters,” “self-defense experts,” or “warriors.” Something I could never do, and nor could I ever accept such a title from anybody else. To me, a warrior, especially, is a title reserved for those who have actually engaged in warfare, and not to be given or taken lightly.

Now, I can, and have, referred to others as “Master so-and-so” as a show of respect, if they had that title legitimately bestowed upon them by others. I just couldn’t accept such a title for myself. The only title I’ve ever accepted was ‘Sifu,’ which was appropriate during the few years that I taught my own class.

Jim

Thanks Jim, per your request I'll refrain from calling you a warrior, was just illustrating that people who voluntarily apply that kind of discipline to themselves tend to share that military mind. Nothing to prove but prepared to [quote by General "Mad Dog" Mattis]. I won't mention his other nom de guerre but love the synchronicity. For more on that do check out "The men who stare at goats" starring George Clooney, based on a true story! Hilarious film but really from what I've read they laid the foundation back then for future asymmetrical warfare capabilities.

Like you say there's always someone out there who's bigger, faster, stronger and more experienced than us and we can learn something from everyone, even people who we might discount at first glance. Some predators even cultivate that harmless look in order to more easily approach their prey and gain their confidence. In nature that seems to be a highly effective tactic... Back in the dojo we had a white or black belt policy, nothing in between, which meant that there were some white belts around with pretty high level skills, sometimes to the surprise of visiting black belts.

Whether it be self proclaimed grandmasters or prophets, the proof is always in the pudding and there are so many agents of karma out there, just saw a guy whose mission in life it is to expose martial artists who pretend to be master. He looked Japanese and pretty mean and by expose I think he meant teach them a lesson or like Khabib said "make him humble". All the more reason to keep it real and keep our noses clean. That's me done rambling, I hope you have a great weekend Jim and stay safe out there!

Max

[Naperville]

Thanks Jim, per your request I'll refrain from calling you a warrior, was just illustrating that people who voluntarily apply that kind of discipline to themselves tend to share that military mind. Nothing to prove but prepared to [quote by General "Mad Dog" Mattis]. I won't mention his other nom de guerre but love the synchronicity. For more on that do check out "The men who stare at goats" starring George Clooney, based on a true story! Hilarious film but really from what I've read they laid the foundation back then for future asymmetrical warfare capabilities.

Like you say there's always someone out there who's bigger, faster, stronger and more experienced than us and we can learn something from everyone, even people who we might discount at first glance. Some predators even cultivate that harmless look in order to more easily approach their prey and gain their confidence. In nature that seems to be a highly effective tactic... Back in the dojo we had a white or black belt policy, nothing in between, which meant that there were some white belts around with pretty high level skills, sometimes to the surprise of visiting black belts.

Whether it be self proclaimed grandmasters or prophets, the proof is always in the pudding and there are so many agents of karma out there, just saw a guy whose mission in life it is to expose martial artists who pretend to be master. He looked Japanese and pretty mean and by expose I think he meant teach them a lesson or like Khabib said "make him humble". All the more reason to keep it real and keep our noses clean. That's me done rambling, I hope you have a great weekend Jim and stay safe out there!

Max

There are a lot of universities and martial arts studios that are nothing more than paper mills. On the other hand there are quite a few martial arts Masters and arts I wish that I had studied in/with. Time, distance and money are all a factor.

One thing that took me a long time to come to grips with OR understand was rank. It's really something hard to nail down the meaning and application of.

In most cases I look at rank as the completion of a specific set of techniques OR the completion of a set of substitute requirements(for a special student to complete). There are reasons for rank being earned/awarded/given, and the longer that you are involved the more that it makes sense, as long as everyone is on the up and up.

I've seen rank given for teaching, representation of, and the management of martial artists. This happened in BJJ, and it was not the 1st black belt, it was around the 4th degree black belt. You have to remember, martial arts is a business.

I've seen the title guro awarded to a person who was unable to complete the physical requirements of an FMA art, then they took the title of Master, and Grandmaster after decades of effort.

YOU have to decide who you are going to spend hundreds if not thousands of hours learning from. Martial artists of all ranks embody a wide range of personalities.

YOU have to decide who to befriend, and invite into your family, because after all, if you spend 3 to 5 years at a dojo, YOU are going to have to make long lasting friends with the people in that dojo, especially the head of the dojo.

I did not say that I agree with everything that I have seen regarding rank, and I have not named names, but when YOU realize it is not a competition with anyone other than yourself, YOU will be better off.

For the paper-mill dojo practitioners, a punch in the mouth is usually their first clue they hold no rank in anything to be taken seriously.

If YOU can DO IT, or if YOU can TEACH IT, then the rank is yours.

[max808]

Thanks Jim, per your request I'll refrain from calling you a warrior, was just illustrating that people who voluntarily apply that kind of discipline to themselves tend to share that military mind. Nothing to prove but prepared to [quote by General "Mad Dog" Mattis]. I won't mention his other nom de guerre but love the synchronicity. For more on that do check out "The men who stare at goats" starring George Clooney, based on a true story! Hilarious film but really from what I've read they laid the foundation back then for future asymmetrical warfare capabilities.

Like you say there's always someone out there who's bigger, faster, stronger and more experienced than us and we can learn something from everyone, even people who we might discount at first glance. Some predators even cultivate that harmless look in order to more easily approach their prey and gain their confidence. In nature that seems to be a highly effective tactic... Back in the dojo we had a white or black belt policy, nothing in between, which meant that there were some white belts around with pretty high level skills, sometimes to the surprise of visiting black belts.

Whether it be self proclaimed grandmasters or prophets, the proof is always in the pudding and there are so many agents of karma out there, just saw a guy whose mission in life it is to expose martial artists who pretend to be master. He looked Japanese and pretty mean and by expose I think he meant teach them a lesson or like Khabib said "make him humble". All the more reason to keep it real and keep our noses clean. That's me done rambling, I hope you have a great weekend Jim and stay safe out there!

Max

There are a lot of universities and martial arts studios that are nothing more than paper mills. On the other hand there are quite a few martial arts Masters and arts I wish that I had studied in/with. Time, distance and money are all a factor.

One thing that took me a long time to come to grips with OR understand was rank. It's really something hard to nail down the meaning and application of.

In most cases I look at rank as the completion of a specific set of techniques OR the completion of a set of substitute requirements(for a special student to complete). There are reasons for rank being earned/awarded/given, and the longer that you are involved the more that it makes sense, as long as everyone is on the up and up.

I've seen rank given for teaching, representation of, and the management of martial artists. This happened in BJJ, and it was not the 1st black belt, it was around the 4th degree black belt. You have to remember, martial arts is a business.

I've seen the title guro awarded to a person who was unable to complete the physical requirements of an FMA art, then they took the title of Master, and Grandmaster after decades of effort.

YOU have to decide who you are going to spend hundreds if not thousands of hours learning from. Martial artists of all ranks embody a wide range of personalities.

YOU have to decide who to befriend, and invite into your family, because after all, if you spend 3 to 5 years at a dojo, YOU are going to have to make long lasting friends with the people in that dojo, especially the head of the dojo.

I did not say that I agree with everything that I have seen regarding rank, and I have not named names, but when YOU realize it is not a competition with anyone other than yourself, YOU will be better off.

For the paper-mill dojo practitioners, a punch in the mouth is usually their first clue they hold no rank in anything to be taken seriously.

If YOU can DO IT, or if YOU can TEACH IT, then the rank is yours.

Thank you for your input Sir, all valid points. From your use of kapitals I take it you're curious after my rank or credentials? The answer is simple, they're non-existent. I did some judo as a kid, then some aikido as an adolescent, held no rank in either and have never claimed to be an expert or master at anything. In fact my only goal in life is to learn something new every day, knowing enough to know that I don't know nearly enough and need to learn some more. I am however confident in myself and I can see how that would rub some people the wrong way. That's also the most I've said I in a very long time, reason I like to use we and us more. Not looking for validation, I'm just honored to be an insignificant part of this distinguished community.
Have a great Sunday!

Max

[James Y]

Good discussion, Max and Naperville.

To me, rank, as in belt ranking and certificates, doesn’t really mean much. Unless maybe someone plans to open a brick-and-mortar school and be a professional teacher. Then I guess the higher rankings will sound more impressive to prospective students.

When I earned my 1st-degree black belt ranking in Kenpo at 17 years old, yes, achieving the black belt WAS important to me back then. After I earned it (after the third attempt; my Kenpo teacher didn’t hand out black belts like Halloween candy), I realized that it was just a black-colored belt. The heavens didn’t open up, and the angel choir didn’t sing afterwards. And my teacher had even said that black belt only means you’ve proven that you’re serious and ready to learn.

Later, at the two Kung Fu schools I trained at in Taiwan, there were no belt ranking systems. Everyone wore a black sash, which was mostly to hold your internal organs in place when practicing power generation techniques. Everyone knew who had the higher skill levels. However, if another student started before you, even by a day, they were your senior, and you addressed them as Shixiong (in Cantonese: Sihing; elder brother/classmate) or Shijie (in Cantonese, Sije; elder sister/classmate). Even if your abilities exceeded theirs, they were always your senior, and you were always their junior in the school. That’s as close to ranking as you got in those schools.

Back in the States again, my Choy Lee Fut sifu instituted a sash ranking system, for quality control, and also because there was a lot of material we had to learn, and it helped him keep track of who was where in the syllabus. I reached 2nd-degree black sash in CLF, and both the 1st and 2nd-degree tests were as hard as when I earned my Kenpo black belt almost 20 years earlier. But by then, the ranking itself meant little to me.

There is no consistency in what a black belt ranking means across the board. It can mean MUCH more in one school than in another. In some schools with very high standards, it can mean a lot. And in such schools, the lower belts are often superior in ability than black belts in schools with lower standards.

I’ve seen schools where children as young as 10 years old (and even younger!) had black belts. IMO, that’s ridiculous. It means that the rank itself means nothing. And also, as I mentioned in an earlier post, when celebrities or politicians are awarded “honorary black belts.” If you hand out black belts like fun-sized Snickers bars at Halloween, then that’s all they’re worth. In such schools, the promise of black belt is put out there like a carrot dangling in front of a horse, to hopefully keep the student interested and that money coming in.

Now that I train on my own, I wear no belt or sash, only comfortable clothes (and sometimes my street clothes). The only truth for me is my own development, not any ranks I may have earned in the past.

Jim

[Naperville]

Thank you for your input Sir, all valid points. From your use of kapitals I take it you're curious after my rank or credentials? The answer is simple, they're non-existent. I did some judo as a kid, then some aikido as an adolescent, held no rank in either and have never claimed to be an expert or master at anything. In fact my only goal in life is to learn something new every day, knowing enough to know that I don't know nearly enough and need to learn some more. I am however confident in myself and I can see how that would rub some people the wrong way. That's also the most I've said I in a very long time, reason I like to use we and us more. Not looking for validation, I'm just honored to be an insignificant part of this distinguished community.
Have a great Sunday!

Max

The capitals? Well, sort of. I just wanted whoever is reading the post to realize it is all within them. It is a personal struggle.

I know one person who has the title of guro, master and grandmaster who is looked at by his peers as having earned the titles, yet an outsider would not believe the person earned the titles.

When you are a student, you are of course not the peer of the instructor. The instructors peers are other instructors.

I've studied many arts but also never stuck around to be awarded a black belt, much to my dismay in a few cases. Life goes on.

[max808]

Out of respect I should mention our shihan Tomita. He had the privilege of studying under the founder of aikido in Osaka and started our school. My nostalgia got the better of me so I looked online and found this on the official site:

...
Strength does not lie in opposing power but in harmonizing with the flow of power, like a stream or river. Cooperation is the absolute movement. We can find strength in unification.
...

As it turns out our dojo isn't even listed anymore, we were always a bit of the riff raff of the bunch and more often than not trained with only a handful of people. Sometimes it was just me and my buddy who was senpai (senior student) getting one on one with our sensei. What a privilege in hindsight... very grateful for that period in my life and still call my buddy regularly after 20 years of mental jiujitsu...