Martial Arts Experiences Discussion Thread

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Re: Martial Arts Experiences Discussion Thread

#281

Post by James Y »

Blood and Guts: The First World Professional Karate Championships, 1968.

This lost videotape (at the bottom of this post) from 1968, which was recovered and released in the late 1990s, is a snapshot in history of the 1960s Karate tournament style of fighting. The men doing the commentating in the 1990s are John Graden and the late Joe Lewis.

This vintage tape has historical value, because it features many of the top American tournament Karate fighters of the time period. However, Chuck Norris (who was an active competitor at the time) had been unable to participate.

The man who produced the event and gave the original commentary was the late, legendary Jim Harrison, who also explained the rules and demonstrated the techniques before the matches. Jim Harrison was one of the most respected (and feared) American martial artists, and for good reason. Bruce Lee himself listed Jim Harrison as one of the two men (along with Mike Stone) that he would NOT have wanted to face in a real street fight. Chuck Norris has stated, “Jim Harrison saved my life once; he stopped his punch an inch from my face.” Here is a history of Jim Harrison in his obituary:
https://missoulian.com/news/local/obitu ... db974.html

The participants were:
1) Fred Wren.
2) Joe Lewis (legendary karate fighter who later pioneered the sport of American kickboxing).
3) David Moon (who went on to become “the father of Mexican Tae Kwon Do” in 1969).
4) Bob Wall (who later became more well-known for fighting Bruce Lee in Way of the Dragon and Enter the Dragon).
5) Pat Burleson.
6) Skipper Mullins (known as the first “super kicker” of American Karate, but which isn’t as evident in this tape).

The referees included:
1) Robert Trias (The first Caucasian to open a commercial Karate school in the mainland US, in Arizona, in 1946).
2) Allen Steen (who had once defeated both Joe Lewis and Chuck Norris in competition on the same day).
3) Lewis Angel.

For anyone who may want to be critical of this vintage point Karate fighting, comparing it to modern MMA, give it a rest. This was from a certain time period, and anyone who thinks these men weren’t tough and weren’t capable of having a real fight are oblivious to the fact that several of these men HAD been combat-proven in real fights, far removed from sport Karate tournaments. Especially Jim Harrison. Chuck Norris once stated that he witnessed skinny Skipper Mullins, who was overwhelmed in this tournament, knock out two large cowboys who had tried to bully him, in the parking lot of a restaurant in Texas. As always, do not underestimate others based on first (often erroneous) impressions.

NOTE: You’ll need to skip forward past the first 45 seconds for the actual video to start.

https://youtu.be/UNIwtVe63LM

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Re: Martial Arts Experiences Discussion Thread

#282

Post by Naperville »

That was fantastic! I even learned to grab the sleeve before throwing a sidekick. Good stuff!!!
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Re: Martial Arts Experiences Discussion Thread

#283

Post by vivi »

Jim,

hope you don't mind me sharing these here. I filmed a couple of short clips today while testing out some new MMA style gloves.

https://streamable.com/g9kkqv
https://streamable.com/nfe5y7
https://streamable.com/y2ue1n
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Re: Martial Arts Experiences Discussion Thread

#284

Post by James Y »

vivi wrote:
Fri Apr 09, 2021 3:38 pm
Jim,

hope you don't mind me sharing these here. I filmed a couple of short clips today while testing out some new MMA style gloves.

https://streamable.com/g9kkqv
https://streamable.com/nfe5y7
https://streamable.com/y2ue1n

By all means, feel free to share, vivi. Thanks for sharing!

Jim
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Re: Martial Arts Experiences Discussion Thread

#285

Post by James Y »

Old-school Karate match, at the 1968 U.S. Open Karate Championship.

Rare footage (poor quality). Also, the music added to the video is more appropriate for a phone call on hold.

Jim Harrison (L) vs Fred Wren (R). Both were among the most feared Karate fighters of their era. Fred Wren was so violent that many competitors refused to fight him. Fred won this match, but both fighters had to go to the hospital afterwards. Like all of the 1960s tournament matches, this was fought with no pads or other safety equipment, and full-contact, at least to the body. These guys were not only top Karate tournament fighters, but could also fight “for real.” There is nothing flashy here. This type of tournament Karate was MUCH closer to real-world, non-sport fighting than the later open Karate tournaments, which morphed into a game of pitter-patter point tag.

How far the quality of Karate in the US has fallen since those days, where nowadays Karate has become relegated to a kiddie activity, and it’s not uncommon for an 8 year old to have a “black belt.”

https://youtu.be/Iyd0WT2IWJk

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Re: Martial Arts Experiences Discussion Thread

#286

Post by Loki.88 »

I trained in FMA to enhance my proficiancy with the stick and the blade, trained in Krav Maga because i believe it's a great combat proven system and BJJ for the grappling and takedowns. Trained in Aikido mainly for throws and rolls. I took from each system what i needed for my job back then. Trained in practical shooting as well. Handgun, longgun and machinegun.
Don't need those skills anymore but thinking about starting with FMA again after corona.
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Re: Martial Arts Experiences Discussion Thread

#287

Post by James Y »

Loki.88 wrote:
Wed Apr 14, 2021 3:46 pm
I trained in FMA to enhance my proficiancy with the stick and the blade, trained in Krav Maga because i believe it's a great combat proven system and BJJ for the grappling and takedowns. Trained in Aikido mainly for throws and rolls. I took from each system what i needed for my job back then. Trained in practical shooting as well. Handgun, longgun and machinegun.
Don't need those skills anymore but thinking about starting with FMA again after corona.

Thanks for sharing, Loki.88.

Jim
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Re: Martial Arts Experiences Discussion Thread

#288

Post by James Y »

Be Wary of Absolutists.

The other night I was browsing the Internet and found an article where someone says, “You need to stop using (or practicing) open-hand strikes (such as slaps) for self-defense RIGHT NOW.” Or something to that effect. When I read further, it (predictably) continued on about how everybody who learns self-defense MUST learn only MMA (Muay Thai, BJJ, wrestling and boxing), because it is the only proven method effective in real fights. He said that since nobody has ever been KO’d by a slap in an MMA match, that slaps are therefore ineffective for SD.

First off, I neither know (nor care) how many actual life or death self-defense situations the author who wrote that article has been in, but I can safely guess none. A life or death SD situation is not some drunken frat boy brawl, or an “honor fight” to prove one’s manhood or social standing in your group, or a “style vs style” matchup to prove whose style is superior on the mat.

While I personally have NOT been in hundreds (or even a dozen) street fights and SD situations, I have had enough real experiences to know there are differences. A mutual combat is just that; a mostly avoidable and stupid attempt at social dominance and ego gratification. While you may have to defend yourself in such a situation, it is not self-defense as in a setup, followed by a seemingly sudden, unprovoked attack by a predatory criminal. In the latter type of situation, you will have zero time to assume a fighting pose and work out some strategy to overcome your opponent (assuming it’s only one opponent, and he/she’s unarmed). Such attacks occur much differently from social violence ego fights or sports fighting contests.

My purpose in posting this is not to put down MMA; it is to say that when it comes to information about self-defense online (and there’s a LOT of it), caveat emptor (“let the buyer beware”). Some things will work for some people, and other things will work for others. Many people who write about SD know little about what actual SD entails, but are basing their opinions on a ‘system’ perspective that is identical to wild-eyed religious zealotry. If someone is interested in real-world SD, whenever someone says (or writes), “Don’t do that, but do what I do, because my way is the only true and effective way, and everything else sucks,” I would advise that you run, not walk, away from them.

All of the best legitimate SD combatives experts who have had tons of real-world experience will have their own viewpoints, BUT the difference is they really know what they’re talking about, and tend to be far less cult-like in their viewpoints. Think for yourself and find and use whatever works for YOU. The ones who will try to make you think like they do tend to be either practitioners of combat sports or traditional martial arts with little to zero experience outside of sporting competitions, or sparring in the dojo/dojang/kwoon/gym.

Heck, take whatever I have to say with a grain of salt if it doesn’t fit your beliefs. But from personal experience, I know for a fact that open-hand slaps are a devastatingly effective SD tool, if you know how to deliver them with full-body torque, and how and when to actually apply them. The above-mentioned article by the MMA guy says it will only make your attacker mad. He used the “Stockton Slap” as an example. The so-called “Stockton Slap” is not the same as a ‘power slap’ intended to stun or KO a grown man. It shows the author really doesn’t know what he’s talking about when it comes to open-hand strikes in SD, or even just street fights (which should always be avoided, if at all possible)..

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Re: Martial Arts Experiences Discussion Thread

#289

Post by vivi »

Anyone that thinks palm strikes and slaps are worthless is an uneducated fool.

https://youtube.com/watch?v=7L_AuvaWIh4

Bas Rutten has KO's on his record from those techniques.
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Re: Martial Arts Experiences Discussion Thread

#290

Post by James Y »

vivi wrote:
Mon Apr 19, 2021 3:07 pm
Anyone that thinks palm strikes and slaps are worthless is an uneducated fool.

https://youtube.com/watch?v=7L_AuvaWIh4

Bas Rutten has KO's on his record from those techniques.

Exactly.

There are also different ways you can land it, too. Bas Rutten uses a palm-heel hook. Another method is using the entire flat of the palm, as in the example below:

https://youtu.be/Vy2QmzVbR8c

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Re: Martial Arts Experiences Discussion Thread

#291

Post by James Y »

Catastrophic leg kick self-leg breaks (three examples below):

THIS is one of the reasons I do not incorporate the Muay Thai-style round kick to the legs in my personal toolbox. Obviously, I am not saying that nobody should. But these are only three out of several instances of the same type of break I know about that have occurred in MMA bouts; the kicker’s shin breaks when his kick is either leg blocked, it lands wrong, or his kick makes contact as he intended, and the kicker suffers the same result.

BTW, I have never seen this happen to a “pure” Muay Thai fighter in a traditional Muay Thai bout. Does traditional Muay Thai incorporate more meticulous or extensive leg/shin conditioning, because they are only concentrating on one discipline, as opposed to making MT only a part of a mixed arsenal? Or because most MT fighters in Thailand (for example) begin their MT training in early childhood? I don’t know. I’m not saying this hasn’t also happened in traditional MT; I’m sure it has, somewhere.

IMO, the MT-style leg kick is not a technique that should be incorporated without extensive time-proven, traditional conditioning methods. Of course, these types of catastrophic breaks aren’t common, and someone could use the kick without incorporating all the traditional methods and never suffer such a break. Personally, I wouldn’t take the chance.

Since I’m not a sports fighter and haven’t competed in any kind of sport fighting match since 1997, I personally prefer low side kicks (outside edge of foot and heel) and cross or oblique kicks (inside edge of foot and heel) for kicks to the legs (knee and below).

Chris Williams breaks leg vs Jonathan King:

https://youtu.be/BBcK46-mmA8

Anderson Silva breaks leg against Chris Weidman:

https://youtu.be/s1QNT-k7CUc

Ironically, the exact same thing happened to Chris Weidman in his fight against Urijah Hall:

https://youtu.be/1k11H6KIJA4

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Re: Martial Arts Experiences Discussion Thread

#292

Post by Naperville »

Loki.88 wrote:
Wed Apr 14, 2021 3:46 pm
I trained in FMA to enhance my proficiancy with the stick and the blade, trained in Krav Maga because i believe it's a great combat proven system and BJJ for the grappling and takedowns. Trained in Aikido mainly for throws and rolls. I took from each system what i needed for my job back then. Trained in practical shooting as well. Handgun, longgun and machinegun.
Don't need those skills anymore but thinking about starting with FMA again after corona.
I don't know your age but acquainting yourself with FMA(knife handling) at any age is a great idea.

Given that a 65 to 80 year old man or woman can flash a tiny 3 inch blade can stop an attacker cold without even harming anyone, I think FMA is excellent for self defense. Naysayers like to call it "brandishing" but I like to call it stayin alive.

Edge awareness that comes with FMA and the ability to use an edged weapon in a tight spot is great knowledge to have when the SHTF.
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Re: Martial Arts Experiences Discussion Thread

#293

Post by Naperville »

James Y wrote:
Mon Apr 26, 2021 9:00 am
Catastrophic leg kick self-leg breaks (three examples below):

THIS is one of the reasons I do not incorporate the Muay Thai-style round kick to the legs in my personal toolbox. Obviously, I am not saying that nobody should. But these are only three out of several instances of the same type of break I know about that have occurred in MMA bouts; the kicker’s shin breaks when his kick is either leg blocked, it lands wrong, or his kick makes contact as he intended, and the kicker suffers the same result.

BTW, I have never seen this happen to a “pure” Muay Thai fighter in a traditional Muay Thai bout. Does traditional Muay Thai incorporate more meticulous or extensive leg/shin conditioning, because they are only concentrating on one discipline, as opposed to making MT only a part of a mixed arsenal? Or because most MT fighters in Thailand (for example) begin their MT training in early childhood? I don’t know. I’m not saying this hasn’t also happened in traditional MT; I’m sure it has, somewhere.

IMO, the MT-style leg kick is not a technique that should be incorporated without extensive time-proven, traditional conditioning methods. Of course, these types of catastrophic breaks aren’t common, and someone could use the kick without incorporating all the traditional methods and never suffer such a break. Personally, I wouldn’t take the chance.

Since I’m not a sports fighter and haven’t competed in any kind of sport fighting match since 1997, I personally prefer low side kicks (outside edge of foot and heel) and cross or oblique kicks (inside edge of foot and heel) for kicks to the legs (knee and below).
...
Jim
Kicking to the outside or inside of the knee, just above the patella is what ends fights. Kicking to the shin has always been dangerous.

Muay Thai fighters would definitely have better conditioned legs than an MMA fighter. But I think they would have it drummed in to their heads not to kick to the shin, except with a heel.
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Re: Martial Arts Experiences Discussion Thread

#294

Post by VashHash »

Naperville wrote:
Mon Apr 26, 2021 9:51 am
Naysayers like to call it "brandishing" but I like to call it stayin alive.
The hypocrisy. Some states you can legally defend yourself but if you brandish without harming someone you're in the wrong. Especially if someone has it on their cell phone. I've met some people who lack common sense and can only learn from physical pain. No matter what you tell them or try to show them. They're too tough and it wouldn't work on them.....until it does and it's too late now.
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Re: Martial Arts Experiences Discussion Thread

#295

Post by Naperville »

VashHash wrote:
Mon Apr 26, 2021 10:09 am
Naperville wrote:
Mon Apr 26, 2021 9:51 am
Naysayers like to call it "brandishing" but I like to call it stayin alive.
The hypocrisy. Some states you can legally defend yourself but if you brandish without harming someone you're in the wrong. Especially if someone has it on their cell phone. I've met some people who lack common sense and can only learn from physical pain. No matter what you tell them or try to show them. They're too tough and it wouldn't work on them.....until it does and it's too late now.
I do understand why brandishing might be a crime, but for those who employ it in self defense, it is just one more step to actually employing the knife.

Many in FMA do not like the idea of brandishing. While it is showing your hand, it's worked for me 2 times and I avoided cutting anyone! Thugs stood down to let me walk away.
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Re: Martial Arts Experiences Discussion Thread

#296

Post by James Y »

Naperville wrote:
Mon Apr 26, 2021 9:55 am
Kicking to the outside or inside of the knee, just above the patella is what ends fights. Kicking to the shin has always been dangerous.

Muay Thai fighters would definitely have better conditioned legs than an MMA fighter. But I think they would have it drummed in to their heads not to kick to the shin, except with a heel.

In that third clip, Weidman’s kick looked to have landed on the outside of his opponent’s knee, and his shin still snapped. Also, the shin could be leg blocked (more likely in a bout than on the street) and break from that. It makes me wonder if some of those incidences were the result of an accumulation of trauma (possibly stress fractures?) to the shin area over time, and we are only seeing the catastrophic end result.

I’ve seen some people try to incorporate the ‘Thai-style round kick’ to the legs without having any special training or conditioning at all, simply because they see fighters doing it on TV and online.

Kicking to the shin (and knee) is safe if you side kick or oblique (cross) kick it, especially if you’re wearing shoes, which you most likely will be in a SD situation away from home. Kicking to the shin may or may not end the fight in and of itself (unles it breaks the shin), but it can be a great lead-in to a follow-up. If someone is aggressing towards you, they will have to step forward, and when their weight comes down on to their forward leg is when it’s effective, unless maybe he’s a wrestler shooting in on you. The ‘wrestler shooting in’ scenario is more likely to be encountered in a ‘mutual combat’ or ‘ego’ type of fight or brawl, than in a true SD situation.

Jim
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Re: Martial Arts Experiences Discussion Thread

#297

Post by vivi »

James Y wrote:
Mon Apr 26, 2021 9:00 am
Catastrophic leg kick self-leg breaks (three examples below):

THIS is one of the reasons I do not incorporate the Muay Thai-style round kick to the legs in my personal toolbox. Obviously, I am not saying that nobody should. But these are only three out of several instances of the same type of break I know about that have occurred in MMA bouts; the kicker’s shin breaks when his kick is either leg blocked, it lands wrong, or his kick makes contact as he intended, and the kicker suffers the same result.

BTW, I have never seen this happen to a “pure” Muay Thai fighter in a traditional Muay Thai bout. Does traditional Muay Thai incorporate more meticulous or extensive leg/shin conditioning, because they are only concentrating on one discipline, as opposed to making MT only a part of a mixed arsenal? Or because most MT fighters in Thailand (for example) begin their MT training in early childhood? I don’t know. I’m not saying this hasn’t also happened in traditional MT; I’m sure it has, somewhere.

IMO, the MT-style leg kick is not a technique that should be incorporated without extensive time-proven, traditional conditioning methods. Of course, these types of catastrophic breaks aren’t common, and someone could use the kick without incorporating all the traditional methods and never suffer such a break. Personally, I wouldn’t take the chance.

Since I’m not a sports fighter and haven’t competed in any kind of sport fighting match since 1997, I personally prefer low side kicks (outside edge of foot and heel) and cross or oblique kicks (inside edge of foot and heel) for kicks to the legs (knee and below).

Chris Williams breaks leg vs Jonathan King:

https://youtu.be/BBcK46-mmA8

Anderson Silva breaks leg against Chris Weidman:

https://youtu.be/s1QNT-k7CUc

Ironically, the exact same thing happened to Chris Weidman in his fight against Urijah Hall:

https://youtu.be/1k11H6KIJA4

Jim
Watching that live was nuts.

I like leg kicks because most people don't know how to defend them. Even when I used to spar in a dedicated MMA gym only one person I fought checked them. On the rest it was so easy to land them.
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Re: Martial Arts Experiences Discussion Thread

#298

Post by James Y »

vivi wrote:
Mon Apr 26, 2021 4:21 pm
I like leg kicks because most people don't know how to defend them. Even when I used to spar in a dedicated MMA gym only one person I fought checked them. On the rest it was so easy to land them.

It’s interesting that in an MMA gym, where they presumably they teach Muay Thai (or enough of it to get by), that they wouldn’t emphasize at least some rudimentary defense against leg kicks. Unless they did teach it, but the students just weren’t using them during sparring.

Of course, there are also some fighters who don’t work at avoiding or otherwise defending against punches. Some guys find it more fun, and much easier, to just stand and trade punches back and forth, and it excites the people who may be watching. A macho thing, I guess. Until they start slurring their words, along with developing cognitive problems down the line.

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Re: Martial Arts Experiences Discussion Thread

#299

Post by vivi »

I think a lot of it is that most people haven't taken a hard leg kick, so they underestimate how debilitating they can be. One good one is enough to impair mobility and leave a bruise for weeks. Of course sparring in shin guards makes them easier to take, but it's still bad habit to ignore them.

You'll even see it in top level MMA, which blows my mind. Conor vs Dustin 2 comes to mind. You'd think McGregor had never drilled leg kick defense based on that performance. Which is weird because they were an essential part of his gameplan when he squeeked out a decision against Nate Diaz in their rematch.
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Re: Martial Arts Experiences Discussion Thread

#300

Post by VooDooChild »

vivi wrote: I think a lot of it is that most people haven't taken a hard leg kick, so they underestimate how debilitating they can be. One good one is enough to impair mobility and leave a bruise for weeks. Of course sparring in shin guards makes them easier to take, but it's still bad habit to ignore them.

You'll even see it in top level MMA, which blows my mind. Conor vs Dustin 2 comes to mind. You'd think McGregor had never drilled leg kick defense based on that performance. Which is weird because they were an essential part of his gameplan when he squeeked out a decision against Nate Diaz in their rematch.
Ill turn my thigh out, do that old school raised leg/ dropped elbow block, or check with a snap kick if I can. If someone successfully lands more than about two leg kicks on me then Im gonna try to go to the ground or change up something quick, maybe grab a big stick.

The Rick Roufus fight is beyond brutal. Watching how many leg kicks he took with basically no defense. I will say this he must have been insanely tough.
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